barefoot and peripheral loading

[Kelpie]

ok guys, I know this is a bit of a thorny issue but I raise it only because I'm desparate!

I keep my guys barefoot and they seem to have somewhat of a difference of opinion as to whether they should peripherally load or they should be using their soles/ frogs....

..... one guy in particular hardly ever drops down any hoof wall and he has the most awesome rock crunching feet ever (sole isn't actually very convex but nice big frog and presumably well calloused). He's awsome and never unsound and if they could all be like him I'd be laughing!

At the other end of the extreeme, one of my guys who was previously rock crunching (albeit with generally a bit of hoof wall coming down so realistically peripherally loading most/ all of the time) then was trimmed down so the hoof wall was flush with the sole and was then unsound He's now grown down a bit more hoof wall and is back sound again.

So, in the exact same circumstances and in full work, I have two horses who seem to have different requirements. The one first lad fits the model that most barefoot trimmers seem to work to but this doesn't seem to be so with the second lad who seems to prefer to peripherally load.

Thing is, for the one that peripherally loads, do I just say well, that's how he's sound so fine that's how it should be for him, or should I be looking to change it (not sure how if it makes him unsound??).... so many people seem to say that peripheral loading is bad but actually there's a lot of shod horses out there and they're surely not all knackered because they peripherally load due to their shoes??

Help!

thanx

 

[Kallibear]

I've got the same:

Ones got dinner-plate flat feet. They are very short and have next to no wall, so she walks almost entirely on her sole callus and frogs. But she bounces over all surfaces without a care. (despite being obviously squint, and often crack in dry weather)

Other has classically beautiful looking feet - symetrical with super quality horn. Yet he needs a little length on them to be comfortable. If trimmed short he become a little footy until it grows back. Def a 'peripheral wall loader'.

I've stopped worrying about it and let them grow the feet they need. I never balance them as they wear the balance they require with the large amount of road work they do and very rarely do I need to take any heel or wall off. All i usually do is roll them.

 

[Yertis]

Totally agree, horse needs the hoof that keeps them comfortable. My Arab & TB both like a bit of wall to be comfortable, the 2 cobs don't like any wall at all at the quarters and toe and have big feet, happy on the sole callus and have big hard frogs, heels about 1/8" longer than frogs. Don't know if weight of horse and size of feet has anything to do with it, the 4 Shetlands all like a bit of wall as well

 

[cptrayes]

I'd probably just accept what the horse stays sound with, but it would also be very interesting to test him over some really big stones on an ungiving surface and know whether he is sounder because the sole is being held off the floor and actually has some sole sensitivity.

If he does, your choice then would probably be between fussing to fine tune his feed and letting him grow hoof wall, and the latter is clearly easier and he and you are both happy, so why not??

 

[Kelpie]

thanx guys.... (and glad I'm not the only one in this situation then!!)

...... so long as he has a bit of hoof wall down, he'll walk over flinty tracks no probs, tho isn't keen on trotting so I tend not to ask him to trot over the really rough stuff..... does that count as sole sensitivity??

Have tried the various things of on the grass/ off the grass/ on grass at night only/ on a track, etc, and they don't seem to make much difference, to be honest. He hardly gets any hard feed (sugar beet + linseed) .... so I'm guessing it's not what he is getting that would cause any sensitivity - tho could it be something he's not getting food wise?

I'm figuring having a bit of a hoof wall down is still a better compromise overall than having shoes tho??

 

[Yertis]

Sounds like you're doing o.k. have you read Feet First? http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/Rockley_Farm/"Feet_First".html

 

[Kelpie]

yup, got feet first

 

[cptrayes]

I'd certainly go for hoof wall before shoes. Yes, unwillingness to trot on stones would be a sign of sole and/or white line sensitivity, but really, if that's all it is then you don't have much of a problem if you can avoid doing it (I can't, with a hunter).

Is your sugar beet molassed? My rehab does better on unmolassed. I wold also be feeding 50g brewers yeast and 25 g of magnesium oxide.

You could have a mineral imbalance. My friend's land and water supply is high in manganese, preventing absorption of copper (implicated in insulin regulation) and zinc (quality of hair and skin) and one of her horses was not capable on stones until she started feeding it a half dose of Copper Trition.

On the whole though, you really don't seem to have too much to worry about

 

[Kelpie]

thanx cptrayes

It's speedibeet so I think that's unmolassed

The different minerals stuff sends me a bit potty - as it's just so darn complicated.... feeding more of x means you also need to feed more of y and could mean that z's absoption then increased so feed less of that, etc. I'm a bit scared, therefore, to try to go with trying to supplement specific minerals..... but is that a common concern?/ how do you overcome it?

 

[cptrayes]

I'm told that some people are doing very well with difficult horses with double strength Farriers Formula fed at a double dose - that's a 4x dose, so pretty expensive. I know of others who are spending fortunes on analysis of hay and grazing, which vary from batch to batch and field to field.

Personally I trust the horse to be largely "self balancing" if allowed enough variety in the grazing, but I do know that I have manganese problems too and so I supplement copper, and as you say, it's a minefield!

If you only graze one field and can get an analysis done, then it might be worth it. The people on UKNHCP or someone here might tell you where to get it done. If you find you have one thing missing, like copper, or one too much, like manganese, and can sort that then it could be all you need to get your last one rock-crunching. Strangely, my friend has four horses and only one was obviously affected though all have the same regime.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

isn't it a damn sight easier and cheaper to put a set of shoes on? one needs to be a brain surgeon and scientist to follow all this!!

 

[cptrayes]

It might be cheaper and easier in some cases Rosie, but those of us who spend the money and time to work it out are trying to do what's best for the overall health of the horse, and increasingly that is looking like keeping them shoeless if possible. In the case of my rehab, for example, a beautiful and talented Iberian ten year old would have been dead four months ago if I was as dismissive of barefoot as you are here and have been when we have chatted on other threads at length.

 

[pastie2]

isn't it a damn sight easier and cheaper to put a set of shoes on? one needs to be a brain surgeon and scientist to follow all this!!

Horses have been wearing shoes for centuries, I simply dont understand all of you. I am baffeled, I dont see how it could work out cheaper to be barefoot, you have to have a university degree in the matter, whichwill take years. After that you need to have a degree in nutrition, a degree in supliments, the list goes on. In the meantime most of us are just riding our horses, shod. We have the time of course because we are not over anallising the subject, and just getting on with it.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

It might be cheaper and easier in some cases Rosie, but those of us who spend the money and time to work it out are trying to do what's best for the overall health of the horse, and increasingly that is looking like keeping them shoeless if possible. In the case of my rehab, for example, a beautiful and talented Iberian ten year old would have been dead four months ago if I was as dismissive of barefoot as you are here and have been when we have chatted on other threads at length.

ok CP, i appreciate the fact that it saved your horses life, but surely it wont work for all horses? i dont wish to appear dismissive of barefoot but are you not blinkered by the fact that it worked so well for you. our horses are just as loved and fit as the next persons, but does everyone honestly have the time to analyse feeds,supplements etc,we certainly dont!!hubby has just the time in winter to feed,groom and exercise nevermind do a degree in whatever you are talking about- i'm lost!

 

[Oberon]

My horses are barefoot. It's not complicated. I actually enjoy researching what I am feeding and ensuring my horses are as healthy inside and out as they can be. I prefer being in control rather than defering soley to farriers and feed companies etc.

 

[mrdarcy]

Horses have been wearing shoes for centuries, I simply dont understand all of you. I am baffeled, I dont see how it could work out cheaper to be barefoot, you have to have a university degree in the matter, whichwill take years. After that you need to have a degree in nutrition, a degree in supliments, the list goes on. In the meantime most of us are just riding our horses, shod. We have the time of course because we are not over anallising the subject, and just getting on with it.

Horses have been unshod for a heck of a lot longer - a few million years longer!

Having a barefoot horse is not complicated for 95% of people - simply feed a healthy diet (low sugar/starch), exercise regularly and bingo. It's a lot less hassle than having them shod - no worries of lost shoes and hoof wall being torn away, no brushing/over reach injuries, significantly less risk of concussion therefore lower risk of injury, better action so lower risk of tendon damage, no slipping on roads, much lower risk of serious kick injuries to other horses and yourself. I used to worry constantly about all those things when my horses were shod - my life is much more relaxed now my horses are barefoot. Oh and I just did a 50 mile endurance ride this weekend with one of them, that's six and a half hours of riding over all sorts of different terrain, grass, stones, hard core, forestry tracks etc - I call that 'just getting on with it'!

Returning to the original question - the horses hoof is designed to weight bear on the hoof wall actively, the frog and sole passively - all structures have a function and will depend on the terrain and the speed of the horse. Here's how a few AANHCP CP's answer the question:

"What parts of the hoof are weight bearing and why? (wall,sole, bars?)


Jaime: "The weight-bearing structures of the naturally shaped hoof are surprisingly different then what we see in deformed, shod, and unnatural trimmed feet. In the natural state of Equus Caballus, the hoof wall (including the bars) endures the primary weight bearing responsibility of supporting the hoof, followed by the sole and frog, respectively. What is strikingly different is that the heel-bulbs, stimulated by behavior driven movement, descend to aid in the weight-bearing mechanism. Among domestic horses, this is closely approximated through NHC trimming and natural boarding."

Luca: "All parts are weight bearing, but with different times and modalities."

Louise: "The wild model shows us that both the hoofwall, the sole and the frog are meant to bear weight. They all take their part in the way the hoofmechanism works. Everything needs to be used and worn, in order to become strong and healthy. If we put on a horseshoe, and lift the sole and frog off the ground, we get a weak hoofwall, thin sensitive soles and often small frogs with thrush."

Sherry: "The entire hoof and all its parts take its turn in weight bearing as the horse moves. The hoof is not a rigid structure, but is alive and flexible, expanding and contracting in turn."

Nick: "All parts are used as and when needed by the hoof mechanism."

Steve: "All parts of the hoof are weight bearing . The wall makes primary contact followed by the bars, frog and then sole. The hoof is designed this way to absorb concussion in flight over uneven terrain."


The full article is here:
http://www.aanhcp.net/index.php?opt...qbeing-barefootq&catid=32:frontpage&Itemid=47

I think this is also interesting for the sceptics - the entire Houston Mounted Police force, 38 horses in total, are all barefoot. The initial reason for trying barefoot was cost - too many horses out for too long with lameness problems. They started with taking the shoes off the lame ones and found it made them sound so now all their horses are barefoot. They work long hours on hard surfaces - if it can work for them it can work for anyone.

 

[lillith]

As far as I can tell so far the basics are good trimming, exerciese and a forage based diet, (which incidentaly also seems to be highy effective at reducing stable vices and gut problems). It is only with an awkward case one would need to get complicated with supplements ect.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

does anyone actually have time to ride and enjoy their horses? i'd be suffering from brain ache!!

 

[stormybracken]

Because I didn't take the time, or to be honest know I needed to, to find out about how a horse's hoof works effectively my horse has been unrideable for several months, and was restricted in his exercise on hindsight for several years before that. If your horse is happy and healthy and clocking up the miles, then that's brilliant, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[mrdarcy]

does anyone actually have time to ride and enjoy their horses? i'd be suffering from brain ache!!

LOL - to quote myself...

Oh and I just did a 50 mile endurance ride this weekend with one of them, that's six and a half hours of riding over all sorts of different terrain, grass, stones, hard core, forestry tracks etc - I call that 'just getting on with it'!

At about mile 40 I'm not sure i was enjoying it much but I certainly was enjoying it after we'd crossed the finish line and watched my barefoot horse trot up sound and happy for the vet.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

good for you!

 

[cptrayes]

does anyone actually have time to ride and enjoy their horses? i'd be suffering from brain ache!!

I hunt one in the winter. I compete the other who is winning points at elementary and working at advanced medium at home. I hack them both through the summer, though the hunter would be dead this week if the dressage horse had had shoes on when he kicked him last Wednesday. He damned near broke his leg as it was, I'm sure he'd have succeeded if there had been iron on the end of his foot. The rehab is exercised daily and doing extremely well.

I have had plenty of others who did it easily Rosie. Don't forget that the only reason that people post on here is because they are having difficulties, so you are only reading about the hard ones. The thousands of happy barefoot horse owners with horses that do it easily (most of them) are too busy out there riding to be bothering to post on here telling you how much fun they are having.

 

[Kayfamily]

Originally Posted by pastie2
Horses have been wearing shoes for centuries, I simply dont understand all of you. I am baffeled, I dont see how it could work out cheaper to be barefoot, you have to have a university degree in the matter, whichwill take years. After that you need to have a degree in nutrition, a degree in supliments, the list goes on. In the meantime most of us are just riding our horses, shod. We have the time of course because we are not over anallising the subject, and just getting on with it.

I've just got a new pony who is barefoot I don't think she has ever worn shoes and she's 11. I've stayed with the same routine she was on before i got her which is grass and hay if she's in.

How can this not work out cheaper and I definately don't have a university degree, i just enjoy riding her.

 

[chessy]

My horse is barefoot and has been so in the years before I bought her, farrier commented on what great shape her hooves are in and said she won't need shoes, just a regular trim. I make sure her diet and exercise is adequate, just as I did with my last horse who was shod. There's no additional hassle for me at all.

Yes I do ride and enjoy her, and no I don't have a university degree. I really don't see what's so baffling about it.

 

[Kelpie]

with respect, Rosiefronfelen, as the original poster to this thread, my question was not about whether barefoot was any good or not, it was about one of the finer details about whether a barefoot horse should peripherally load or not. If you'd like to start up a new thread about the rights and wrongs of barefoot then be my guest but actually for this thread I'd really prefer to stick to my original question, thanks.

Seeing as you've raised it, though, actually as cptrayes and others on here have said, there are many horses working very well and happily barefoot. The problematic ones get brought up on posts because they are problematic - generally the point of posts on here is to try to find answers to problems through advice from helpful folk like cptrayes and mrdarcy and many others on here. Thats why you may hear about problems barefoot, rather than all of the success stories. I'm sure there are also a number of different posts about shoeing, lameness, etc, etc.

I'm actually not anti shoeing, but I can't see the point of doing it if you don't have to, and I think the situations when you have to are actually pretty limited. I do, tho, think it's a shame when so many people ignorantly assume that a horse should automatically be shod when they don't need to be.