Barefoot but very flat footed...should i re-shod?

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My horse is 13year, Clydesdale X who had a tendon issues over 8 years ago and was diagnosed with arthritis over year a go. His shoes were removed after finding out about his arthritis and after several long months of care and hard work he became sound; much to the surprise of everyone who said that he would never be ridden/driven again.

However recently after moving to a new yard, new farrier and a slight increase of road work he became lame on his front. The vet has checked and his joints and arthritis and says he is fine, the farrier has looked for an abscess which no joy, but he is still lame. Everyone is telling be to but shoes back on him, but I have seen such an improvement of him being barefoot with his arthritis that I would like to keep him this way. However he is very flat footed at the front, and is weight bearing purely on the sole and frog, which is causing bruising on stones (which he has to walk on to be turned out/brought in) and which cannot be good for his joints. I have got him some size 8 boa boots (the only boots that i could get to fit his dinner plate size feet, which he wears when exercising (currently only in hand due to being foot sore). I am really torn in what to do, I know that shoes will be a short term fix, by raising his frog and sole off the ground, however I would prefer to keep him barefoot. I so wish I just ask him (the horse) what I should and what he wants.

In case it helps is feed formula for feet with dengie good dooer chaff with supplements for his joints and stuff like garlic in the summer...

Please can you offer any advice on what I should do? Is there any hope of such a large, flat footed, horse remaining barefoot or should I just admit defeat and have him shod again?

Sorry for the long winded babble

Thanks X
 
hi, I have a 16.3 warmblood x who too went barefoot to help his artritus, that was 3 years ago now and he's 19 now, he's worn shoes since he was 4, he was 'sore/footy' on and off for approx 6-12 months, he's was also fairly flat footed and also 'felt' every stone on his way to the field, I persevered, wore boots when needed and kept at it, he eventually grew 'calluses (not sure on spelling! ) he also raised his own sole off the ground and now has a massive frog, so he walks on the walls and frog as he should do.
I now have a happier horse in general, ok, he still does tread on the odd large stone and is possibly sore for 2-3 minutes and very rarely bruises his foot, but no more than he did with shoes. He seems to have settled finally, he's much better on his knees, and positively floats across the ground again, so it was worth it.
Is you farrier 'switched on' to barefooot or is he against, my old one was against, new one is neither for or against but really works with me/horse to help, he has commented on how good his feet are now, he contstantly also tended to overreach and remove shoes so his feet looked full of holes so there are additional benefits. You're feeding a good hoof suplement so cant do more there, try using the boots to and from the field, and if its wet allow his feet to dry out from time to time, this helps, it allows them to harded off again,

best of luck, but dont let him suffer, have you tried other types of shoes other than metal ones ? Imprint shoes are not so bad for concussion, it might be worth speaking to other vets/farriers ?
 
Um I hate to say it but if it's not arthritis related and he was coping before it's either the change in environment or your farrier is not trimming him right.

If the increase in road work has been steady he should have taken it in his stride if he was already conditioned to it.

If going barefoot had made my horse sound against the odds there isn't a cat's chance in hell I'd put metal shoes on again. Boots and pads are a great solution and maybe speak to your farrier, a more pro-barefoot farrier who is used to keeping unshod horses in work rather than overtrimming for a pasture trim or a shoe prep trim...or if finances allow (cheaper than going back to being shod) get a properly qualified barefoot trimmer to take him on. There are some very very good ones and some rubbish ones, same as with all walks of equestrian professional so do your homework and get opinions.

I've had barefoot working horses for 10 years, in that time and with four horses only two farriers could keep them barefoot and road sound, the others made them sore. Have since moved to barefoot trimmers, one great EP one EP who helped permanently lame one of my horses and one UKNHCP who is doing a brilliant job with my youngsters

Good luck
 
I agree with the other posters - barefoot has clearly worked well for him so far. Flat soles are nothing to do with breed, type or size of horse and it's incorrect to say that if a horse has flat soles he will always have flat soles. The concavity of sole is not a static thing and concavity will develop over time with the right diet and correct environment. Even the flatest footed horses will develop great concavity given a chance - people find this hard to believe but it's seen over and over again. There are some working Percherons in the US trimmed by Peter Ramey who all have fab feet, with lots of concavity who work on hard surfaces and work many miles every day.

You say his footiness only started when you moved to a new yard - so something in this move has caused the footiness. Either he has access to more or richer grass (plus the spring grass is coming through with will flatten soles and make previously sound horses footy) and/or the new farrier is taking too much off when he trims. As has already been asked is this new farrier knowledgeable about barefoot trimming? Is he leaving the sole callous or removing it (very common)? Talk to your farrier and try and get an idea of how many performance barefoot horses he trims regularly. If you want a second opinion get either a barefoot trimmer who knows what they're doing or a barefoot pro-farrier to have a look. Depending on what the grass is like at the new yard you could try restricting his grazing - either out at night and in during the day or into a starvation paddock. I would also relook at his diet - Dengie Good Doer does contain molasses which we advise to avoid. Unfortunately Dengie don't publish the sugar or starch %'s in Good Doer - you could try ringing and asking them but basically you want the combined percentage to be 10% or less. There are non-molassed chaffs around that you could switch him onto.

I'd also be tempted to remove the garlic. There is some discussion whether garlic can affect the ability to break down sugars - the last thing you need in a barefoot horse. Glucosomine is conta-indicated for insulin resistant horses - not saying he is IR but glucosomine is something I stopped giving my barefoot horses - instead I use rosehips.

In the meantime now he has boots keep working him in those. You can get pads for the inside of the boots if he is still a little uncomfortable. But do try to switch between working him in boots and bare - as if you always work in boots the sole callous will never build up.
 
I suspect the clue is in the increase in roadwork........... put shoes back on him. Lots of horses cope shoeless without much work, but an increase of wear on the feet will hurt them.
 
Lots of barefoot horses become a little sore when the weather suddenly changes and the ground goes from muddy/wet/soft to dry/stony quite quickly. Their hooves can take a little while to adjust. Shoes are always an option, but rest, reducing roadwork for a short period of time and boots can all help. Don't do anything rash yet - if you put shoes back on then any change in his foot shape will be negated when the farrier prepares the foot for shoeing. Perhaps have a think about getting him checked by an equine podiatrist or barefoot specialist trimmer to get another opinion before you make a decision.
Good luck.
 
Sorry, but if your horse is sore, then the most important step is to stop the pain. This horse is a Clydesdale cross, and his breeding indicates he will be predisposed to flat feet. It's utter nonsense that the domesticated horses will all cope with a workload without shoes.
Leaving a horse sore to indulge a school of thought is nothing short of barbaric.
 
I've just been reading a lot of Pete Ramey and Jaime Jackson's stuff about barefoot and it's fascinating. If you google Pete Ramey you can get many of his articles on line, and they both have books out.
My mare recently had shoes on for a while after an operation. She had been barefoot for 8 years before the op (the two things aren't connected!) and so I've got very used to seeing bare feet. I was shocked at the difference between the way her feet normally are with me and a barefoot trimmer looking after them - the shape was very different and I think it will take her a while to regain her full barefoot strength. If you can find a good barefoot trimmer I would highly recommend that route - unless your farrier is open to the whole barefoot thing, he will trim the foot the same way as he would before applying a shoe and that really isn't what you need.
 
Caledonia said:
I suspect the clue is in the increase in roadwork........... put shoes back on him. Lots of horses cope shoeless without much work, but an increase of wear on the feet will hurt them.
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I better tell my barefoot endurance horses that all the training and competitions they do are just figments of their imagination...

But I'd better stop now... don't feed the trolls!!!!!!!!

Can't resist posting this though...

http://www.hoofrehab.com/draft.htm
 
Caledonia said:
Sorry, but if your horse is sore, then the most important step is to stop the pain. This horse is a Clydesdale cross, and his breeding indicates he will be predisposed to flat feet. It's utter nonsense that the domesticated horses will all cope with a workload without shoes.
Leaving a horse sore to indulge a school of thought is nothing short of barbaric.
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No one is talking about leaving a horse sore to indulge a school of thought. This owner has the horse barefoot to prevent pain it previously suffered from arthritis when shod. Many arthritic horses are a lot happier allowed to grow feet to suit their condition and not be dictated to by what a farrier decides is the right balance for them.

My own feeling is that it is nothing short of barbaric to take a horse who is temporarily footie without shoes and shoe it in spite of the fact that you know that it will cause that horse long term pain from arthritis.

Especially if you have not first resolved any dietary issue that it may have. Many, many barefoot horses will be footie at this time of the year if their grass intake is not restricted. Most very big footed horses will lack concavity. Flat feet does not mean it need be sore on stones if the soles are good and thick like they should be. Bearing weight only on the heel frog and sole is CORRECT and is not why this horse is feeling stones. Barefoot performance horses do not walk on their outer hoof wall.
 
Thank you for all of your replies! :D I think I am going to try and get a barefoot farrier to come out. Can any please recommend a barefoot farrier in Reading/Newbury, Berkshire area, ?

mrdarcy said:
Depending on what the grass is like at the new yard you could try restricting his grazing - either out at night and in during the day or into a starvation paddock. I would also relook at his diet - Dengie Good Doer does contain molasses which we advise to avoid. Unfortunately Dengie don't publish the sugar or starch %'s in Good Doer - you could try ringing and asking them but basically you want the combined percentage to be 10% or less. There are non-molassed chaffs around that you could switch him onto.

I'd also be tempted to remove the garlic. There is some discussion whether garlic can affect the ability to break down sugars - the last thing you need in a barefoot horse. Glucosomine is conta-indicated for insulin resistant horses - not saying he is IR but glucosomine is something I stopped giving my barefoot horses - instead I use rosehips.
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mrdarcy I am really interested in your post, in the summer I use a green guard muzzle during the day, an then off a night, he has never had lami but it is always a concern and I like to keep his weight down (vet is happy with his current weight) and I find a muzzle helps in the summer. He is not wearing his muzzle yet as he is still in his winter paddock.

I have been thinking of changing his chaff to Honey Chop Chopped Oat Straw however I have been able to find anyone who sells it. This is also true for the rosehips. Can any one recommend where i can get it, in Berkshire area or maybe online...

Also an interesting thought about the garlic...

Thank you!!! :):)
 
No worries - hope I can help a little bit. There is a great trimmer who covers your area... this is her website http://www.ukhooftrimmers.co.uk/ I highly recommend her.

Re using the muzzle - they are essential for some horses. Even though he's still in his winter paddock the grass is shooting through now. It might not look like there's any growth but that's because he's eating it all - I only have to look in my back garden to see how fast the grass is growing now.

A good non-molassessed chop is Top Spec Top Chop Lite. Badminton Horse feeds also do an excellent range of non-molassed chops that I really like, though they don't have that many stockists - you might find one in your area though. Simple Systems also do unmolassed chop - I really like their Ruff Stuff chop. Again not always the easiest to get hold of but check their website for who supplies in your area.

You could cut out the chop altogether and try him on Fast Fibre - low in sugar and starch... however some horses love it and some turn their noses up. Rosehips are widely available online eg via ebay... just search for rosehips in the equestrian section and there are a few different suppliers. We also recommend feeding a magnesium supplement as this helps the system break down sugar - again look on ebay for magnesium oxide. I personally use Mag-restor which is pure chelated magnesium but either will do fine. It can also be a good idea to make sure his gut/digestive system is as healthy as possible but giving him brewers yeast or other prebiotic (Protexin for example).

Other things that can cause footiness are chemical wormers and other drugs (including vaccinations) - these are usually very temporary until the toxins are flushed from the system.

There is always a good and solvable reason why a previously sound barefoot horse goes footy. Mine do many miles of roadwork without a problem unless there is a cock up in the diet or I have to worm them. And if you always have a set of boots handy your horse never has to be uncomfortable - the single most important philosophy in barefoot riding is to do no harm and we would never advocate working a horse that was uncomfortable. Boot him up, with pads inside if necessary, have at a look at the trim, his diet and you'll have your sound horse back without having to slap shoes back on, which you know is only a short term sticking plaster. Definitely give Caroline a ring - she knows her stuff.
 
So much common sense being voiced on here. You know from your own experience the benefits of barefoot, so look for the dietary and trimming reasons why your horse is now not so comfortable, if you put shoes on those problems will still be untreated. And another thumbs up for Caroline, she's been a great support to me with my two barefoot horses.
Good luck!
 
I better tell my barefoot endurance horses that all the training and competitions they do are just figments of their imagination...
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Mr Darcy, I suspect your endurance horse's feet are a very different shape and construction to the OP's.


So, OP - yep, shoes back on.
 
It is unacceptable to leave a horse in pain to go barefoot.
My unshod unworked horses have never gone lame at this time of year, my shod unworked horses have never gone lame at this time of year, my shod worked horses have never gone lame at this time of year. but if an unshod 'working' horse goes footy after an increase in work, as happens with breakers doing roadwork etc it's not rocket science to figure the cause.........
A Clydesdale is about as far removed as you can get from the wild horses that these barefoot practitioners base their philosophies on.
 
Do what ever is going to be more confortable for YOUR horse, there all different, just because some horses are better barefoot which is great but obviously your's is now having to hobble over un even ground.
Going barefoot may of helped initially but is there not other reason that your horse is coping better with his arthritis other than going barefoot, for example supplementing the diet/type of work/medication etc? if these have changed (increased work load) then obviously its effecting his feet, I'd have him shod or like you say use some boots all the time.
 
amymay said:
Mr Darcy, I suspect your endurance horse's feet are a very different shape and construction to the OP's.


So, OP - yep, shoes back on.
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Did you read the article I posted a link to? The one about hard working barefoot draft horses and how they can actually find going barefoot easier than lighter breeds of horses? Give it a read - it might give you food for thought.
 
Caledonia said:
but if an unshod 'working' horse goes footy after an increase in work, as happens with breakers doing roadwork etc it's not rocket science to figure the cause.........
.
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I agree not rocket science - it is either diet related or environment/conditioning related. Get the diet and the conditioning right and you'll have a sound barefoot horse with fabulous feet.

I'd be interested in hearing your response to the article I posted the link to.
 
mrdarcy said:
Did you read the article I posted a link to? The one about hard working barefoot draft horses and how they can actually find going barefoot easier than lighter breeds of horses? Give it a read - it might give you food for thought.
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No I didn't - but will try too a little later.

I have to be honest, I can't imagine that any flat footed horse will find working barefoot easy - and wouldn't hesitate to pop some shoes on it.

Sorry.
 
amymay said:
That's a really sweeping statement, and simply can't be applied to all horses.
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Honestly it can - the evidence is out there, please do read that article and the others on Pete Ramey's site, there's so many examples of all shapes and sizes of horses doing all different sorts of work. The only horses that really struggle are the Insulin Resistent ones but even them, with ultra careful management, can have great barefeet.

I used to be very sceptical too but I watched lots of barefoot horses competing and eventually decided to give it a go myself, very prepared to put the shoes back on if it didn't work. But the changes in all my horses' feet were incredible (all starting from very different points and very different shapes and quality of feet) and the freedom you feel when you're no longer hampered by shoes is amazing. I now look at shod feet and see all the myriad of problems that I never noticed before and hear all the tales of lameness and injuries and vets writing off horses with 'navicular' and feel grateful that my barefoot friends persuaded me to take the leap of faith.
 
mrdarcy said:
I agree not rocket science - it is either diet related or environment/conditioning related. Get the diet and the conditioning right and you'll have a sound barefoot horse with fabulous feet.

I'd be interested in hearing your response to the article I posted the link to.
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My response? It's a load of codswallop. I read up about all this when it was first put out there...... he talks the talk, I'll admit that, but he only has ONE example out of thousands of heavy horses.
I have seen the horrendous effects of barefoot butchery, including horses PTS because of the determination to change the shape of horses' feet to conform to the 'barefoot' ideal.
You need to look harder at what is being taught, and the link to how much money these guys charge to even read their articles.
Barring a bout of laminitis, a mild change of diet should NOT make your horse lame.
Reread the initial post by the OP. The clue to his lameness is in the increased roadwork.

There are hardly any comp riders that go barefoot, and there's a reason for that....... the horse needs shoes to do a load of work, and jumping horses need studs.

One of the cruellest notions I've ever heard is the acceptance of a 'transition period' of lameness (which is in essence what you are saying here). Just stop and think what that really means to the horse.
It's him that is in continual pain, not you. It's his feet that HURT. Yet you happily dish out advice to complete strangers that they should continue to keep their horse in pain.

Get off your blinkered soapbox and think about the poor bloody animals suffering because you're seduced by the church of barefoot..........
 
Caledonia said:
I suspect the clue is in the increase in roadwork........... put shoes back on him. Lots of horses cope shoeless without much work, but an increase of wear on the feet will hurt them.
Click to expand...

Quite how shoes can benefit a flat footed horse I don't know - so I would like someone to explain to me how loading a flat hoof peripherally is going to do anything other than damage a sole that is forced into a bridging rather than s supporting role??????

Boots and pads are the way forward to keep him working - and then look at diet. Get any molasses etc out of the diet. Some horses don;t do wel on Alfalfa, remove the garlic and glucosamine, think about ading in seaweed, brewer's yeast, Linseed, Magnesium Oxide.

If he is on grass - this will probably be the cause - often happens in the springtime.

The ONLY way to deal with flat feet is to allow the horse to remodel his hoof capsule with a higher P3 position - using the frog and all round support to encourage that to happen - shoes won't help. Any farrier can tell you this.
 
Caledonia said:
My response? It's a load of codswallop. I read up about all this when it was first put out there...... he talks the talk, I'll admit that, but he only has ONE example out of thousands of heavy horses.
I have seen the horrendous effects of barefoot butchery, including horses PTS because of the determination to change the shape of horses' feet to conform to the 'barefoot' ideal.
You need to look harder at what is being taught, and the link to how much money these guys charge to even read their articles.
Barring a bout of laminitis, a mild change of diet should NOT make your horse lame.
Reread the initial post by the OP. The clue to his lameness is in the increased roadwork.

There are hardly any comp riders that go barefoot, and there's a reason for that....... the horse needs shoes to do a load of work, and jumping horses need studs.

One of the cruellest notions I've ever heard is the acceptance of a 'transition period' of lameness (which is in essence what you are saying here). Just stop and think what that really means to the horse.
It's him that is in continual pain, not you. It's his feet that HURT. Yet you happily dish out advice to complete strangers that they should continue to keep their horse in pain.

Get off your blinkered soapbox and think about the poor bloody animals suffering because you're seduced by the church of barefoot..........
Click to expand...


Caledonia - I don't like the unreasonable tone of your response, and I think you come across as very polarised, and that is disappointing

Barefoot is not a "church" - horses were not born with shoes - we did that. Maybe "shoeing" is the church?

A transition period with new barefoot horses is reasonable - prolonged shoeing causes damage to the hoof, contraction and damage at the cellular level. The horse has to have the opportunity to put it right as the new hoof grows down.

I'll ask you a question - why do you think horses that go barefoot grow a completely different hoof shape than they did when they were shod? What happens on the outside of the hoof is a reflection of what is happening on the inside, and that does cause discomfort for a while.

Yes if you look at this "on one day" I am inclined to agree with you that it is unreasonable to keep a horse in discomfort. If you look at it across the year or two - the benefits of losing the shoes heavily outweigh the downside of the period of discomfort (remember they are almost NEVER uncomfortable in the field - only on rough surfaces in transition)

One of mine had a difficut first 4 months, but is now doing brilliantly, wiht massive decontraction and huge improvement in his arthritis. The other two just didn't notice their shoes had come off.
 
Becuase horses being ridden over huge distabces >50 miles needed hoof protection - and they couldn't log into saddleryshoponline.com and buy Easy boots!

Also popularised in medieval times - horses kept in cities, in forts, in stables where the hooves were gettting broken down by urine and manure.

It was always a wealthy thing to shoe horses - poor people couldn't afford it - steel was a luxury. As we got more wealthy it becme established practice.

Personally I think in 20 yeaars the number of bare horses will havilly outweigh those shod, and shoeing may well go the way of tail docking.
 
Becuase horses being ridden over huge distabces >50 miles needed hoof protection - and they couldn't log into saddleryshoponline.com and buy Easy boots!
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Ah, so barefoot horses do need protection then?

Incidently, the first horses to have any sort of protection put on their feet were.........


....... draft horses - because of the foot conformation and their inability to cope with working barefoot. Just like the OP's horse ;)
 
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