Barefoot conundrum

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soloequestrian

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I've posted about this before... the 'thin soles' thread has got me thinking again because there are people on there talking about the inevitable improvement of bare feet.
I have one Welsh D x TB who has feet like lumps of iron - he can career about over anything. Our hacking is forestry roads strewn with lumps of granite and frequently he will be cantering along with me going 'stop, it's too stoney' and him going 'shut up, it's fine'.
I have one TB who is on exactly the same managment routine. He has been barefoot for about 7 years. His front feet have a broken-back hoof-pastern axis, collapsed heels and a pathetic frog. His back feet are great. I have treated for thrush, balanced minerals and tried various trims, all to no avail. I've never had him off grass BUT last winter we had about 8 weeks when the grass was inaccessible because of snow and ice, and his feet didn't change at all. He will stride out in walk in the forest, but doesn't like trotting on hard tracks (although he often doesn't mind on the road, but we can't do much roadwork). I won't ever shoe him again - he works well in boots when they're needed and I have the sneaking suspicion that while he isn't perfect bare, he would probably be crippled by now had he kept wearing shoes. I would, though, like him to have rock-crunching feet, so if anyone has any suggestions that I haven't tried, I'd be interested to hear them! I do wonder if he was perhaps shod very early (he is over 17hh so would have been a big youngster) and this has compromised his ability to grow a good front hoof??
 
What work do you do with him? From my limited experience, work makes a massive difference in the foot they grow. Roadwork is fabulous - you say you can't do much of this; is there anything similar you do with him? If he's not comfortable on the surface he's working on then I don't think you'll see an improvement. I reckon that's one of the reasons road work is so good - nice and stimulating, but very comfortable.
 
Weak caudal (back part) of the hoof? I'm just re reading about this and about how useful boots and pads can be so the horse can land heel first comfortably so these structures can be developed and strengthened. Landing persistently toe first the horse gets nowhere. More wear at the toe than heel is an indicator, they should both wear evenly if the horse is moving (loading) correctly. This apparently applies to wear on shoes as well.

My tb's hooves changed dramatically off grass and fed soaked hay. After six months she now has some grazing and some unsoaked hay and we're ok so far (touches wood) but I have added some specific minerals. I do think some tb's are very sensitive to sugars.
 
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I can say my TB is very very sensitive to sugars. So I stopped feeding Speedibeet and no carrots at all, (I'm a meany mum). I also stopped any alfalfa at the same time as I heard some horses are sensitive to this.
Since then he has been sound after being footy in varying degrees for years and I tried him on and off grass for months at a time without success.
Same time as I modified his diet, I moved to a different yard on higher ground where I figured the grass would be different varieties and lower quality.
So far so good. Also since the change, his heels have widened more and his frogs are plumping up. I have to keep his toes right back so I rasp them fortnightly in winter and weekly come spring time.
But spring is his danger time, when the grass comes through, but then that points to sugar again.
 
He does have a weak caudal hoof but he also has a heel-first landing. I've checked it with a slow-mo video. In terms of grass, he doesn't change between summer and winter and they are out on grass (strip grazed) 24/7 in the summer. I think it's possible that the grass plays a small part, but it can't be the whole story because otherwise he would have different feet in the winter, and probably event lines when the spring grass comes through? He doesn't have either. I'm working towards being able to preserve some of the grass and feed them hay at night and grass during the day in summer because I think it will be better for all of them.
A KC La Pierre person suggested using their style of boot pads - apparantly infinitely better than the EasyCare ones, so I will probably have a go with them this year. He is just walking (without boots) in the woods just now, but work, light and weather mean not much work for any of them.
 
My Tb has significantly better more concaved hooves which are nearly rock crunching in the winter which then go splat with the Spring grass, so she is sensitive to grass sugars but not speedibeet (as she only gets fed that in winter). She also has a weak heel and weedy frogs on the fronts, but her underrun heels have improved over the last year and she has grown a better heel which seems to be down to her not being trimmed and entirely self trimming. I'm now attacking her frogs to eliminate any thrush hoping this will improve them. I do think early shoeing has seriously impaired the development of her internal hoof structures which is sad.
 
To get good feet the hoof needs stimulation - this was recognised as far back as Xenophon. Try introducing him to harder, stonier ground for short periods. Yes, he'll be a little uncomfortable but it's no different from us getting used to a pebbly beach - after a few days we don't even notice it. The brain has to recognise what is normal and block out the over-stimulation of the receptors.
Also feed a good broad-based mineral supplement.
 
muff747 said:
I can say my TB is very very sensitive to sugars. So I stopped feeding Speedibeet and no carrots at all, (I'm a meany mum). I also stopped any alfalfa at the same time as I heard some horses are sensitive to this.
Since then he has been sound after being footy in varying degrees for years and I tried him on and off grass for months at a time without success.
Same time as I modified his diet, I moved to a different yard on higher ground where I figured the grass would be different varieties and lower quality.
So far so good. Also since the change, his heels have widened more and his frogs are plumping up. I have to keep his toes right back so I rasp them fortnightly in winter and weekly come spring time.
But spring is his danger time, when the grass comes through, but then that points to sugar again.
Click to expand...
I probably should mention he is retired at the mo so can't self trim in the field and his toes shoot forward in the spring and go splat and then they start splitting so I am regularly doing a light rasp just to keep them where they are. They got away from me the first two springs when he became ill and took all summer to get his toes back again.
 
soloequestrian said:
A KC La Pierre person suggested using their style of boot pads - apparantly infinitely better than the EasyCare ones, so I will probably have a go with them this year. He is just walking (without boots) in the woods just now, but work, light and weather mean not much work for any of them.
Click to expand...
That's interesting. If you try them do let us know.
 
Over the 7 years I've had him (shoes came off immediately), he has had 2 years work with no boots, when we lived somewhere with less extreme hacking - he was fairly fit then. He has then had five years at various stages of fitness, depending on me, weather, and stupid niggly ailments, but he has had plenty of work. Most of his hacking is now booted, but that shouldn't prevent caudal hoof development. Nothing I've done seems to encourage his feet to get stronger.
He is also in a Balance saddle, which he loves, so I don't think it's a 'top down' effect either.
 
Do you use a trimmer? If not it might be worth a visit for a consultation.
Some of mine have different management and dietary needs, perhaps it's worth trying a stricter diet? A couple of months on grass free or soaked hay for example? Are you 100% certain there's no thrush? Perhaps try a soak and a thrush treatment regime for a month? If his frog is weedy it's not getting enough stimulation in my understanding. Is that because he isn't loading it even with the pads and boots? My tb is off grass altogether from yesterday as it's suddenly got colder here. Her hooves tend to go splat.
I don't mean to question your comments I'm just suggesting you look again in case there's something you might be missing. I certainly am not trying to teach my grandmother... :)

Moorman, that link doesn't work.
 
I treated him for thrush, just in case, for about 8-10 weeks last summer - he had regular soaks in Milton, white lightening applied regularly and also the Red Horse sole stuff. No difference again. His frogs do touch the ground, they're just thin and the widest part isn't very wide. They leave frog-prints in his boot pads, so they definitely make contact.
I had a trimmer for a while - really liked her, but again it didn't make any difference to him. We did discuss his sensitivity and agreed that it it unlikely to be grass-related. It's less a sensitive sole than a weak caudal hoof. He is a total skinnymalink too - proper TB - but not particularly bothered about his food, unlike the rock-crunching TBx who is a complete porker and will weave at the gate if I'm a minute late with his dinner.
It's really interesting to read all the posts - helps me think about the problem, just wish I could actually solve it.....
 
My tb was in training at about 20 months and would have been shod then until I took his shoes off at 7.

I do wonder if being shod at such a crucial stage of growth and development does have an influence on what I can expect now.
They may have had shods for the same time or longer but if they were first shod at an older age and had had a chance to develop a more robust foot, they were starting from a better place.

He has been barefoot just under 2 years and still improving.
When I get everything right he happily stomps over rocky tracks at a very fast walk but I don't expect him to negotiate them at speed.
If there is a verge he moves on to it and asks if he can canter but if it's not there he doesn't seem bothered and actually makes more fuss about getting mud or water on his feet.

He's not a typical tb, lazy, greedy and can put on weight easily enough. More like a native brain in a tb body.

His feet are unrecognisable to how they were shod, he had no digital cushion at all, just the lateral cartilages and it is now much better but compared to some horses, still under developed.

I guess only time will tell how far he will get.
 
criso said:
When I get everything right he happily stomps over rocky tracks at a very fast walk but I don't expect him to negotiate them at speed.
If there is a verge he moves on to it and asks if he can canter
Click to expand...

Yes, this is like my boy. He isn't lame on the hard tracks, but he is much lighter on softer going.
I don't have any way of knowing if his digital cushion has improved since his shoes came off - I took them off long before I became aware of all the barefoot literature, so didn't ever really examine the back of his foot too closely. I think his feet are less flat than they were. I wonder if other people are finding similar with horses that have been shod before they had reached maturity?
 
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