Barefoot but very flat footed...should i re-shod?

Caledonia said:
My response? It's a load of codswallop. I read up about all this when it was first put out there...... he talks the talk, I'll admit that, but he only has ONE example out of thousands of heavy horses.
I have seen the horrendous effects of barefoot butchery, including horses PTS because of the determination to change the shape of horses' feet to conform to the 'barefoot' ideal.
You need to look harder at what is being taught, and the link to how much money these guys charge to even read their articles.
Barring a bout of laminitis, a mild change of diet should NOT make your horse lame.
Reread the initial post by the OP. The clue to his lameness is in the increased roadwork.

There are hardly any comp riders that go barefoot, and there's a reason for that....... the horse needs shoes to do a load of work, and jumping horses need studs.

One of the cruellest notions I've ever heard is the acceptance of a 'transition period' of lameness (which is in essence what you are saying here). Just stop and think what that really means to the horse.
It's him that is in continual pain, not you. It's his feet that HURT. Yet you happily dish out advice to complete strangers that they should continue to keep their horse in pain.

Get off your blinkered soapbox and think about the poor bloody animals suffering because you're seduced by the church of barefoot..........
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He has more than one example and he is just one trimmer - there are many many draft horses out there working hard without shoes.

I see you drag out the Strasser example - that's getting such a tired arguement. The Strasser trim is nothing like the trim done by AANHCP and other trimmers. In fact Jaime Jackson the founder of the AANHCP was one of the people the RSPCA used to testify against Dr Strasser's student in the UK to gain the prosecution. So please do your research properly. The AANHCP trim is never ever invasive - unlike farriers who will still dig deep holes for abcesses into live tissue and ressect hoof walls exposing live tissue. Our guiding principle is to do no harm. We do not force a foot into any shape or ideal. We allow nature to do it's thing - the wild horse hoof is the hoof the horse has evolved over millions of years. No domestic horse will ever have a hoof that looks exactly like a wild horse hoof but given the right diet and environment a domestic horse will grow a hoof that is pointing in that direction. We let the individual horse grow the feet he needs dependent on his own conformation - nothing is forced into a text book shape. We don't add wedges to try and force heels up, or heart bar shoes to try and add support, or any other types of rememdial shoeing that is forcing the foot into what human's have decided is the ideal hoof shape.

There are lots of barefoot competition horses - I know plenty and there are many many more in the USA. In fact the current American National Endurance Champion is barefoot - that's a race ride covering 100 miles in a day. You don't get a tougher test of a horse's feet than doing 100 miles in a day.

The transition period is not cruel - these horses are not left to hobble around, I would never sanction that - and that's why I always recommend using hoof boots. Most horses are immediately sound on soft and smooth surfaces anyway. It might take a little longer on stony surfaces but I see just as many shod horses uncomfortable on stony surfaces.

You say I'm blinkered yet I've been on both sides of the fence. I've had shod horses and I've had barefoot horses - so I think I'm more than qualified to compare them. Have you trained/competed both shod and barefoot horses? Until you have how can you say one way is better than another? My barefoot horses are so much healthier and sounder than they were when shod. They no longer brush or overreach, they don't get filled legs after hard work, their action is straighter and more fluid, their muscle tone is better, they're more sure footed, don't slip on the roads, the condition of their feet is vastly improved, no more cracks, splits or flares. And I do lots and lots of roadwork - I have no choice, where I live to get them fit for competitive endurance I have to do lots of miles on the roads. This improves their feet rather than compromises them. You'd be more than welcome to come and look at my horses feet if you want proof.

I know even before you reply that you'll rubbish everything I've just written - that's okay, fortunately there are plenty of people out there who aren't so close minded. Your retoric used to be the majority view but opinion is thankfully shifting and you only have to read a few threads on here now to see more and more people are giving barefoot a chance and seeing the positive results. It takes a while to change anything, especially in such a traditional world as the horse world, but it is happening and I agree with brucea... another ten years and there will be as many barefoot performance horses as shod ones.
 
brucea said:
Actually not the case - it was the long distance messenger horses.

Many draft type horses do quite well without shoes - I know a few. And they have wonderful concavity
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Our historical research differs by the looks of things.......................
 
It always makes me smile how opinionated people get over the barefoot/shod debate.
I dont think there is one - it depends entirely on the horse & his feet.

I have a TB who has had unresolved soundness issues for years. His last diagnosis (without being able to afford mri) was unbalanced feet resulting in the internal structures 'dropping' as such - looking a little like founder.
Vet advised remedial shoeing & bute for the rest of his life. I did this for 18 months & he was sound with bute. In sept last year I changed farrier. He asked whether I had considered going barefoot. I said I had thought about it but when he'd lost a shoe before he had been incredibly lame.
His feet still weren't good, didn't hold shoes well, cracked, very flat feet & very thin soles. Underun heels. However I bit the bullet on his advise & took them off. First few weeks were very ropey!
A few months on & I had a horse with completley different feet! I cant tell you how much better they are. No cracks, he is starting to develop some heel! Definatley much stronger & healthier. Not only that but he is bute free & sound.
I dont think he will ever be able to do alot of road work - stones are an issue. But its early days & I am going to purchase some boots.
Personally it sounds like he has coped until now - there could be a million reasons why he is footsore which needs to be established. If its the increase in roadwork then boots sound like the way forward.
I would be reluctant now to re shoe having seen the improvement & would definatley consider other options first.
 
It's a pointless argument anyway.

In the end of the day no one would rationally argue that horses evolved to wear shoes, we made them that way by breeding and by habituating them to having that piece of metal round the hoof. It's really for the owner's convenience, not really for the horse's welfare except in some very particular cases.

Many horses do very well without shoes - and the success or otherwise of the venture is down to the owners making the required changes - if changes are required, some horses just get along fine.

All truth goes through three stages....
 
I decided that Ben was going barefoot in January; he was very stiff in his hips and found it traumatic having back shoes nailed on.
He wears Old Macs on the front ( although he isn't sore on tarmac, he is over stones) If I'm doing a long ride I will put the back boots on too, but as the nail holes are growing down to the bottom now, I have been leaving them off more.

He is no long stiff, he is working much softer and in an outline ( something he found hard to do before) and what I love best is the feeling of riding an unshod horse..its like bouncy!!!


On a light hearted note I was so looking forward to a long hack with my friend this morning, but she had to take a rain check because her horse had pulled a shoe off !!

I on the other hand had a lovely time, out for three hours.
 
Isn't that brilliant!

I found when my guys were first unshod I couldn't hear them coming - they'd sneak up on me.

Then after a short time there was a woody "clunk" and now they make a nice clip clop sound a bit like horses with shoes do!!!! ;)

But never losing shoes - oh, now nice is that!
 
brucea said:
Isn't that brilliant!

I found when my guys were first unshod I couldn't hear them coming - they'd sneak up on me.

Then after a short time there was a woody "clunk" and now they make a nice clip clop sound a bit like horses with shoes do!!!! ;)

But never losing shoes - oh, now nice is that!
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I love this too! When my lad first had his shoes off you couldnt hear hear coming at all..he marches around everywhere now & they clunk very nicely! :D
It is a massive saving not having the farrier every five minutes to put shoes back on broken feet..not ot mention the bute!
 
I love the sound of barefeet on the roads!

Also on one of our local rides there is a very steep track that has been tarmaced over. The people with shod horses either have to get off to come down it or avoid altogether, which is what most of them are doing, much to their annoyance. However with my barefoot lot we go down it without a problem, one of mine would trot down if I let him - it's sooooo nice not to worry about slipping!
 
brucea said:
It's a pointless argument anyway.

In the end of the day no one would rationally argue that horses evolved to wear shoes, we made them that way by breeding and by habituating them to having that piece of metal round the hoof. It's really for the owner's convenience, not really for the horse's welfare except in some very particular cases.

Many horses do very well without shoes - and the success or otherwise of the venture is down to the owners making the required changes - if changes are required, some horses just get along fine.

All truth goes through three stages....
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Horses didn't evolve to be ridden, but we ride them.........

You are so suckered into this church mentality, that you don't see how ridiculous it is.

To take your argument to its logical conclusion, you shouldn't even touch your horses feet, if it is to do with the evolution of the horse.

As far as the trite statement here goes..... ''All truth goes through three stages...'' I despair.

If you cannot keep your horse sound and comfortable without shoes, DON'T do it.

And for MrDarcy, please don't put words in my mouth, I neither mentioned, or was referring to, Strasser.

I've seen enough butcher work from KC's 'qualified' trimmers to make me fear for all horses subjected to the whims of barely trained self serving egotists.
 
wow everyone has an opinion..............here is a practical one i hope

http://www.vettec.com/65/products/index.htm

one of the products can be applied to unshod hoofs and provides a barrier, might be worth a try. they are not to expensive and you could talk to your farrier, i am in the process of looking into this for my bare foot 31 yr old

might work might not, he gets stones stuck in his white line, i don't really what to put shoes on and with this i can fill in where the problem area is
 
Caledonia said:
If you cannot keep your horse sound and comfortable without shoes, DON'T do it.
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Sigh...did you actually, read, digest and understand the OP's post where she advises that she couldn't keep him sound and comfortable working WITH shoes and he WAS sound and working comfortably without?

So what do you suggest if shoes don't work - as they didn't in this case, write him off or PTS when it could be easily down to a simple adjustment in management and trim to get him right back to a happy barefoot ridden horse...??? Christ you really have had a bad experience haven't you.
 
I had looked at that from Vetec - I was concerned that it might not be very robust and may cause moisture/bacteria buildup.

I'm afraid Caledonia has a right to have her opinions, I just wish she could express them a bit more pleasantly

In the end of the day we all want to do what is right for our horses in the long term - whether that is shoeing them or letting them grow the hoof that they can grow.
 
the vetec people do one that has copper which is antimicrobial, i think its a case of trying and having ago as with anything what works for one might not work for someone else
 
has his diet or field changed lately?
has the farrier come less often?
my WBxTB has very flat feet but they have improved lots since her shoes came off. i find she cannot go longer than 6 weeks between trims though or her feet start to get wild again very quickly!
 
Twirly said:
Sigh...did you actually, read, digest and understand the OP's post where she advises that she couldn't keep him sound and comfortable working WITH shoes and he WAS sound and working comfortably without?
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"Sigh".... did you actually read the op? No where does it mention an inability to keep the horse sound with shoes on. The lameness was a result of arthritis - which with time and rest seems to be responding well...........
 
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amymay said:
"Sigh".... did you actually read the op? No where does it mention an inability to keep the horse sound with shoes on. The lameness was a result of arthritis - which with time and rest seems to be responding well...........
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The original post clearly stated that the horse had been written off as no longer ridable until she pulled the shoes and allowed him to go barefoot - i.e she could not keep the horse sound in shoes. The OP clearly believes that it is being barefoot that has improved her horse's soundness - as is seen in many many cases. Time and rest generally aren't the prescribed treatments for arthritis - all vets I know advise to keep arthritic horses moving as much as possible... and that it generally gets worse over time and if the horse is rested. Being barefoot reduces concussion siginificantly - by the fact there is no longer metal on the shoe, the hoof can expand and contract, the digital cushion gets stronger and bigger, more circulation etc etc - and allows the horse to use it's limbs as nature designed them to be used (heel first landing not toe first). This provides relief to those achy joints and is why so many arthritic horses improve significantly once they have their shoes removed.
 
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amymay said:
"Sigh".... did you actually read the op? No where does it mention an inability to keep the horse sound with shoes on. The lameness was a result of arthritis - which with time and rest seems to be responding well...........
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For argument's sake lets go back to the OP shall we

was diagnosed with arthritis over year a go. His shoes were removed after finding out about his arthritis and after several long months of care and hard work he became sound; much to the surprise of everyone who said that he would never be ridden/driven again
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Now I'm not being funny Amymay but that is what she's posted
 
my IdxTB has always been shod and never had problems. So Im not a disciple.

My Haflinger I got as a youngster and has never been shod despite having some of the flattest widest feet I know. Initially when she started stony/road work she could get a bit ouchy so I bought her Boa boots, then gradually she needed them less and less.

Now 3 years on, and in two weeks time we do our first endurance ride barefoot, our training has been over tarmac, forest tracks, moors, stony scree and very challenging type1MoT aggregate stony tracks. She has a £10 farrier trim when he shoes the big guy but he usually only needs to simply smooth out any jagged edges, he doesnt mess with the soles and they have thickened nicely.

Flat feet can do it! and I would say persevere for as long as you feel the alternative of shoes would be a higher risk of discomfort. From what you say, that will be a pretty long time.......
 
brucea said:
Quite how shoes can benefit a flat footed horse I don't know - so I would like someone to explain to me how loading a flat hoof peripherally is going to do anything other than damage a sole that is forced into a bridging rather than s supporting role??????

Boots and pads are the way forward to keep him working - and then look at diet. Get any molasses etc out of the diet. Some horses don;t do wel on Alfalfa, remove the garlic and glucosamine, think about ading in seaweed, brewer's yeast, Linseed, Magnesium Oxide.

If he is on grass - this will probably be the cause - often happens in the springtime.

The ONLY way to deal with flat feet is to allow the horse to remodel his hoof capsule with a higher P3 position - using the frog and all round support to encourage that to happen - shoes won't help. Any farrier can tell you this.
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can i just ask why you would remove garlic and glucosamine from a horses diet??? - I am thinking of removing my horses shoes due to unsoundness from navicular -she has both glucosamine and garlic - and also alfa - are these bad for her - she needs the joint supplement for arthritis
sorry OP for hijacking thread - mine is flatfooted too - has been barefoot before and struggled - but considering it as last resort for navicular
 
Hi. I have an ArdennesxID X IDxTbxWB - does he qualify as draft enough?

These are his feet

http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/indiana.html

He's about as rock crunchin' as you'll get and he's never had shoes on (because I was too cheap to pay for shoeing).

Think it's really funny that anyone may think I am brainwashed and that anyone would ever be able to tell me what to do....
 
Think so. He can amble along on the buckle end at home. But stick a competitor in a numbered bib in front of him and it's a whole other story!
 
kezimac said:
can i just ask why you would remove garlic and glucosamine from a horses diet??? - I am thinking of removing my horses shoes due to unsoundness from navicular -she has both glucosamine and garlic - and also alfa - are these bad for her - she needs the joint supplement for arthritis
sorry OP for hijacking thread - mine is flatfooted too - has been barefoot before and struggled - but considering it as last resort for navicular
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There have been studies done that show use of glucosamine increases blood sugar levels. For barefoot horses too much sugar causes footiness and therefore it's safer not to feed it when there are other alternatives available (like rosehips - I saw this new product at BETA recently http://www.litovet.co.uk/, had a look at the independent research and was very impressed).

As for garlic - the debate rages but here is an interesting article on why not to feed it:
http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/feeding/feed/eqgarlic528/ In my own case, no scientific basis behind it, but I've had a couple of horses who went very spooky and sharp when fed a garlic supplement and were much calmer without it.

Alfalfa is a legume and it's it's fresh form is unsuitable grazing for horses as it is very high in protein. Dried as a hay or chop many horses seem to cope with it just fine and maintain strong barefeet but others can't cope with it at all and get very footy and flat soled.

As your horse struggled before barefoot it may be she is in the more sensitive group so cutting out anything that might cause footiness will give you the best chance of success. You may also have to restrict her grazing - if you cut out everything else and she's still footy then restricting her access to grass is the next step. There are horses that are insulin resistant and can't cope with grass even in small amounts.

Good luck with your mare. If you google barefoot and navicular there is a lot of advice and success stories out there - don't give up hope. Nic Barker at Rockley Farm is one of the many who have had some amazing results with horses that have been totally written off with navic.
 
Farriers are trained in shoes not feet. Re-shoeing your horse will not stimulate growth, it stops circulation and will slow it even more. I've looked into various supplements but for growth pretty much all the active ingrediants can be found in garlic! much cheaper than farriers formula. If u do want to go down that route of general suppements, have a look at the Better For Hooves website. Seems best valuefor money and vet/farrier recommended. However, Exercise and stimulation of the hoof is what is goingto get correc t growth. I use a podiatrist to trim my horse and am so pleased with results I did a 3 day course in the subject! Google Trevor Jones DAEP and look at the links on there. If he's already barefoot there is no reason to re-shoe unless he is severley laminitic and needs plactic plates, or if he's had a vet did out an absess which causes the frog to prolapse and he needs a hospital plate- yes my own experiance! I agree it's not worth making older retired horses convert to barefoot as you should just be keeping and maintaining comfort but if he's already shoe free I would never go back!
 
Hi Mel, Ross.

Yep - your horse is gorgeous

There was a study some time ago (I had a copy and can't find it) where the higher levels of garlic fed liong term cause something called heinz body anaemia
 
Puppy said:
LOL! My farrier is perfectly knowledgeable about feet
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How do you know? He told you so?

Try asking him how many feet he was required to dissect as part of his training. And if it was a shod foot or an unshod one. Most farriers have never seen the inside of a (previously - before it died!) healthy working barefoot horse's foot. If they have seen the inside of a foot at all it would normally be one which has been shod, which becomes his benchmark for "normal". Among other things, Bowker's research on cadaver feet concluded that working barefoot horses have lateral cartilages which are around 4 times the volume of a shod horse and contain spiral blood capillaries which are not present in a shod horse's cartilage. Your farrier is a rare beast if he has this information.
 
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