Barefoot cruelty

Sorry not clever enough to do links and things. My post was a query about unridden brood mare. Because I didn't initially get any response from barefoot people I assumed there was nothing I could change. Then I got a full onslaught about refusing to listen to those who know best etc etc. To be honest my comments were being twisted and not read accurately. It was just a complete rant at me accusing me of listening to the
wrong people (others who had responded to my queries earlier in the thread) talk about arrogant patronising attitude. Thankfully I have now had some super help for my mare, who was never going to be shod and is now showing improvement. Had I owned a shod ridden horse thinking of going barefoot the experience here would gave closed that door for me.
 
ribbons said:
Sorry not clever enough to do links and things. My post was a query about unridden brood mare. Because I didn't initially get any response from barefoot people I assumed there was nothing I could change. Then I got a full onslaught about refusing to listen to those who know best etc etc. To be honest my comments were being twisted and not read accurately. It was just a complete rant at me accusing me of listening to the
wrong people (others who had responded to my queries earlier in the thread) talk about arrogant patronising attitude. Thankfully I have now had some super help for my mare, who was never going to be shod and is now showing improvement. Had I owned a shod ridden horse thinking of going barefoot the experience here would gave closed that door for me.
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Here is the thread for you.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=560381

FWIW - I never really got involved in that thread because I was;

a) working nights and not on the forum at the time.

b) not confident in advising on brood mares as I have no experience in them or their needs :)
 
cornbrodolly said:
Ah yes, 'trimmed' , by a person who has done a few weekends with the latest barefoot guru .

But dont get me started on the endurance people whose horses after a competition have to be turned away for weeks because they are so sore....

Also, as barefoot is so much better for humans [ at least horses get shoes that are fitted, unlike us!] why are these barefoot taliban stood in nice comfy boots them selves?
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I'd like to see your evidence for these points, as in my experience your posts do not represent the majority of barefoot horses and their owners :)
 
Well first and foremost my highly trained farrier suggested getting my horses out of shoes ASAP for a break. Actually he's been at me since he took over my shoeing 1 1/2 years ago. And longer with my jumping mare. I was the one saying no way. My horses are 100% on concrete and the arena. On stony ground they are careful but not crippled. The interesting thing is they were always careful of stoney ground with shoes too. Unless I had the pour in pads on. But being 100% sound on concrete tells me that the back of their foot is starting to do it's job properly.

One of the reasons my farrier suggested bare for a bit is because the only way forward for her were pads and wedges. I was not going that route and farrier agreed.

I have also not found people holier than thou on here nor people like Nic from Rockley. Far from it. All have said try it and know you can always go back to shoes. Any so called holier than thou could have come from the fact that I was quite obnoxious in telling them they were wrong! I have apologised for being quite rude.

I'm planning on sticking with this as long as my horses are comfortable. I won't let them be miserable but I'm not seeing that. They didn't look to unhappy galloping up the torn up (with stones) field today. Bucking and going mad. With shoes on I'm sure someone would have lost a shoe.

And FWIW, I watched an absolutely gorgeous mare succumb to laminitis this year. Seems when she started going footy this year a blacksmith slapped on shoes. This was in the spring. She was better for a bit and 8 weeks later she was dead. That farrier has a lot to answer for. He had to know.

Terri
 
ribbons said:
I had genuine barefoot questions, I didn't know enough. I came here with my queries and got the hell back out sharpish. I got the impression barefoot enthusiasts were only interested in telling me in no uncertain terms that I was an idiot and their way was the only way. (actually to be fair not everyone but mostly) I was interested so I made enquireries elsewhere and did find excellent help and advice from some lovely people who were interested in advising me rather than dictating.
This is a very scary and unpleasant place to discuss barefoot issues. Unless you are a spectator, as shown by the chairs being pulled up and the popcorn opened.
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grumpyoldmare said:
Exactly this! I have now gone 'elsewhere' to get more information that I needed to make my decision to take my horse shoeless. Thanks to some calm, sensible, non judgemental but very experienced barefooter's help and guidance on other forums, I will be taking the plunge this weekend. But if after a fair trial it doesn't work I will not hesitate to put shoes back on. But I won't be posting on here about it!;)
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whereas it was due to reading posts on here (albeit not asking direct questions on the board) and some very helpful input via pm by people in here that I decided to give it a go, because if it didn't work after fair trial the horse would be retiring so wouldn't have shoes on anyway in all probability.

In march I had a lame horse facing retirement.
I now have a sound horse who is hacking out and more recently schooling happily and in part that is down to this forum.

It has all been done sensibly though, with plenty of patience, boots as required and with for the most part a reduced work load.
 
I use a farrier.

My farrier is from another european country and therefore had to study all over again to get a licence here.

I won't let another person touch my horses feet. Some are barefoot, some are shod, depends on the horse and the work I'm doing.

One horse came back from loan crippled with an abcess as the vet had mis-diagnosed, the first time the abcess appeared it was not cleared up, then it came back and it took 6 months of hard work by the farrier and us to get him sound again. Everyday, rain or shine, he was stood in a bucket of hot water with salt (I could have shares in a salt company now!) and although loads of other people, whose opinions were not asked for...told me to use all sorts of lotions and potions, we used the good old fashioned remedy and that sorted him out.

My horse had to grow a new frog as the other simply disappeared....AND (horror of horrors) a shoe was put on to help support the rest of the foot, our farrier was meticulous at making sure his foot was level, and all the bits of the foot that needed to be in contact with the ground were in contact with the ground. Recovery for the foot after that was swift.

We got a bit worried, thought if might be the end for him, but I believed in the professional I was paying to sort him out and he did.

There are good and bad eggs in all professions, and if you find one, then stick with them, but I still believe in training, experience and qualifications.

...and people using angle grinders on horses feet...there is another argument....
 
Thank you Oberon, I am a techno numpty. Although I can't imagine why any one would wish to read it again. It was a totally unproductive thread.
 
Oberon said:
Here is the thread for you.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=560381

FWIW - I never really got involved in that thread because I was;

a) working nights and not on the forum at the time.

b) not confident in advising on brood mares as I have no experience in them or their needs :)
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Thanks, Oberon. I actually don't think anyone was calling the OP stupid on that thread, just giving advice, which was asked for.:confused:

I can see the OP got very defensive and angry though, and I rather suspect this thread is the result of that anger.
 
ribbons said:
Thank you Oberon, I am a techno numpty. Although I can't imagine why any one would wish to read it again. It was a totally unproductive thread.
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It seemed relevant as I'd missed it at the time and you referred to it here. Yes I can see CPT's advice was quite direct, but I didn't think it was offensive.
 
Yes and owners. They already got my wrath, but BS said nothing to worry about she's just the type that needs shoes. It's clear it was much more.

I don't know really. For now things are working. But shoes or no shoes people really ought to pay more attention to what's in a bag of feed, grazing, and any intolerances a horse may have. It will always present in feet. That much was apparent to me before I went bare. I haven't used commercial feeds for ages now.

Anyway, we can only do best by our horses.

Terri
 
Ribbons, I thought the post was very informative. It only got heated after you decided pretty early to discount any advice given to you, and deciding you had nothing to learn.

You may not like her style, but I can see why cptrayes got so cross.
 
Horses for courses... Our ridden horses are shod.
Never been unsound, and never in 16 years have we had any absesses. The Shetland pony is barefoot, and always has been - apart from 16 years ago wh he was on loan and doind alot of roadwork so had shoes in front. Funnily enough he's the one who's had absesses when barefoot.
I truly believe there is a place for both, however I object to the backhanded comments about the higher level of time and care required nutrition wise to manage a barefoot horse.
I have seen bad farriers cripple horses, and have seen horses who need something more that a naked hoof.
At the end of the day, I have to ask, what is natural about apumping a horse full of supplements and dedicated types of feed to promote good horn growth??? Equally, the minute you add a rider and tack, you are not dealing with 'how nature intended', so the natural arguement is floored if you are sitting on the barefoot horse.
There are no rights and wrongs, and I truly believe barefoot has helped many, but to call barefoot natural is a load of tosh - and yes, there should be a much better accreditation scheme, and also stronger punishment for bad farriers too.
I feel very fortunate that we have a fantastic farrier.

Dons tin hat, and digs in with popcorn at the ready :D
 
I don't respond to barefoot posts on here any more as a rule - especially ones as emotively and prejudicially worded as this one - unless I believe the OP is genuinely looking for help.

There are less hostile places than HHO to get help if you are genuinely looking for barefoot help.

PM me or Oberon if you want to know where to go and we can direct you - but I am one of the admins of the other "place" so fair warning that I won't tolerate posts of the tone of the OP's posts that seek to criticise barefoot horses, trained trimmers, their owners or other hoof care professionals in a non-constructive way.

Those of us who have been deeply involved in "barefoot" as it is called, know that barefoot alone is not always the answer, there are many interrelated aspects to the horse's health, and the welfare of the horse has to come first, beyond any dogma - whether that is pro or anti-shoeing dogma.

Many serious barefooters are happy with their trimmers, happy with their farriers, and some have had very bad experiences of both trimmers and farriers. We'll not go into the angle grinder discussion - that's a very special person. ;)

The farrier vs trimmer argument is old news and not welcome any more, bringing it up is simply means that the poster is trotting out the argument. Worse, it is highly disrespectful to the organisations who have invested their own time and money in developing training syllabi, worked with Lantra to develop occupational standards and offer a program of structured training.

Both farriers and trimmers have valuable professional input to make, and it it the horse owner's responsibility to ensure that ALL professionals engaged in the care of their horses are doing the very best for the horse. The ability to reason, observe, make good decisions - this is not something the horse owner can delegate or abdicate from.
 
I have seen horses hobbling around for weeks, with owners merrily commenting on their "transitioning" horses. I would simply call them lame horses. And I have seen many people called stupid, and thick, who came on here, asked questions about the barefoot phenomenon and had the temerity to disagree. Being zealous and "right" in your own mind does not give anyone a license to be downright rude. Many barefooters do their cause no good at all with their attitudes.
 
FionaM12 said:
It seemed relevant as I'd missed it at the time and you referred to it here. Yes I can see CPT's advice was quite direct, but I didn't think it was offensive.
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I have to disagree, I remember this thread well as it was part of my barefoot research:rolleyes:. I don't think CPT's advice was offensive, but I am rarely offended as I do have quite a tough old hide. However, IMO, she was far more than direct, she was arrogant and her tone was patronising.

Not a helpful attitude to have when offering advice to someone on ANY aspect of horse care, but there you go, I am sure that CPT has all the knowledge, but sadly the bedside manner leaves a lot to be desired and does not help to spread the word really does it?
 
Whereas I have had a lot of helpful advice from CP in particular.. and she didn't berate me when I put bar shoes on in the first instance either ;).
 
I agree with Ester - it was as a result of reading info on here and the "other" forum of which I'm a member that I decided to give barefoot a go - I would have had a field ornament or dead horse if not. I had PMs with Oberon and CPT and had lots of good advice. But I'm not saying I would not shoe - my old TB who I lost last year could never ever go without front shoes - any diet, conditioning etc did not help him. He just couldn't do it. My current one is great without shoes, and as previously stated would have been a field ornament otherwise - but I have boots for if she gets footy. Surely as an owner it's your responsibility to do the best for your horse whether that's to shoe or not. I'm sure there are plenty of shod horses out there which would be just as happy without shoes and some out there without shoes which would benefit from being fitted with them!
 
littlelegs said:
I know an idiot with a crippled, barefoot horse. I also know an idiot with a crippled shod horse. The problem isn't with the method both have chosen, its the fact they haven't gone about it properly. The problem is idiots, not method.
I also know horses that live out 24/7 who are not happy because its done badly. That doesn't justify all turnout being bad, just that the owner's a moron. It applies to most stuff, barefoot is no different.
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This! Although I do have a problem with 'barefoot' as opposed to unshod! We have 14, 13 are unshod and one has fronts on because he simply cannot cope without on any terrain, we tried for over a year and put his shoes back on. The 5 horses have all been shod at some point, the 8 ponies have never had shoes on in their lives, we took shoes off because we couldn't ride out but they would go back on if we started hacking and they were needed. We have a farrier, he is brilliant, I used a trimmer in the past, she was good until she nearly blinded my youngster and so wasn't asked back. It really is down to the owner and their preferences and others should respect their choices rather than attempting to lecture (from both camps!)
 
My young gelding is having his first fronts on next week - TBH I don't give a fig what others think, my lad has got to the point of needing shoes so he shall have them. I want him to increase his work now and I'm not happy with boots.
 
Boots are the answer! I used to wish and wish someone would invent some horse trainers, giving hoof protection but also shock absorbing and removable to save all the issues that often arise with nail on shoes. Yes there have always been crummy boots, but the standard over the last few years has risen so much. I don't think we're at a point yet where boots can replace shoes for most horses doing most jobs, but I hope its just a matter of time.

However, booted is not barefoot, its not even unshod. Its just using shoes which only attach to horses on the outside, not anywhere on the inside AFAIC.
 
Pale Rider said:
littlelegs

I know an idiot with a crippled, barefoot horse. I also know an idiot with a crippled shod horse. The problem isn't with the method both have chosen, its the fact they haven't gone about it properly. The problem is idiots, not method. I also know horses that live out 24/7 who are not happy because its done badly. That doesn't justify all turnout being bad, just that the owner's a moron. It applies to most stuff, barefoot is no different.

Love this post.
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Exactly!!
 
Flame_ said:
Boots are the answer! I used to wish and wish someone would invent some horse trainers, giving hoof protection but also shock absorbing and removable to save all the issues that often arise with nail on shoes. Yes there have always been crummy boots, but the standard over the last few years has risen so much. I don't think we're at a point yet where boots can replace shoes for most horses doing most jobs, but I hope its just a matter of time.

However, booted is not barefoot, its not even unshod. Its just using shoes which only attach to horses on the outside, not anywhere on the inside AFAIC.
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I agree with this soooo much, it would be the perfect solution for most leisure riders and I am sure would eventually progress to all areas of work. The day will come I hope where this is the norm!
 
Sorry I can't quote on phone but FionaM12 after reading the linked thread said....I can see OP got very defensive and angry and I suspect this thread is the result of that anger.
Can I just point out I was the OP of the linked thread. I am NOT the OP of this thread. I have no more connection to it than the comments I have posted. Just thought I'd clear that up as the implication was this thread was my doing as a direct result of my annoyance about my own thread.
 
Holly Hocks said:
But I'm not saying I would not shoe - my old TB who I lost last year could never ever go without front shoes - any diet, conditioning etc did not help him. He just couldn't do it. My current one is great without shoes, and as previously stated would have been a field ornament otherwise - but I have boots for if she gets footy. Surely as an owner it's your responsibility to do the best for your horse whether that's to shoe or not. I'm sure there are plenty of shod horses out there which would be just as happy without shoes and some out there without shoes which would benefit from being fitted with them!
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Completely agree. I do not think the opinion that all horses can happily go barefoot is accurate as I do think there are congenital problems with some horse's hooves. To say that there is not a genetic factor is silly. It is the same as saying that there is no genetic predispostion to sickle hocks, long backs, weak pasterns...
 
Naturally said:
The problem with making claims like the ones in your post, is that you risk looking foolish if you are making similar mistakes.

It isn't only barefoot horses who get abcesses, not by a long shot. It is perfectly possible for horses to work hard and long on the roads without shoes, either by proper conditioning of the feet or use of hoof boots. Shod horses can also be footy on stones.
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If they are wearing boots they are not barefoot! the foot [hoof if its a horse] isnt bare if wearing a boot. It is obviously in need of protection. Hence the boot.
Or shoe. ;)
 
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