Barefoot cruelty

tallyho! said:
If this is how you feel then no one can help that. Its how you choose to feel about it. The discussion will still go on whether you feel blinkered or not. No one is singling you out to say you are an idiot.

I think everyone accepts choices people make and vice-versa. The question was asked and people have answered it.

If you think you have made an informed choice then why are you feeling so angry with people who have made the same informed choices for their horses?
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The thing that gets me is that people tend to judge others by what they do. I don't care what others do regarding shoes. What angers me is those who are too blinkered to ACCEPT that others have other opinons, is that really so difficult?
 
Brightbay said:
Well, let's have a dispassionate look at that idea, shall we? :)

We want to know whether people have any come back if (a) a farrier, regulated by the FRC, or (b) a trimmer, not regulated by any national body, causes a problem with their horse.

Take two recent cases. In one, a farrier caused wilful injury to two horses who had previously been in his care. The issue was dealt with by the FRC and the farrier was suspended for three months.

In another, a trimmer was taken to court by the FRC, for applying a hoofcast to a horse, because they deemed this equivalent to applying a shoe. The Magistrates Court imposed a £450 fine per offence, a victim surcharge of £15 and ordered the trimmer to make a contribution towards prosecution costs of £1,000.

So, regardless of whether there was a regulatory body in place, it was possible to deal with the actions of the trimmer. But despite there being a regulatory body in place, the farrier - who deliberately lamed two horses, was simply suspended for three months. As this was April, he's presumably back out there, working with horses.

I do not make decisions on faith, but on evidence, and this evidence suggests to me that having a regulatory body is ineffective.
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I'll apologise as I've not had a chance to read through this thread and this link may have already been shared, here it states how the trimmer had to plead guilty too as having no funds to defend the claim whereas farriers get all the backing they need!
http://fightingforthebarefoothorse.com/
 
maisie06 said:
I am not messing around with minerals
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And here we have the crux of the "them and us" problem.

If I now say to you "does that not mean that you are saying that you do not care whether your horse has health issues because of mineral imbalances", you'll tell me that I am accusing you of being a bad owner, won't you?

And yet it does seem to me that what you are saying is that you simply do not care whether your horse has mineral imbalances that are causing him to be unable to work without shoes on. If I took the same approach, my horses would be continue to be copper deficient, with other problems in addition to foot issues, like sweet itch and propensity to get laminitis, which I used to have to deal with until I took their shoes off and their feet let me know that I needed to sort out something in their diet.

Did you mean that, or did you just write it in the heat of the moment?
 
Alyth said:
As has been said many times - all horses can go barefoot - not all owners can!! Good luck.
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I do not believe this and I do not think it helps to repeat it.

There are many horses which have undiagnosed metabolic disease which cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are many diagnosed metabolic horses which even with treatment cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are horses that have been in shoes so long who have such corrupted feet and are of an age where it would be pointlessly cruel to make a transition to barefoot.

There are horses which could go barefoot but require such a restrictive regime that the owner is perfectly justified in believing that the horse would be better off in shoes with more freedom.

And others.

Many horses can do it really easily. Many horses can do it with a little more difficulty. Some horses can do it only with such difficulty that it is pointless to try. And some can't do it no matter what. We should all respect that.






ps this does not mean that I will agree with any one person that any one horse "just can't do it" until that person has heavily restricted carbohydrate intake, got a good trimmer on board (farrier or not), got a properly designed work schedule under way and checked for and corrected mineral imbalance. Sorry!
 
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cptrayes said:
I do not believe this and I do not think it helps to repeat it.

There are many horses which have undiagnosed metabolic disease which cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are many diagnosed metabolic horses which even with treatment cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are horses that have been in shoes so long who have such corrupted feet and are of an age where it would be pointlessly cruel to make a transition to barefoot.

There are horses which could go barefoot but require such a restrictive regime that the owner is perfectly justified in believing that the horse would be better off in shoes with more freedom.

And others.

Many horses can do it really easily. Many horses can do it with a little more difficulty. Some horses can do it only with such difficulty that it is pointless to try. And some can't do it no matter what. We should all respect that.






ps this does not mean that I will agree with any one person that any one horse "just can't do it" until that person has heavily restricted carbohydrate intake, got a good trimmer on board (farrier or not), got a properly designed work schedule under way and checked for and corrected mineral imbalance. Sorry!
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Fab post :)
 
cptrayes said:
I do not believe this and I do not think it helps to repeat it.

There are many horses which have undiagnosed metabolic disease which cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are many diagnosed metabolic horses which even with treatment cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are horses that have been in shoes so long who have such corrupted feet and are of an age where it would be pointlessly cruel to make a transition to barefoot.

There are horses which could go barefoot but require such a restrictive regime that the owner is perfectly justified in believing that the horse would be better off in shoes with more freedom.

And others.

Many horses can do it really easily. Many horses can do it with a little more difficulty. Some horses can do it only with such difficulty that it is pointless to try. And some can't do it no matter what. We should all respect that.






ps this does not mean that I will agree with any one person that any one horse "just can't do it" until that person has heavily restricted carbohydrate intake, got a good trimmer on board (farrier or not), got a properly designed work schedule under way and checked for and corrected mineral imbalance. Sorry!
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Great post , I failed to get our ID working BF over the summer I think there was lots of reasons for that .
He's a horse with many issues he's been ill in the past he's an good doer of epic proportions and was very very fat when he arrived it's a long list of things that I understand now better than I did in April last year.
I have worked hard on him and he's the slimmest he's been he's not a horse you can exercise slim as you have be careful with his limbs so exercise has to be carefully managed he has Anhidrosis as well which we have now managed to partially resolve.
I shod him in September when his proper job started and he had to earn his keep I honestly don't think I can ever get this horse doing his job BF but if I can get him BF in the summer using boots for exercise if necessary it will be good for him we corrected his toe first landing over the summer and he's doing ok in natural balance shoes.
So I do think BF people who say every horse can BF are probally not correct I don't think this horse can and do his job.
 
cptrayes said:
I do not believe this and I do not think it helps to repeat it.

There are many horses which have undiagnosed metabolic disease which cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are many diagnosed metabolic horses which even with treatment cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are horses that have been in shoes so long who have such corrupted feet and are of an age where it would be pointlessly cruel to make a transition to barefoot.

There are horses which could go barefoot but require such a restrictive regime that the owner is perfectly justified in believing that the horse would be better off in shoes with more freedom.

And others.



I
Many horses can do it really easily. Many horses can do it with a little more difficulty. Some horses can do it only with such difficulty that it is pointless to try. And some can't do it no matter what. We should all respect that.






ps this does not mean that I will agree with any one person that any one horse "just can't do it" until that person has heavily restricted carbohydrate intake, got a good trimmer on board (farrier or not), got a properly designed work schedule under way and checked for and corrected mineral imbalance. Sorry!
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I stand corrected But I would like to see alternatives, such as boots, tried before resorting to shoes. Usually it is the other way round.....I would also like to point out, as others have done, that accusatory and critical posts come from both "sides". I would like to apologise if my opinions have caused offence to anyone.....
 
Zargon_91 said:
I wonder how many barefooties are aware that currently there are massive movements going on amongst the BHS/farriers guild/welfare groups to get barefoot trimming covered under the same legislation as other alternative treatments. When it is passes, it will be ILLEGAL for anyone to treat a horse (including their own) without the permission of their vet, and a full professional qualification. This is the same legislation which covers physiotherapy and chiropractic etc.
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Well when your horse has every leg excluded on the insurance because of lameness problems caused by shoes, it doesn't really matter when they refuse to pay.

And most people's vets would endorse any trimmer who they have seen bring back from death's door to full health.....your comment does not cause me any concern whatsoever.
 
Quote Aylth.

I stand corrected But I would like to see alternatives, such as boots, tried before resorting to shoes. Usually it is the other way round.....I would also like to point out, as others have done, that accusatory and critical posts come from both "sides". I would like to apologise if my opinions have caused offence to anyone.....

Nice post.
 
PR... you do know that you can press the "quote" button or the " "+ "at the bottom right of posts and it will quote or multiquote for you?

Bless you, copy and pasting all this time... :)
 
Horsesforever1 said:
I seem to hear of more and more barefoot horses having abscesses including an endurance horse I know of which was PTS because of them. The owners/riders choose not to try shoes at all but insist barefoot is the only way.
This does not appear to be in the best interests of the horse.
I have both shod and unshod horses, whether or not they need shoes depends on the work done and the terrain. No way would any of mine do the amount of work I require of them on the roads without shoes.
A local riding school has all shioeless because they only go on grass and in a rubber surface manage, they simply dont need shoes.
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Its funny how you believe that barefoot horses ar emore prone to absesses, I have actually found its the other way round. One of my ponies went from being shod for years and suffering from 2 absesses a year (every single year) and also bruised soles etc. to me changing him to barefoot - the difference has been amazing. Yes, the pony is occassionally "footy" if the ground is really frozen solid in the field however he was MORE footy when he was shod. He has also suffered NO absesses or bruised soles since! He has never looked better!

I completely agree that common sense should prevail with either being shod or barefoot. It definately depends upon the work the horse is doing and also how the horse copes. My grey (who I used to compete, now he's injured) I used to have shod during the eventing season as I needed studs - I would never compete without shoes on after a certain level SJ and eventing (and I have tried). I'd love for someone to develop hoof boots which I am allowed to use for eventing and BSJA and I'd never shoe again. Over the winter, his shoes were taken off and he loved it. Now he's injured and basically a field ornament I have him unshod permanently and just trimmed by the farrier, I dont want him barefoot trimmed simply because he has no problems as it is so why change. I have another horse who is shod permanently, because this is what works for him. And then 2 retired ponies who are barefoot trimmed. You just have to see what works for the horse. By choice, I'd always start barefoot and only shoe when necessary though. I dont like the automatic shoe-the-horse though as default, not all horses should go barefoot but likewise not all horses should be shod!
 
just out of interest... how many people with barefoot horses have them in work? and i dont mean hacking out a few times a week- i mean schooling for an hour a day, and jumping and competing? My horse used to be shoeless and tbh, he was eating pretty much a barefoot diet because i was feeding him the same thing (for ease over most things) as my sugar intolerant cushings horse. But when i got him fit and started working him properly his feet just couldnt keep up with the wear so he was shod. He also has windgalls on his hindlegs which have reduced significantly since he has been shod. Just wondering if maybe barefoot isnt such an option for serious competition horses? Also to add, my horse has never been shod before I had him- so it wasnt just that his feet werent accustomed to the stresses they were loaded with.
 
Hundreds of us. Probably thousands of us.

I hunt and used to event. Rockley Farm has a mileage log of their team of hunters doing hundreds of miles a season if you check it. There are usually 3 other barefoot horses out with me. Plenty of other people event.


What do you mean by "couldn't keep up with the wear"? Was the horse unsound?

I wouldn't necessarily attribute the windgall disappearance to shoes. Many horses get windgalls when their workload is increased which disappear when they get used to the additional exercise.
 
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he was getting footy, his feet were wearing unevenly and his soles were coming into contact with the ground because the wall was wearing away to quickly. His legs also started filling, and his windgalls got worse the more he wore down! As i say it couldnt have been transitioning, as he was always shoe less before i had him. I also got him fit very slowly, and only resorted to putting shoes on him about 6 months into owning him- I gave it a try but in his case it just didnt work
 
CPT hunts her horses.

My mare is getting fitter having been out of work for 1 1/2 years (Farrier nearly caused her to be PTS) and I'm hoping to not need to shoe again. Now she has progressed to 2 hours of seriously hilly hacking. She finds working on a surface or grass easy, but we like to go exploring and I really need to rake the leaves from the sand school.

ETA. cross posted with CPT - that will teach me to be so slow when typing! ;)
 
Zargon_91 said:
he was getting footy, his feet were wearing unevenly and his soles were coming into contact with the ground because the wall was wearing away to quickly. His legs also started filling, and his windgalls got worse the more he wore down! As i say it couldnt have been transitioning, as he was always shoe less before i had him. I also got him fit very slowly, and only resorted to putting shoes on him about 6 months into owning him- I gave it a try but in his case it just didnt work
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The soles are supposed to be in contact with the ground in a ring around the inside of the white line and especially on the toe callous.

If you were in the same position now asking for advice how not to shoe we would be suggesting that you look at his grass intake and into mineral balancing.

There are certainly plenty of horses which can cope fine. I've personally owned nine, with no failures, including one who arrived with feet so soft I could bend them with my fingers.
 
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No, i mean his whole sole- and he doesnt get turned out because im at collage and i cant risk him getting kicked- he is a valuble horse to me. He is fed hay, and has a feed balancer with full recommended doses of chelated minerals. Im not against horses not having shoes on, and can apreciate it can be beneficial. Both of the horses ive owned have been without shoes- id prefure them to be that way tbh, its alot cheaper!
I guess the point im trying to make is that whilst im not against horses being barefoot, and will openly try it- will any of the barefoot people (im sorry i dont know an official title) ever at any point accept that a horse might need shoes?
 
Zargon_91 said:
just out of interest... how many people with barefoot horses have them in work? and i dont mean hacking out a few times a week- i mean schooling for an hour a day, and jumping and competing? My horse used to be shoeless and tbh, he was eating pretty much a barefoot diet because i was feeding him the same thing (for ease over most things) as my sugar intolerant cushings horse. But when i got him fit and started working him properly his feet just couldnt keep up with the wear so he was shod. He also has windgalls on his hindlegs which have reduced significantly since he has been shod. Just wondering if maybe barefoot isnt such an option for serious competition horses? Also to add, my horse has never been shod before I had him- so it wasnt just that his feet werent accustomed to the stresses they were loaded with.
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I'm a little puzzled regarding your comment about horses in work as it seems you are saying hacking isn't work.
I ride a friend's cob and though at the moment because of weather time etc she isn't being ridden as much as usual she is still hacking out 2-3 times a week for 3-4 hrs and is quite happy striding out across flints, newly surfaced roads etc. I don't jump but her owner used to jump her barefoot and she was often the only horse that didn't slip, she had her shoes removed almost 4 years ago and has been sound every day since. Another of my friend's horses is a tb x she has never been shod and has feet like granite and again copes with any surface but as she's quite young I can't comment on her jumping ability.
Having reread this I think the phrase 'copes with any surface' is misleading as it implies that she only just manages, she walks on stoney ground with as much confidence if not more than a shod horse as her soles are really tough as well as the hoof wall.
 
it was just kinda covering against people replying who hack for 20 minutes twice a week :) im not trying to stir, im generally interested. Id hack mine more if i could! Unfortunately he is very naughty so its baby steps for a while, i wouldnt want to put road users in danger.
 
will any of the barefoot people (im sorry i dont know an official title) ever at any point accept that a horse might need shoes?
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Every single one of the barefoot people have said that sometimes you should shoe.

Your horse has no turnout at all?

I'm a little puzzled regarding your comment about horses in work as it seems you are saying hacking isn't work.
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I noticed that too. Ok a quick pootle down the lane isn't strenuous, but when you are doing longer distances or tricky terrain, it's definitely 'work'.
 
i accept that, yes but like i said above ^^^^
we have access to a turnout ring, so he goes out every day, but eats hay- not grass. He goes out a few hours a day when i go home though. And as far as every barefoot saying sometimes shoes are acceptable, you are the first!
 
Not true. CPT did a huge thread on good shoeing.

They have also advised people who are (for example) at livery and can't restrict the diet enough to put shoes on. No-one would want a horse to suffer if the conditions needed to keep them unshod can't be met.

I have four horses without shoes. One is retired, two are young (not in work yet) and the fourth was the one that the Farrier nearly ruined. She can work for two hours without shoes, so I don't think that she needs them. I have a new Farrier now and I would let him shoe my horses, but I really, really hope that I don't need to.
 
Zargon_91 said:
No, i mean his whole sole- and he doesnt get turned out because im at collage and i cant risk him getting kicked- he is a valuble horse to me. He is fed hay, and has a feed balancer with full recommended doses of chelated minerals. Im not against horses not having shoes on, and can apreciate it can be beneficial. Both of the horses ive owned have been without shoes- id prefure them to be that way tbh, its alot cheaper!
I guess the point im trying to make is that whilst im not against horses being barefoot, and will openly try it- will any of the barefoot people (im sorry i dont know an official title) ever at any point accept that a horse might need shoes?
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Zargon if your hay is really high in iron and or manganese or low in copper, then any standard mineral balancer will result in copper deficiency. Copper deficiency can result in flat feet with poor growth.

I always accept that some horses need shoes and many horse/owner combinations need shoes. It doesn't, though, follow that your one horse did. I would have had your forage (and water if you are on a spring supply) tested before I would have shod, but then I am a fully paid up member of the Barefoot Taliban :D

Now that you have explained that he has no turnout, you have answered the question anyway. There are many, many horses whose feet simply won't grow fast enough to work hard barefoot if they have insufficient movement. That was very likely to have been your problem.
 
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Zargon_91 said:
he was getting footy, his feet were wearing unevenly and his soles were coming into contact with the ground because the wall was wearing away to quickly. His legs also started filling, and his windgalls got worse the more he wore down! As i say it couldnt have been transitioning, as he was always shoe less before i had him. I also got him fit very slowly, and only resorted to putting shoes on him about 6 months into owning him- I gave it a try but in his case it just didnt work
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I don't understand what you are wanting to hear?

Barefoot didn't work out for you and your horse so you put shoes on.

And that's cool :).

Now you are both happy :).

If shoes work for you both then that's all that matters, surely? Who cares what barefooters do? :confused:

The Tank and I did 280 competitive miles at CTR between June and October in his first season.
His hooves never looked better :).
 
oberon- that is exactly what ive been wanting to hear! someone who accepts that there are different ways of doing things, and as long as it works for the horse, who cares! unfortunately i really feel that barefoot or shod is dangerous if the owner doesnt know why they are doing it. The amount of people that truely shouldnt own horses in this country is unreal, and frankly some people (barefoot AND shod) who are so tunnel minded they will swear that only one will work is also alarming- i think its dangerous to have such an unbalanced view.
 
Sorry Zargon but my horse is priceless to me. No amount of money could buy him off me. I value him so much I wouldnt keep him with no turnout as I think it is cruel and unnatural. I believe someone commented on a thread the other day that it is illegal in either Germany or Switzerland to keep horses without turnout.

As to work, mine SJ's, does XC, hacks, does endurance rides and works for hours in the school. Since monday, he has done 18 miles of roadwork.

Maybe I'm just lucky ;)
 
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