Barefoot back to shoes?

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NooNoo59

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Hi, just need to get some feedback on here. Pony has been barefoot for over a year, initially trimmed by the farrier but he was a bit brutal so got an equine podiatrist. Pony has also developed Cushings and is being medicated. He has been sound but for the last few months probably from just before Christmas has not been right, the vet has looked at him and says he is sound but looks footsore. So made the decision to shoe him at least on the fronts and the farrier I consulted is not the one I used to use, but comes highly recommended. He has watch the boy trot up and says he looks sore on all four feet and when he uses the hoof testers on him he is sore on the soles.
Now the problem is he says he has been overtrimmed but the trimmer use to take off dust but did come every five weeks and also use to hoof test him and he was always ok. So who do I trust, the pony is definitely sore and not rideable. Is this just professional politics or is the farrier right, its not like he needs the business as he is fully booked! Thoughts anyone? Also very nervous about shoeing as I think that contributed to his lameness before I took the shoes off.
 
Is the Cushings under control?

Could you make him comfy with pads and boots while his hooves grow and then see if he's happy with a bit more hoof? If he's still sore with longer hooves and altering his medication doesn't help, then shoeing could be the way forwards in this situation.
 
How can the pony be overtrimmed if the trimmer took so little off and he hoof tested fine at that time?

It sounds like the Cushings is not under control. It can be very difficult to manage Cushings horses barefoot, do not feel bad if you decide to shoe.
 
He is to be blood tested again in two weeks to see if we have the meds at the right level. CPTrayes - I know that's why I wonder if its a why use a trimmer when you can use a farrier with years of experience sought of statement, I think shoes are the way forward as also the white line has never completely closed and has soft crevices where small gritty stones get stuck. I have as you know done all the supplement thing and everything else recommended on here, the horse next door to mine had his shoes off six months ago and is being worked six days a week on all surfaces with no problems, and he gets nothing extra, she just watches his weight and feeds his a bit of chaff, which is why I think that mine is not going to keep sound without shoes I feel it will be an up and down thing, sometimes good sometimes not, but I am worried about not noticing the subtle differences that you see when there are no shoes on to cover up problems. I am always advising people to go with there gut feeling but my guts are on the fence on this one!!
 
Cushings horses produce excess corticosteroid hormone which may be compromising laminar attachment.

The weight of hoof testers will tilt the capsule against the pedal bone and may be highlighting an attachment problem rather than a fault with the sole. Hoof testers will locate a lesion in a small area of the sole, an abscess perhaps, but the sole would have to be very thin to create a response from the sole corium over the whole sole area.
 
Thanks Ronalda. Will the right level of meds correct this excess production? He has xrays done recently to check that the pedal bone etc is all good and vet says all is fine. Is that what you mean by an attachment problem
 
Could he have laminitis? At this time of year my cushings mare is really difficult to manage as she gets low grade laminitis flare ups if I'm not really strict with her grazing. Is your boy turned out a lot at the moment/ what is the grass like?
 
He is still on his winter grazing. In at night with a soaked haynet and hi fibre cubes and allen and page 'l' mix small scoop of each. He will be moved to his summer paddock but he is going on one that has already been grazed all through the winter so the grass is not lush much to his disgust! He will then be out at night and in during the day, supplementing with hay if need be. His weight is good at the moment despite not being worked. He has a bit of a pot belly but I can feel his ribs. His feet are not warm at all and he is fine walking on grass but as soon as he steps on to a hard surface he is not hopping lame but cautious. I suppose I could ride him just on the grass, but if his feet are sore is this going to do more harm than good?
 
Ronalda said:
Cushings horses produce excess corticosteroid hormone which may be compromising laminar attachment.

The weight of hoof testers will tilt the capsule against the pedal bone and may be highlighting an attachment problem rather than a fault with the sole. Hoof testers will locate a lesion in a small area of the sole, an abscess perhaps, but the sole would have to be very thin to create a response from the sole corium over the whole sole area.
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Is it not possible that the solar corium is inflamed, which is why the horse is reacting to some pressure?

It's common in barefoot horses for sole sensitivity to be the first sign of laminitis, and I have personally had a barefoot horse with very thick soles go footie on stones with too much grass.
 
I would be suspecting and treating as if he had laminitis but I'd also get the vet to take blood to check to see if the Cushings is properly under control.
 
The bloods are due to be checked next week. Surely if he was laminitic his feet would be warm? Also he certainly doesn't look laminitic when he is charging and bucking round the field! He is only sore/cautious on hard surfaces. I don't think he is laminitic just sore. And sorry to be thick where is the solar corium?
 
NooNoo59 said:
The bloods are due to be checked next week. Surely if he was laminitic his feet would be warm? Also he certainly doesn't look laminitic when he is charging and bucking round the field! He is only sore/cautious on hard surfaces. I don't think he is laminitic just sore. And sorry to be thick where is the solar corium?
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I don't know if you know this, so sorry if I am teaching you to suck eggs, but laminitis is not a disease of the feet, it's usually a disease of the gut, allowing toxins to reach the feet. It's a disorder that starts from very mild and goes to a death sentence if not caught. Many barefooters know that the very first sign of laminitis that they will get is for their horse to feel stones they were happy on a week before. That's their sign to reduce their horse's grass intake.

The feet won't necessarily be warm. Particularly if the only bit feeling it is the solar corium, which is the live bit of the foot under the sole itself, to which the dead sole is attached.
 
cptrayes said:
Is it not possible that the solar corium is inflamed, which is why the horse is reacting to some pressure?

It's common in barefoot horses for sole sensitivity to be the first sign of laminitis, and I have personally had a barefoot horse with very thick soles go footie on stones with too much grass.
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Interesting point; will subclinical/low grade laminitis in itself cause sensitivity within the sole?

Will a surplus of digestive toxin even when compounded by excess corticosteroid inflame the sole corium concurrent with the laminae? The laminae become inflamed only after the enzymatic regulation of the tissue remodelling malfunctions. It is the subsequent pulling apart that leads to inflamation.

Obviously an abscess could inflame the sole corium, Pedal Osteitis if septic too, but other than that surely only deflection due to a very thin sole could allow the corium to be overly compressed between the pedal bone.

Is classic footieness a result of torquing and tilting the pedal bone within the capsule rather than a response to even pressure on the sole?
 
NooNoo59 said:
Thanks Ronalda. Will the right level of meds correct this excess production? He has xrays done recently to check that the pedal bone etc is all good and vet says all is fine. Is that what you mean by an attachment problem
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NooNoo, have no direct experience of Cushings.

Traditional medication is a weekly Prascend pill combined with an annual test to check that the Pituitary Gland is not secreting excess ACT hormone (which leads down the HPA pathway to over production of corticosteroid).

We have one vet on our yard who is prepared to talk (to plebs) on all manor of subjects. She is a real gem, and has told me that is not unknown for Cushings to be cured or at least put on hold. She showed me the latest test result sheet from a Cob that had established Cushings over a number of years, it read "Normal ACTH concentration, no evidence of PPID" (Cushings)!
 
Surely if he had any sort of inflammation within the hoof structure he would be not charge round the field which is rutty from the winter and be sound? Also the vet looked at him and we turned him on a ten metre circle on concrete and the feels the only evidence of lameness is soreness which in his opinion is because he is not coping with out shoes as not all horses do. He was coping on surfaces, the problem where he is is that you go from lovely old pasture to harrowed field to gritty track to boggy woods, therefore the feet need to rock crunching and his are not even though I have done all I can to make them so, in fact now they are breaking in places, this contrasts greatly with other horses on the yard that are barefoot which leads me to the conclusion that he needs shoes on at the moment. I will monitor this closely and if he does not then stay sound we will need to think again.
 
Having had barefoot horses for 8 years, both with and without cushings, it sounds to me as though, like me, despite all your good intentions, diet and exercise control etc, your horses feet are not growing at the same rate as they are wearing/being trimmed, and this wear/trimming is causing footsoreness. You have two alternatives- boot for all ridden work and even turnout if on a hard wearing (eg concrete/stone) surface, or shoe. I shod mine. Cushings does not help with hoof comfort and my single biggest regret is not shoeing our mare with cushings, as she would have been so much more comfortable in her latter years- she too would charge around the field, but on tarmac or stone it would be a totally different story- and no she did not have dietary laminitis, was fed all the correct minerals and stuff and was not overweight- the laminitis was caused by 1. The cushings and 2. concussion and excessive wear. Prascend will control the cushings, shoes (or even boots- but in my opinion boots are only a temporary and surface dependant solution) will make your horse more comfortable.
 
NooNoo59 said:
Hi, just need to get some feedback on here. Pony has been barefoot for over a year, initially trimmed by the farrier but he was a bit brutal so got an equine podiatrist. Pony has also developed Cushings and is being medicated. He has been sound but for the last few months probably from just before Christmas has not been right, the vet has looked at him and says he is sound but looks footsore.
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I can't get my head round how he can be sound but also footsore?
Did anything at all change at Christmas?

Nothing to add really.
 
Ronalda said:
Interesting point; will subclinical/low grade laminitis in itself cause sensitivity within the sole?

Will a surplus of digestive toxin even when compounded by excess corticosteroid inflame the sole corium concurrent with the laminae? The laminae become inflamed only after the enzymatic regulation of the tissue remodelling malfunctions. It is the subsequent pulling apart that leads to inflamation.

Obviously an abscess could inflame the sole corium, Pedal Osteitis if septic too, but other than that surely only deflection due to a very thin sole could allow the corium to be overly compressed between the pedal bone.

Is classic footieness a result of torquing and tilting the pedal bone within the capsule rather than a response to even pressure on the sole?
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The cause comes before the inflammation and all the coria (tissue producing and nutrient supplying tissues, a bit like a glove over P3 and all structures in the hoof) and lamina are affected. I believe the torque you describe is only an issue if there is inflammation present. It is inflammation (or dietary imbalances) that causes weakness in the lamina and eventually stretch. Laminitis is a systemic condition.
Hoof tester reaction also depends on how thin the sole is and how hard you close them. Too hard can cause bruising (and subsequet abscess) especially if the sole is thin.

My laminitic pony is quite capable of charging around in a field if she got the chance! I have seen her gallop, buck and leap when footy when she escaped into the garden! Excitement can over ride footyness plus fields are usually soft.

Obviously you have to do what you feel is best op.
 
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cptrayes said:
I don't know if you know this, so sorry if I am teaching you to suck eggs, but laminitis is not a disease of the feet, it's usually a disease of the gut, allowing toxins to reach the feet..
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Toxicity can be a cause of laminitis but it's certainly NOT the main cause!

Obesity leading to Metabolic disorders such as Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS) is by far the most common cause of laminitis.
Other causes include Pituitary Pars Intermedia Dysfunction (PPID) otherwise known as Cushings Disease, Trauma such as fast work on hard ground, Medications such as steroids, Poor trimming and shoeing can also be a factor as can stress.

In this pony's case it seems that PPID is the culprit.
Hoof warmth is not always a symptom of laminitis, in fact some may have feet that are cold touch due to compromised blood flow to the foot. Thats why GTN cream is sometimes prescribed to dilate the blood vessels and improve blood supply.

If this was my pony i'd treat as if it was laminitis until a vet confirms otherwise.
No matter what some might claim, barefoot is not for everyone, I've got one barefoot (He has Cushings but is barefoot due to arthritis making it uncomfortable for him to be shod) and another shod. I've also had competition ponies that have never been shod, it'sa ll down to the individual animal.
 
flojo said:
Toxicity can be a cause of laminitis but it's certainly NOT the main cause!

Obesity leading to Metabolic disorders such as Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS) is by far the most common cause of laminitis.
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It's not that simple though is it? What causes obesity? What causes the lamina inflammation?

ps. A shod horse (or any horse) can trudle along with warning symptoms long before it is obese and crashes with overt signs of laminitis.
 
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Flojo it is my understanding that many of the conditions you describe as the cause of laminitis result in toxin leakage from the gut. Which is why you can have a stick thin insulin resistant horse who is STILL laminitic unless you severely restrict the carbohydrates which it cannot digest properly, and which then allow the multiplication of bugs in the gut which leak toxins into the bloodstream which attack the solar corium and the laminae.

It is equally possible to have a very fat horse which is not laminitic, because it does not get the gut changes that the laminitic ones do.

No-one, especially not me, said gut toxins were the only cause of laminitis, but it is my belief that they are the number one cause.
 
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cptrayes said:
1. ... which leak toxins into the bloodstream which attack the solar corium and the laminae.

2. No-one, especially not me, said gut toxins were the only cause of laminitis, but it is my belief that they are the number one cause.
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1. Is this always so?

Is the laminar bonding principle unique to the wall only?

Surely the sole corium is a growth corium and does not feature that primary and secondary interlocking mechanism that can subsequently break down.

2. My user friendly vet confirms (in her opinion) that a surplus of gut toxicity is the trigger for "almost all" episodes of laminar attachment problems leading to enzymatic regulation dysfunction and AV shunting.

In addition, a predisposition to laminitis applies to horses already suffering from:

Insulin Resistance via glucose deprivation and/or Hyperinsulineamia. (IR is a major component of EMS).
Excess corticosteroid production due to Cushings
Compounded by a long flared toe and underrun heel.
 
NooNoo59 said:
He is still on his winter grazing. In at night with a soaked haynet and hi fibre cubes and allen and page 'l' mix small scoop of each. He will be moved to his summer paddock but he is going on one that has already been grazed all through the winter so the grass is not lush much to his disgust! He will then be out at night and in during the day, supplementing with hay if need be. His weight is good at the moment despite not being worked. He has a bit of a pot belly but I can feel his ribs. His feet are not warm at all and he is fine walking on grass but as soon as he steps on to a hard surface he is not hopping lame but cautious. I suppose I could ride him just on the grass, but if his feet are sore is this going to do more harm than good?
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The ribby and pot belly and the footiness are signs that the PPID is not under control. I would either speak to your Vet about further testing or upping the dose of Prascend. Would also be restricting the grass in the meantime.

In my experience horses / ponies can seem perfectly OK charging round the field but still have low grade lami. One of the tests for lami is to take them onto a hard surface, turn them etc. My own lami pony charges round the field at high speed but take her onto the hard stoney ground and she is footsore. She currently has low grade lami (diagnosed by Vet!) in her case it is uncontrolled PPID we are trying to get the Prascend dose right for her. When her levels are under control she stomps over rough hard ground. Having two with laminitis I ALWAYS treat footiness as lami, so much better to be safe than sorry. My PPID horse needs shoes at certain times of the year. She is currently unshod as she was too sore to reshoe last time. She has boots and pads on and having been off the grass for a few days is improving quickly.
 
Even if a horse is in a "winter paddock", doesn't mean it's still winter in there... spring affects all grass whether its a winter paddock or a summer paddock. Even on overgrazed grass, the sugar levels will have risen with the mild weather. You can't stop it by fencing off an area and labelling it "winter".

Get the pony off the grass.

Then, do what you have to do.
 
So no grass at all or restricted to half a day? He is not good being in all the time gets very stressed. Could have a bare patch but it will still have some grass and he will be on his own which he is not good at either. Why is it that some of the horses at the yard are out on lush thick grass and are fine? He is always being restricted etc and he is still not fine, its not really very fair!! Some of the horses on the yard are as fat as butter and still dont get any lami signs, its annoying!
 
From what you've written I'd be getting the vet to take blood to evaluate how the Cushing's medication is doing asap. When was he last tested? How much Prascend is he on?
 
NooNoo, some horses are find as they don't have underlying problems, sods law i believe.
And some mine included are a management nightmare - it really pees me off too.
 
He is due to be tested next week he is on 2mg per day, his levels 12 weeks ago were 69 we gave one mg per day and his levels went up to 78! I am going to shoe at the moment he is not coping without and there is another horse on the yard with cushings and she has had to keep shoes on her as she does not cope without. Also can anyone confirm if the Prascend has a negative effect on the hoof quality?
 
Before you start to believe your internet diagnosis of laminitis................................
Often the 'barefoot' way is to limit grazing if the horse demonstrates footiness........which is fine if laminitis has been diagnosed (by a vet), but if, as you say your cushings horse is footy on hard ground personally I would certainly get the blood tested as it may be that the prascend dose is now not enough to control the cushings, you could also ask the vet to check for laminitis (but bear in mind that as discussed most cushings horses demonstrate footiness). My barefoot cushings mare was much happier out and moving than in, and if your horse is in an established herd they will keep him moving around. Grass is not poison for any horse, barefoot or shod, lush grass has it's dangers obviously (especially to the obese, underexercised horse that is also fed half the feed room three times a day, oh and a bit of hay in the field just in case!) But on average to poor quality horse grazing the benefits of moving around with other horses far outweigh those of being kept in. Could he go out on poorer grazing with a fatty or two?
 
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