Barefoot cruelty

very much different kind of protection though and I think most people use boots as a means to an end, you can take boots off at the end of the day, they don't restrict foot function as much, don't suspend the sole/frog away from weightbearing etc. I fully intend on having my lad bare for all his work eventually, but it would be unfair to expect that of him straight away given that he has likely been shod for the last 15 years.

My instructor was hugely sceptical.. thought we were pandering/spending too much money/wasting time and should retire him. Then we took him for a lesson this week ;)

I'm pleased I gave it a go, if he wasn't comfortable either due to not coping with our local surfaces or lame he would have been a happy retiree too though.
 
The point is though, boots are why "barefoot" isn't cruel anymore!

A few years ago "barefoot" was about watching lame horse struggle their way around "transitioning" :rolleyes: which is why so many people are anti. As long as "barefoot" incorporates putting on shoes, all be it removable ones, as and when needed for horses to be comfortable, there's no reason not to support it, is there?
 
It seems to me OP that you have misdirected your post. It has nothing to do with barefoot and should be entitled stupid, ignorant, oblivious owners.
 
Horsesforever1 said:
If they are wearing boots they are not barefoot! the foot [hoof if its a horse] isnt bare if wearing a boot. It is obviously in need of protection. Hence the boot.
Or shoe. ;)
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Generally accepted definitions:

Shod horse: one who wears shoes
Unshod horse: one who doesn't wear shoes but is trimmed by the farrier
Barefoot horse: one who is generally trimmed by someone trained specifically in barefoot trimming, and generally has their diet managed to be low sugar and minerals very balanced.

Barefoot horses (sometimes) wear boots. Shod horses don't (unless they lose a shoe ;))
 
Flame_ said:
The point is though, boots are why "barefoot" isn't cruel anymore!

A few years ago "barefoot" was about watching lame horse struggle their way around "transitioning" :rolleyes: which is why so many people are anti. As long as "barefoot" incorporates putting on shoes, all be it removable ones, as and when needed for horses to be comfortable, there's no reason not to support it, is there?
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If a horse is sore and unsound out of shoes - it's sore and unsound IN shoes too -= it's the same hoof - it's simply that the shoes are allowing it to cope with a compromised hoof

That's not a bad thing, and for many horses it is the only feasible answer.
 
I'm not one of the Barefoot Taliban but I too had lots of brilliant advice on here when my vet suggested my horse should be retired or just do light hacking due to navicular. I sent him to Rockley, where at no point was he hobbling or in pain. I've had him home 4 months and just today got back from a weekend in the New Forest with him. He trotted happily along stony tracks with his shod friend, walked through a Ford in a river and we generally had a wonderful time, which wouldn't have been possible without the advice I was given on here.

I admit I had my doubts about it when I first read about it, but having met Nic and seen the way the horses going through Rockley respond to her treatment I have no more doubts. I don't do barefoot because it's supposedly natural, I do it because my horse is now sound and comfortable. It's not easy and does have ups and downs but it works for us.

It's a shame some posters feel they've been spoken to harshly by barefoot Taliban on here but I think some of that comes from the frustration of knowing that things can't change for the horse unless the owner's mindset changes and we're all pretty resistant to change,especially when it comes to an implied feeling that we aren't doing our best for our horses. I got really defensive too but ultimately I have so much to thank all the barefooters on here for. I've just had the most amazing horsey weekend ever which I would not have believed possible back in February this year. :)
 
ribbons said:
Sorry I can't quote on phone but FionaM12 after reading the linked thread said....I can see OP got very defensive and angry and I suspect this thread is the result of that anger.
Can I just point out I was the OP of the linked thread. I am NOT the OP of this thread. I have no more connection to it than the comments I have posted. Just thought I'd clear that up as the implication was this thread was my doing as a direct result of my annoyance about my own thread.
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I'm very sorry Ribbons, my mistake.
 
Here here! Fantastic post OP completely agree. Oh and to who ever made the ridiculous comment about "not everyone is a slow learner" that just shows your lack of information about the training a farrier has.. Throughout the 4 years training they still learn about trimming and different methods/how to improve - yes there is THAT MUCH to learn.. You can not learn it in a 2 day course!

I know of 5 horses so far (since June 2011) that have been shot due to people who have come and trimmed them claiming to know how to make them comfortable and able to manage shoeless.. Two had severe abcesses, two with severe laminitis - stress/pain laminitis and one where the pedal bone actually sunk and the horse was crippled - all because they wanted to go barefoot and it was just the "footy process".

I'm sorry I have no issue with horses not having shoes - trust me my OH's back would last a lot longer if he only trimmed horses! By all means give it ago but two things- for gods sake consider the horses welfare - why let it go hopping lame for 6 months whilst its going through the process, it's neither fair or kind. Two; get someone who's had 4 years training and has a recognised qualification, you may not believe it but farriers shed a lot of blood, swet and tears whilst they train - it's bloody hard and they deserve more credit.
 
my horse has not been hopping lame for the last 6 months and there is no reason it would need to be..

I agree with previous posters that the OP (and you with the 5 PTS cases) is thinking of bad owners rather than those who barefoot.

Who is dissing farriers? Mine is still on side (and shoes the other horse) but actually recommended 2 barefoot trimmers to me.. one who has trained (for more than 2 days) and one who hasn't. He is also very interested in our paddock paradise system (as is the dentist ;) ) and what I am now feeding him.
 
SpottyTB can you please explain the mechanism whereby taking the shoes off can result in a weakening of the laminae which allows the pedal bone to sink?

Having dissected a foot and understanding how laminar attachment works, it does not make sense to me that anyone could cause a sinker by removing shoes. In fact a foot peripherally loaded onto a shoe would normally be under far more pressure to sink than any barefoot foot, which will usually have the frog in contact with the floor and limit sinking even if the laminae are weak.
 
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SpottyTB said:
Two; get someone who's had 4 years training and has a recognised qualification, you may not believe it but farriers shed a lot of blood, swet and tears whilst they train - it's bloody hard and they deserve more credit.
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But SPottyTB, the four years training includes nothing about how to manage really hardworking barefoot horses unless the Master that the apprentice is training with has some on his books. This is clear from the published syllabus and from number of farriers who trim horses by removing large chunks of frog and often taking sole callous that is absolutely essential to a barefoot horse.

Your man may not, and that's fantastic, but far too many do.
 
Here here! Fantastic post OP completely agree. Oh and to who ever made the ridiculous comment about "not everyone is a slow learner" that just shows your lack of information about the training a farrier has.. Throughout the 4 years training they still learn about trimming and different methods/how to improve - yes there is THAT MUCH to learn.. You can not learn it in a 2 day course!
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Here we go again - the same old crap trotted out. Where can you do a 2 day course? Please tell me? Point me to the web site and I may take it. Sounds a hell of a lot easier than the full year the UKNHCP require - feck I've even got to attend courses on saddling and nutrition and physiotherapy with them - that can't be right can it?

Spare me the 2 day argument. It's old and worn and doesn't seriously stand up as credible any more.

(ignore that bloody angle grinder woman - she's an anomaly best not mentioned)

Ask yourself SpottyTB - why are SOME (not all) people abandoning farriers? Because they are seeing their horses fail to improve, get progressively more unsound, get put down.

Ok so there are bad trimmers too. No argument there.

There are great farriers and great trimmers out there. I met both of them this last week,

Back to my original post which is "The horse owner has to take responsibility......"
 
cptrayes said:
But SPottyTB, the four years training includes nothing about how to manage really hardworking barefoot horses unless the Master that the apprentice is training with has some on his books. This is clear from the published syllabus and from number of farriers who trim horses by removing large chunks of frog and often taking sole callous that is absolutely essential to a barefoot horse.

Your man may not, and that's fantastic, but far too many do.
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Oh cptrayes - i said my little piece and now i have nothing to add i'm afraid - plus i can't answer your question's.. however i will tell you briefly about a seminar he went to, it was about horses in Australia going barefoot.. basically they are wild, they have wild terrain (none of how they live is managed) they travel hundreds of miles and basically a chap (vet) follows them usually in a helicopter and tracks down there progress. now the point of the seminar was to say that these horses do cope with the hundreds of miles on stoney tracks - without shoes HOWEVER a vast majority went lame/came down because the foot was SO worn it crippled them..

(the research showed/proved that even those in the WILD, because of the conditions their in caused problems - such as mechanical laminitis and the foot that predisposed to this condition the most was the foot that looked as if it had been trimmed to go barefoot - but obviously it hadn't as these are wild horses and in the wild these were the horses with the shortest life span. The whole point of the seminar was to get across that "just because it's natural doesn't mean it's right". The other thing to consider if also, where has the research been done for barefoot horses? I believe the vast majority of it was done in America - as barefoot trimming is an american invented trend - my OH is in regular contact with an American farrier (because like i said above/below he is interested in discussion) who said the environmental condition's (weather) cannot be compared to the environmental condition's of the UK. In America he can get up to 4 months of dry which is perfect for barefoot feet where as we're lucky if we get 4 bloody days (que abscesses).

Like i said though, i said my piece - it's the way i see it but i can't change what you and everyone else decides to do, that is your choice :). My OH is always up for discussion about keeping a horse without shoes.. in fact my TB x goes without on the back and actually he can get her to go without them all round - but i choice to have her shod in front because of the jumping we do.. She has reasonably good feet and never goes "footy" and he just maintains her feet by doing a lovely normal bog standard working trim..

I think the way forward for everyone is to come TOGETHER and discuss training and education so everyone can be happy and also invest money in doing some research into horses going barefoot in this country.. :) .
 
cptrayes said:
SpottyTB can you please explain the mechanism whereby taking the shoes off can result in a weakening of the laminae which allows the pedal bone to sink?

Having dissected a foot and understanding how laminar attachment works, it does not make sense to me that anyone could cause a sinker by removing shoes. In fact a foot peripherally loaded onto a shoe would normally be under far more pressure to sink than any barefoot foot, which will usually have the frog in contact with the floor and limit sinking even if the laminae are weak.
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Well apparently (:rolleyes::D) the hoof wall at the toe was rolled to bare weight on the sole to create a callus. The sole cannot bare weight without the hoof wall - this was the cause of the sinker. Basically all they know is that the pedal bone dropped because it was trimmed to hard and in the wrong way - there's a veterinary report on this saying exactly the same and this is the reason he put the poor soul down because his pedal bone sank.. because of the way it had been trimmed (by a barefoot trimmer).

:cool:
 
Wait so Barefoot with a BT is cruel. But is it ok if your farrier suggests that bare is the way to go? Because he also believes in the benefits and feels every horse should get a break once at least once a year?

I've been through 2 jerk Farriers. 1st one liked to trim my young horses and broodmares for length of time. Meaning the shorter the better. Gee wonder why mine have been in shoes since 2. When I'd ask questions, nicely, so I could learn, I'd get handed the rasp. But since I didn't know any better I gave him his God like status. The final straw came when he crippled my heavily pregnant broodmare with a trim. I kept her wrapped for a month and I cried. Had to get the vet out. I admit that once she grew some foot, I had new blacksmith came out and put pads on her with shoes. This guy was alright but I had some concerns the way the feet were going. It's long story. So when my mare went into jumper training I just had the regular farrier of that stable do her feet. Big changes for the better. He was also happy to talk with vets, listen to the owner and to explain why and how things were happening. He is my current farrier. Also the one who suggested we go bare. I trust that he has my horses best interests at heart. So I'm not looking for a trimmer. I don't want to find someone new to trust.

But if you want to throw all trimmers under the bus, you might want to throw the highly trained Farriers there too that get annoyed you want to take horses out of shoes. Because they also aren't doing their job correctly. If they tell you there is no benifit to getting out of shoes for a bit I'd be suspect.

And what's with the abcess thing? I'm not having issues. Before shoes came off I had one get a puncture. That's nearly grown out now. Funny thing about that is that a shoe doesn't protect the sole.

So is it bare people that annoy you because they use trimmers. Do you feel Farriers who recommend bare are useless as well?

Terri
 
Slightly hijacking thread! I have turned my horse out for the winter so see if he comes right next year.

He will be on all grass, no concrete, stones etc and I want his shoes off to give his feet a rest. Only has 3 on as lost one in field.

Best way to go about it? All off at once? Just backs off to start? When in ridden work if he ever lost a front shoe I wouldn't ride him as he was very uncomfortable with it.
 
copperpot Id look at getting the diet right before taking shoes off. Low sugar/starch and hi fibre. My girl does well on linseed mixed in fast fibre. Grass is very high in sugar but shouldnt be too much of a problem for you if you arent actually working your horse and the grass looses alot over the winter anyway. Is your horse comfortable on grass when its lost a shoe because if it is then Id be inclined to do all four at once. If its not then just do backs first. Im not the most knowledgable barefooter, oberon is the one to speak to and cptrayes. Maybe set up your own thread or read back through some barefoot threads on here so you can get as clued up as poss.
 
Well more of the usual .
You see sore horses BF you see sore horses shod the longer I have horses BF the less I am interested in the posts on here.
I have no interest in letting a farrier trim my horses feet as it was farriers that drove me to take the shoes off. There are great trimmers great farriers and lots of the other sort of each
The length of farriers training does not stop them laming horses by the skip load they have a problem with the training I see badly shod horses everywhere they need to address it.
The trimming organiseations need to get everything put on a good footing .
I have shod and unshod horses and while getting horses genuinely working hard BF is not a doddle it can be done and the visible differences in their heels and digital cushions is enough for me to work at getting it right.
I have a TB I have had him a year last August he's six and was heading for all those TB issues he has had his shoes off since April the difference is remarkable he's going to completly different shaped feet .
He may go on to be shod again particularly if he goes to a pro but he will feel the benefits of the time I have spent on this ever .
If shod horses feet must have a break ever year this was the old way and we have got out of it at our peril .
The diet that helps BF horses is good for all horse
And boots have made giving horses a break from shoeing much easier.
The senestive feet that BF horses get on grass or eating sugary foods is happening to all horses you just can't see it that's a good lesson to learn and good gut health is important to all horses too.
There should not be all this yelling over the fence the the other camp I was in the horses need shoes camp until curiousity lead me to try BF to see what happened.
 
The fact that I had my horse shoed was once used here as evidence that I mistreat my horse. It's a kind of bullying really. I think some horses do absolutely fine barefoot and it's a good option for them. But it does worry me that it's a cheaper option and so may be used to save money in horses that it doesn't suit.

My horse came to me with a very sore mouth and slightly sore front feet barefoot. She was literally going "ouch, ouch, ouch" across the stony bits in the yard. I'm on a mostly private yard and the majority of the horses there are barefoot and trimmed by our farrier. He told me mine needed shoes.

I would have left her barefoot if she had been ok, but no way would I use a trimmer. If the farrier didn't do it, I'd find another farrier. I also got the vet to do her teeth. Farriers and the vetinary profession we're created and regulated to stop the sort of terrible cruelty that happened when some local bloke used to shoe and treat his own and other people's animals.

Paula
 
SpottyTB said:
I believe the vast majority of it was done in America - as barefoot trimming is an american invented trend - my OH is in regular contact with an American farrier (because like i said above/below he is interested in discussion) who said the environmental condition's (weather) cannot be compared to the environmental condition's of the UK. In America he can get up to 4 months of dry which is perfect for barefoot feet where as we're lucky if we get 4 bloody days (que abscesses).
.
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America is a huge place, many parts of which have weather much wetter than ours. It is nonsense to say that horses in this country cannot work barefoot, there are thousands of horses doing it.
 
A cheaper option? Not necessarily.
I never quite see the point of threads like this. They seem just set up to try to make people argue with each other. Bit like Parelli threads really.
 
My friend insisted on keeping her mare barefoot because "it's was natural" the poor horse tip toed about the place constantly and always seemed to have white line disease , after a number of years of me going on at her she put shoes on it, horse is perfectly happy now and has not had white line disease in over 12 months. Yes ok so the odd little kids pony ok barefoot but a proper horse in work expected to hack out etc along roads needs shoes and I think the way her horse was proved it. To me anyway.
 
Goldenstar said:
Well more of the usual .
You see sore horses BF you see sore horses shod the longer I have horses BF the less I am interested in the posts on here.
I have no interest in letting a farrier trim my horses feet as it was farriers that drove me to take the shoes off. There are great trimmers great farriers and lots of the other sort of each
The length of farriers training does not stop them laming horses by the skip load they have a problem with the training I see badly shod horses everywhere they need to address it.
The trimming organiseations need to get everything put on a good footing .
I have shod and unshod horses and while getting horses genuinely working hard BF is not a doddle it can be done and the visible differences in their heels and digital cushions is enough for me to work at getting it right.
I have a TB I have had him a year last August he's six and was heading for all those TB issues he has had his shoes off since April the difference is remarkable he's going to completly different shaped feet .
He may go on to be shod again particularly if he goes to a pro but he will feel the benefits of the time I have spent on this ever .
If shod horses feet must have a break ever year this was the old way and we have got out of it at our peril .
The diet that helps BF horses is good for all horse
And boots have made giving horses a break from shoeing much easier.
The senestive feet that BF horses get on grass or eating sugary foods is happening to all horses you just can't see it that's a good lesson to learn and good gut health is important to all horses too.
There should not be all this yelling over the fence the the other camp I was in the horses need shoes camp until curiousity lead me to try BF to see what happened.
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I agree with this, time out of shoes was always seen as a way to improve hoof health, nowadays we want our horses performing 365 days a year, and I do think that there is a price for that. My neighbours horses were continually shod for years, I've never seen such contracted feet.

I think it's a shame that the 'barefoot taliban' are getting bashed for being evangelical, if you've seen a horse saved from deaths door through changing diet and removing shoes it must be difficult not to get frustrated when you see horses who may benefit not being given the chance. You just have to look at the work done by Rockley to see the benefits.

Of course there are bad trimmers out there, same as there are bad farriers, as owners we need to use our own judgement as to what is improving our horses and what is harming. As for people who shoe their horse being told that they are harming it, from what I've seen most of the barefoot advocates recommend shoeing if it is in the horses best interests.

I removed the shoes from my mare about 10/12 years ago after being in heartbars. She has never had an abscess in that time and when the vet was last called he was impressed with how good her feet are and I believe he now works alongside a barefoot trimmer. She never needs trimming as the work done keeps them right.

I personally would use a dentist who has trained in equine dentistry rather than a vet who may not have done too. ;)
 
SpottyTB said:
Well apparently (:rolleyes::D) the hoof wall at the toe was rolled to bare weight on the sole to create a callus. The sole cannot bare weight without the hoof wall - this was the cause of the sinker. Basically all they know is that the pedal bone dropped because it was trimmed to hard and in the wrong way - there's a veterinary report on this saying exactly the same and this is the reason he put the poor soul down because his pedal bone sank.. because of the way it had been trimmed (by a barefoot trimmer).

:cool:
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The sole can, and does. bear weight without the hoof wall in many barefoot horses with a good toe callous.

What I think you mean is that because the wall was taken above the line of the sole at the toe, this allowed a horse which was already severely laminitic to rotate?
 
Ludoctro I can't quote because I'm on my phone but your statement about only a child's pony being able to go barefoot is completely wrong. My horse is a very heavyweight cob doing miles and miles of roadwork a week. He's more comfortable and free moving than he's been in at least a year because of this change. In my lad's time at Rockley I saw every single horse who passed through there improve without discomfort or pain inflicted on it and I'm still in touch with many of their owners so know that they're continuing to do well, as is my horse.

We're all trained to think that by listening to the vet and the Farrier we are doing our best for our horses, which is what we all want, but what if, through lack of research and knowledge our wonderful vet and Farrier doesn't know how barefoot can work? My vet is an amazing vet, but he's limited by his training, which tells him a navicular horse needs wedges and shoes. He was against me trying Rockley and barefoot and highly sceptical of Nic, which I don't blame him for since until he spoke to her himself he didn't know what she knew about horses hooves. Ultimately he believed I'd have to reshoe my boy to ride on the roads and I haven't needed to yet. What's interesting is how everyone I ride with is surprised at how he manages stony tracks and difficult ground, as well as how he doesn't slip or slide on the roads.

We're all trained to believe horses can't work without shoes but that's not true and you can't be surprised that the BT are passionate about changing that.
 
touchstone said:
I agree with this, time out of shoes was always seen as a way to improve hoof health, nowadays we want our horses performing 365 days a year, and I do think that there is a price for that. My neighbours horses were continually shod for years, I've never seen such contracted feet.

I think it's a shame that the 'barefoot taliban' are getting bashed for being evangelical, if you've seen a horse saved from deaths door through changing diet and removing shoes it must be difficult not to get frustrated when you see horses who may benefit not being given the chance. You just have to look at the work done by Rockley to see the benefits.

Of course there are bad trimmers out there, same as there are bad farriers, as owners we need to use our own judgement as to what is improving our horses and what is harming. As for people who shoe their horse being told that they are harming it, from what I've seen most of the barefoot advocates recommend shoeing if it is in the horses best interests.

I removed the shoes from my mare about 10/12 years ago after being in heartbars. She has never had an abscess in that time and when the vet was last called he was impressed with how good her feet are and I believe he now works alongside a barefoot trimmer. She never needs trimming as the work done keeps them right.

I personally would use a dentist who has trained in equine dentistry rathere than a vet who may not have done too. ;)
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I aggree that the owners need to learn to take responsiblity for their horses health and particularly feet it's much to easy when a horse is shod to book the appointment write the chq and sail until something goes wrong.
It's unfair to blame farriers for all shoeing issues when they are shoeing horses on on suitable diets or shod without break.
However I disaggree with you on EDT after one bad experiance and one disaster that left the horse impaired for ever with EDT no one but a dentistry trained vet I trust is going near my horses mouth.
 
Well I think if you can't find the info you need on the internet to successfully take your horse barefoot if you want, or shod properly if you want then... you ARE stupid :D
 
Mine are not in hard enough work to justify shoes. They are completely sound on everything except sharp stones, where they are a bit careful. I don't see shoes making any difference to sharp stones and I don't ride on sharp stones. No special diet although I do notice a difference if on lush grass rather than short grass. Will be trying micronised linseed for one with mud fever. None of the ponies I rode as a child were shod.

Don't see why it has to be a big argument. Do what you like for your horse but don't mistreat it.
 
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