Barefoot- Condition and Winergy

ktj1891

ktj1891

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My boy is barefoot and currently transitioning to get healthy happy feet. Currently weight wise he is looking okay but would really like him to look a bit rounder, he is a very poor doer.

His diet is currently:

Pure Condition
Kwikbeet
Copra
Linseed
Brewers Yeast
Yeasacc
Herbs
FP Winter Balancer

I am running out of my Pure condition and wanted to possible change feed and as I have to order this in bulk am I feeling reluctant to order more. In an ideal world I would just ditch the Pure Condition but unfortunately one he will not eat his feed if he doesn't have this in it and I am afraid he will drop weight.

So I am looking to drop the Pure Condition but to subsitute it with something else. The long term goal is to reduce the conditioning feed and up the kwikbeet and copra but I will need to do this very gradually!

I was therefore looking at the Winergy feeds. Does anyone know the composition of this feed, like what it is made up of?

I have looked at the Winergy Condition which looks similiar to Pure Condition however it states starch is 10% but doesn't list the sugar content. PC is 12.4 % NCS combined.

I also looked at the Winergy growth that looks better NCS wise, however, again what is this feed made up of and is it suitable for a full grown horse to eat?

Muchos advice appreciated!
 
Wheatfeed, Dried lucerne (alfalfa), Grass nuts, Wheat, Soya Hulls, Timothy, Hi Pro soya, Soya oil, Molasses, Sunflower extract, Calcium carbonate, vegetable oil, Salt, Vitamin and mineral premix, Di-calcium phosphate, garlic calcined magnesite, dried mint, lysine.

Personally don't rate pure feeds or any kind of sugar beet.

I have my barefoot ex racer on this; keeps him looking lovely and round combined with the work he is doing.
 
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I heard from a friend who I believe spoke to a nutritionist that the nutrient profile of Pure feeds isn't that great - I haven't looked at it in detail though.

You are however effectively overdosing on your vits and mins if you are feeding the FP balancer in addition to complete feeds. I don't know if it's likely to be causing a problem, but you might potentially be wasting your money.

I feed Winergy Senior as a chaff as like your horse mine is also fussy and this is the one thing I know he will eat his supplements in!

Winergy low is 5% sugar 3.5% starch. Senior is 5% sugar 3.5% starch. Growth is 4% sugar 5% starch. I have fed the growth to my full grown horse before - it is also very tasty, but he likes the senior just as well (he is not senior either!). I think you'd be best off with the Growth, it is 12.5DE compared to 12.4 for the Condition, so actually more energy/condition there but lower starch. Personally I wouldn't want to feed over 10% combined starch/sugar to a transitioning barefoot horse, some barefoot horses can take higher levels but with one that is transitioning it will be hard to tell if it couldn't be happening quicker than it is.

What I feed is the Winergy Senior, Saracen Re-leve (although was on D&H ERS and may go back on this), linseed (3 cups a day), Alfa A Oil, Alfa pellets. He also gets yeasacc, Relax Me and a joint supplement. I have then calculated what he gets in terms of vits/mins in all the above, and I am topping up zinc, copper, selenium, vit e and magnesium to the levels that are in the Forage Plus balancer.

My way is quite complicated, but does mean I can get the supplements down him. Alternatively, you could use the Winergy and then contact Sarah at ForagePlus with the details and ask if you need to adjust the levels of the FP balancer to go with it. You could also try TopSpec Cool Condition cubes which are not a complete feed, but I don't know if they will help him eat the feeds.

Also, although the Re-leve my boy gets is still fairly low starch, I feed it separately from the bulk of his alfa feed. This is because with higher starch feeds they should be fed in small quantities as the starch needs to be digested in the foregut rather than hindgut - if you feed high quantities of starch in one go some gets pushed into the hindgut and can cause problems there (plus can't be digested so is wasted).

Also I'm not sure if you need the brewers yeast on top of the FP balancer - worth asking Sarah that too.
 
Fuzzypuff said:
What I feed is the Winergy Senior, Saracen Re-leve (although was on D&H ERS and may go back on this), linseed (3 cups a day), Alfa A Oil, Alfa pellets. He also gets yeasacc, Relax Me and a joint supplement. I have then calculated what he gets in terms of vits/mins in all the above, and I am topping up zinc, copper, selenium, vit e and magnesium to the levels that are in the Forage Plus balancer.
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Is there a reason you feed alfa a and alfa pellets? If you use the winergy as a chaff, what purpose does the alfa a hold if he is having releve as a main feed too? Given that G is also getting alfa pellets and the winergy itself contains alfalfa too (and is a complete feed) that seems like a lot of feed.

Fuzzypuff said:
Winergy low is 5% sugar 3.5% starch. Senior is 5% sugar 3.5% starch. Growth is 4% sugar 5% starch. I have fed the growth to my full grown horse before - it is also very tasty, but he likes the senior just as well (he is not senior either!). I think you'd be best off with the Growth, it is 12.5DE compared to 12.4 for the Condition, so actually more energy/condition there but lower starch. Personally I wouldn't want to feed over 10% combined starch/sugar to a transitioning barefoot horse, some barefoot horses can take higher levels but with one that is transitioning it will be hard to tell if it couldn't be happening quicker than it is.
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I would discount the low energy OP, looking at what you feed now it simply won't have enough substance to it.

The difference between the growth and condition is negligible at 0.1MJ DE/kg and therefore they can be considered as being of equal calorific value.

Growth:
Grass nuts
Lucerne (20.3%)
Timothy
Moglo coating
Rapeseed oil
Vitamin and mineral pellet

In the pellet:
Wheatfeed
Sunflower extract
Soya hulls
Lysine
Rapeseed oil
Calcium carbonate
Magnesium oxide
Sodium bicarb
Salt
Vitamin and mineral premix

Condition:
Grass nuts
Lucerne (18.8%)
Timothy
Molglo coating
Rapeseed oil spray
Mint leaf
Garlic powder
Vitamin and mineral pellet

In the pellet:
Wheat
Wheatfeed
Sunflower extract
Lysine
Rapeseed oil
Molaferm
Calcium carbonate
Magnesium oxide
Salt
Vitamin and mineral premix

Fuzzypuff said:
You could also try TopSpec Cool Condition cubes which are not a complete feed, but I don't know if they will help him eat the feeds.
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I would steer clear of topspec feeds for barefooters, there is a lot of info on here relating to footiness.
 
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nikkimariet said:
Is there a reason you feed alfa a and alfa pellets? If you use the winergy as a chaff, what purpose does the alfa a hold if he is having releve as a main feed too? Given that G is also getting alfa pellets and the winergy itself contains alfalfa too (and is a complete feed) that seems like a lot of feed.
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I feed the additional Alfa for extra protein and calories and to keep the starch down - otherwise I would need to feed twice as much of the Winergy. Also I think my yard would throw me out if I wanted to use double the Winergy in addition to the releve he gets as it would work out very expensive! The Alfa nuts are left over that I'm using up but actually I am considering soaking the Alfa nuts as a base to mix powders into, and cutting out the Alfa chaff if he will eat this. I suspect he won't eat soaked Alfa nuts even in with his releve and Winergy though, but worth a try. Ideally I'd like to move away from the Alfa oil as a lot of horses seem to have a problem with the Alfa chaffs, possibly due to the mould inhibitors, but many are fine with the nuts though. I'm not keen on the mould inhibitors or the fact that it contains rapeseed oil either.

It IS a lot of feed! He is a big horse and not a good doer unfortunately. Hopefully once I really get to the bottom of the ulcery type problems he will do better on less feed and I will be able to cut it right down. In the summer he does need a lot less, thankfully!

I would steer clear of topspec feeds for barefooters, there is a lot of info on here relating to footiness.
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I *think* the references have all been to the balancers (I had problems with this too with my previous horse). The condition cubes are not fortified and are complementary to main feed so I would assume that they don't contain whatever is the problem in the balancers. At least I would not discount them unless I saw something specific to them regarding footiness. But maybe for a transitioning horse early in the process it's not worth the risk.
 
Fuzzypuff said:
I feed the additional Alfa for extra protein and calories and to keep the starch down - otherwise I would need to feed twice as much of the Winergy. Also I think my yard would throw me out if I wanted to use double the Winergy in addition to the releve he gets as it would work out very expensive! The Alfa nuts are left over that I'm using up but actually I am considering soaking the Alfa nuts as a base to mix powders into, and cutting out the Alfa chaff if he will eat this. I suspect he won't eat soaked Alfa nuts even in with his releve and Winergy though, but worth a try. Ideally I'd like to move away from the Alfa oil as a lot of horses seem to have a problem with the Alfa chaffs, possibly due to the mould inhibitors, but many are fine with the nuts though. I'm not keen on the mould inhibitors or the fact that it contains rapeseed oil either.

It IS a lot of feed! He is a big horse and not a good doer unfortunately. Hopefully once I really get to the bottom of the ulcery type problems he will do better on less feed and I will be able to cut it right down. In the summer he does need a lot less, thankfully!



I *think* the references have all been to the balancers (I had problems with this too with my previous horse). The condition cubes are not fortified and are complementary to main feed so I would assume that they don't contain whatever is the problem in the balancers. At least I would not discount them unless I saw something specific to them regarding footiness. But maybe for a transitioning horse early in the process it's not worth the risk.
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Re: ulcers, it's easy to tweak too many things and then the resultant effects are anyones guess. Generally, if something doesn't agree with Fig, I can tell within 2 days. But it took months for the Releve to show its true colours! You have to sit these things out be patient.

Whilst not a big horse, Fig is in harder work and also a v poor doer. He's doing well on rolled oats as a substitute for some of his winergy - might be worth looking into? Cheap as chips and not sent him insane. Yet...

I've heard and read otherwise re: topspec.

Erm, doesn't winergy contain rapeseed oil?!

OP, for info here's a breakdown of the condition:

Oil and fats 10%
Protein 14%
Fibre 15%
Ash 10%
Sodium 0.4%
Starch 10%
Sugar 5.5%
Vit E 550 IU/kg

I've also got a list of additives if you're interested.

And just in case any one is curious, here is everything you need to know about the high energy:

Wheatfeed, dried lucerne, sunflower extract, rolled oats, wheat, rapeseed oil, flaked maize (so that's where the energy comes from!), naked oats, timothy, calcium carbonate, salt, vit + min premix, lysine, calcined magnesite.

(have a list of additives for this too if anyone wants them)

Breakdown:

Oil and fats 10%
Protein 13%
Fibre 14.5%
Ash 8.45%
Sodium 0.4%
Starch 19%
Sugar 4.5%
Vit E 500 IU/kg
 
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I've also got a list of additives if you're interested. And just in case any one is curious said:
NikkiMarriet thank you for the information that is really helpful, only thing putting me of is sugar and starch is higher that the PC. Does anyone have any alternatives, I will still bear Winergy in mind. My aim is to drop PC and substitute it with something else as well as upping the copra, kwikbeet and linseed.

Anyone got any reviews on adding a grass chaff or hi fi molasses free?
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nikkimariet said:
Re: ulcers, it's easy to tweak too many things and then the resultant effects are anyones guess. Generally, if something doesn't agree with Fig, I can tell within 2 days. But it took months for the Releve to show its true colours! You have to sit these things out be patient.

Whilst not a big horse, Fig is in harder work and also a v poor doer. He's doing well on rolled oats as a substitute for some of his winergy - might be worth looking into? Cheap as chips and not sent him insane. Yet...

I've heard and read otherwise re: topspec.

Erm, doesn't winergy contain rapeseed oil?!
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Thanks, I'm happy with what I'm doing at the moment though, was just trying to suggest things for OP :)

Have you got any links to references to the Top Spec condition cubes and footiness? I've only known people to have problems with the balancers, so it would be good to know.

It's the Alfa A Oil that contains rapeseed oil, not Winergy, which is why I am considering moving away from it.

ktj1891 said:
NikkiMarriet thank you for the information that is really helpful, only thing putting me of is sugar and starch is higher that the PC. Does anyone have any alternatives, I will still bear Winergy in mind. My aim is to drop PC and substitute it with something else as well as upping the copra, kwikbeet and linseed.

Anyone got any reviews on adding a grass chaff or hi fi molasses free?
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Hifi molasses free is nice, they also do an alfa a molasses free which is higher calorie than the hifi. They put I think mint and fenugreek in it to make it more palatable without the molasses. My horse isn't keen on either, however I don't think he would eat Pure feeds either, so this might not be a problem for you.

Pure condition has 7% starch and 5% sugar though - Winergy Low, Senior and Growth all have less starch and sugar than this as I mentioned above. The Growth is 12.5% digestible energy vs. 13% in your Pure Condition - so the Winergy Growth will give you a very similar result. It is fine to feed to adult horses, this was confirmed for me by Spillers (who make it).
 
Okay brill winergy growth may be something to consider then that equals pure condition! I will look at whats in the dengie chaffs and compare!
 
I did the trials of Winergy Conditioning and couldn't get my mare to eat the 6kg a day that they recommend that she had for weight gain.

For extra calories have you tried the ERS pellets? Ive added these to my calm and condition (needed more energy!) and its worked a treat!
 
dianchi said:
I did the trials of Winergy Conditioning and couldn't get my mare to eat the 6kg a day that they recommend that she had for weight gain.

For extra calories have you tried the ERS pellets? Ive added these to my calm and condition (needed more energy!) and its worked a treat!
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Will look them up now do you know the full nutritional analysis and composition?
 
ERS Pellets

Analytical Constituents:
Est. Digestible Energy 13.0 MJ/Kg
Crude Protein 12.5%
Crude Oils and Fats 10.0%
Crude Fibre 16.0%
Crude Ash 9.0%
Copper 55 mg/kg
Sodium 0.4%
Lysine 6 g/kg
Calcium 1.4%
Magnesium 0.2%
Starch 7.0%
Selenium 0.6 mg/kg
Vitamin A 18,000 iu/kg
Vitamin D 1,900 iu/kg
Vitamin E 500 mg/kg

Composition
Grass, Wheatfeed, Oatfeed, Unmolassed Sugar Beet, Full Fat Soya Bean Meal, Vegetable Oil, Fructose, Limestone
Flour, Skimmed Milk Powder, Salt (0.9%), Dicalcium Phosphate, Vitamin/Trace Mineral Premix, Calcium Gluconate,
Powdered: Blackcurrant, Carrot, Beetroot and Tomato (0.15%)
 
nikkimariet said:
Really?

The conditioning, high energy and IIRC the low energy all have rapeseed oil in them.
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Doh, I misread what you wrote, I thought you were saying it didn't have it in. Looks like I won't be able to avoid the rapeseed then, as I can't cut out the Winergy. I am still going to work on cutting out the alfa a oil, partly just because I don't really like what's in the bag these days - it's really powdery even at the top of the bag, and quite dusty. George isn't too keen on it either.
 
I think they reformulated the ERS Pellets about a year ago. The ingredients on my current bag are as follows:

Wheatfeed, oatfeed, alfalfa, unmolassed sugar beet, distiller's wheat grains, vegetable oil, dehulled soya bean meal, fructose, full fat linseed, full fat soya, limestone flour, salt, skimmed milk powder, vitamin/trace mineral premix, calcium gluconate, blackcurrant, kale, spinach, beetroot, rosemary, rosehip, pomegranate, sodium bicarbonate
 
TGM said:
I think they reformulated the ERS Pellets about a year ago. The ingredients on my current bag are as follows:

Wheatfeed, oatfeed, alfalfa, unmolassed sugar beet, distiller's wheat grains, vegetable oil, dehulled soya bean meal, fructose, full fat linseed, full fat soya, limestone flour, salt, skimmed milk powder, vitamin/trace mineral premix, calcium gluconate, blackcurrant, kale, spinach, beetroot, rosemary, rosehip, pomegranate, sodium bicarbonate
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Is your boy barefoot and is it good for conditioning?
 
TGM said:
I think they reformulated the ERS Pellets about a year ago. The ingredients on my current bag are as follows:

Wheatfeed, oatfeed, alfalfa, unmolassed sugar beet, distiller's wheat grains, vegetable oil, dehulled soya bean meal, fructose, full fat linseed, full fat soya, limestone flour, salt, skimmed milk powder, vitamin/trace mineral premix, calcium gluconate, blackcurrant, kale, spinach, beetroot, rosemary, rosehip, pomegranate, sodium bicarbonate
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Agree with you, they did.

I discounted it because of the alfalfa content for Mr Sensitive!
 
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