Pictures Barefoot experts please! Horse always sore after trim

[Hormonal Filly]

I’m copying this and sharing this for a friend posted asking for advice, because she is not sure what to do. She desperately wants to keep her horses barefoot.

Any thoughts appreciated!

Photos the day after a trim

Hi, long post warning! I’m looking for advice re my horse’s hooves; will try to cut a long story short. He is an ex racer which I have had for just over a year straight off the track. Sound at the time of purchasing. Prior to buying him I’d recently changed to a new farrier with my other horse, the farrier is pro barefoot but will also shoe as required. When my Farrier re-shod the thoroughbred from the first time he went very lame, but I was reassured that this was because we were putting his feet in the right place and he had thin soles. And also the change from racing plates to normal shoes. He was in visible discomfort when the shoes were being nailed in but I thought I had to trust this process for long term soundness. He pretty much wasn’t ridden since I bought him for the first 9 months as he was so foot sore that I turned him away. Also worth mentioning that I had the vet to him who did full lameness work up and took x rays of the hooves, which had good balance but thin soles, vet said just very foot sore and mentioned at the time that his toes had been trimmed back a lot. He was losing shoes in the field when turned away which caused an abscess, so I decided to keep them off and try barefoot as he was so lame for the first couple of weeks after having shoes anyway.
Fast forward to now he is still barefoot (about 8 months total barefoot) but every time he is trimmed he is sore for probably 1 - 2 weeks, his hooves go hot to touch with pulses and I generally need to bute him after a trim. Then he gradually gets more comfortable the more time goes on through the trimming cycle and can be hacked out without the boots, then once he is re trimmed he is back to square one. I asked my Farrier if we could leave a bit more toe on because after they’ve grown out a bit my horse is sound and comfortable, so in my mind it makes sense to leave a bit more foot on, but he said this is not the correct way to do it and that I’d be causing more problems down the line. My other horse is native and has not been too footy following trims, he definitely feels his feet after but I could still take him for a hack/light work; however after this recent trim he is also very sore which is now further leading me to question exactly what’s going on but I’m just not knowledgable enough to tell if everything is the way it should be. I am aware from these pages that the horses should not be sore after a trim. I’m trying not to sound negative but am just looking for some different qualified opinions so that I know best how to help my horse. So I’m looking for advice on these pictures of what you think of my tb’s hooves please.

Worth noting:
- lives out, has hay in field, not a lot of grass (especially with the dry weather!)
- fed thunderbrooks chaff healthy herbal, speedy beet, science supplements balancer and linseed.
- Has been scoped for ulcers
- Wears scoot boots for riding and have used hoof armor to help
- trimmed every 6 weeks
- Does in hand and ridden core conditioning work

Thanks

 

[Hormonal Filly]

 

[PurpleSpots]

Has the horse had recent foot x-rays?

More to comment on, but while the heels are being left with some depth the toes and walls look to be being taken right down which could artificially be creating the effect of pedal bone rotation. That coupled with thin soles which don't look to be being set up to thicken up. The bars also look to not be being trimmed to ideal points for improvement. I'd not approach these feet by trimming like this, but x-rays could possibly be the best place to start right now, even just a simple lateral view of each foot could help.

 

[millitiger]

Change trimmer/farrier.
And get some x-rays to help guide them.

Regardless of the fact the angles in those feet look pretty horrid, no professional should be comfortable with a horse needing Bute and being sore for 2 weeks after every trim.
Definitely not over a 9+ month period.

It also does the horse's feet and body no good at all if they aren't comfortable moving for 3 weeks out of 4. The feet won't improve if the horse isn't moving and the horse won't move with sore feet. Let alone the secondary soreness in musculature throughout the body from sore feet

 

[maya2008]

If it helps, I have a NF mare who was always footy after a trim. Same farrier did all my others and they were fine. Did all my friend’s horses - fine. Definitely not the farrier in our case. I even got the vet to check and she said angles etc good, nothing she could see.

While we used him, the best solution I found was to have her trimmed more often and to ask him not to pare away too much sole.

Eventually our farrier retired and we plodded on through the winter just tidying up the hooves as they didn’t grow that much. By spring she had been continuously comfortable for many months. Her hooves are not perfect in shape but are pretty close and we do not trim much from beneath at all now. No discomfort from trims, no footiness, all good.

Nothing else changed. We just stopped trying to make her hooves the absolute perfect shape and left the underside alone as much as possible.

So I would say get someone good and then see what happens. Those feet don’t look great though so shouldn’t be hard to get an improvement!

 

[ester]

they're flat as a flat thing so I'm not surprised, I'd be getting a different pro on board, they need to be up for trying a different way if it's not currently working.


I was going to originally reply that if you touched F's bars he would be sore for a week, but that was before I saw how flat they were (see previous point, we worked out that was happening and just never trimmed bars and let them shed on their own and had no issues).

Is she quite agressively treating the central sulci?

 

[ester]

Also, can she test her grazing? I'd maybe be aiming for more bespoke mineral balancing at this stage.

and agree with MT re the sore body thing, the one thing I would have done differently was get more body work while transitioning.

 

[ester]

If it helps, I have a NF mare who was always footy after a trim. Same farrier did all my others and they were fine. Did all my friend’s horses - fine. Definitely not the farrier in our case. I even got the vet to check and she said angles etc good, nothing she could see.

While we used him, the best solution I found was to have her trimmed more often and to ask him not to pare away too much sole.

Eventually our farrier retired and we plodded on through the winter just tidying up the hooves as they didn’t grow that much. By spring she had been continuously comfortable for many months. Her hooves are not perfect in shape but are pretty close and we do not trim much from beneath at all now. No discomfort from trims, no footiness, all good.

Nothing else changed. We just stopped trying to make her hooves the absolute perfect shape and left the underside alone as much as possible.

I mean if you're paring sole off an unshod horse that's often an issue.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Same farrier did all my others and they were fine.

Several other he trims are sore, not just this horse. The same friend has a native who is also very sore after his trim.

Another horse is on a different yard, been barefoot her entire life and trimmed by the same person on the weekend and she is on bute she is so sore.

 

[ester]

jeez

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Has the horse had recent foot x-rays?

Not for 7/8 months. When xrayed then the vet said they had good balance but thin soles.

 

[maya2008]

Several other he trims are sore, not just this horse. The same friend has a native who is also very sore after his trim.

Another horse is on a different yard, been barefoot her entire life and trimmed by the same person on the weekend and she is on bute she is so sore.

I think you have kind of answered your own question!

Ask around on Facebook for farrier recommendations (anonymously if needed) and try someone else!

 

[claret09]

personally i would get another farrier and get them to put shoes on to help support feet

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I think you have kind of answered your own question!

Ask around on Facebook for farrier recommendations (anonymously if needed) and try someone else!

I agree, thing is this farrier trims several horses on the yard (which also go sore after a trim) and one of them recently had foot X-rays which showed perfect foot balance. Another gelding was also trimmed by him, went to a vet hospital for X-rays inc feet and they said the same. Angles etc perfect.
It’s why so many stick with him I think..

It’s also extremely difficult to get a decent barefoot trimmer/farrier in the arena. There are several poor farriers and several of us have had bad experiences with other farriers. Two well known podiatrists won’t travel to South Gloucestershire and only go as far up as Somerset.

 

[maya2008]

Can they get on the waiting list for whichever farrier trims the other horses on that yard?

 

[millitiger]

I wouldn't ignore a sore horse just because the angles look good on x-ray.

Technically people would say my horse should have his heels pulled back and angles could be improved.
In reality trying to force that made him very sore and every trim pushed his progress back 10 steps.

So we now trim to what he's comfortable with.
Doing this, he has gone from needing boots for turnout and only being ridden on a surface to now, barefoot on all surfaces including road hacking, 10 mile all terrain fun rides and back out eventing.
I can't remember the last time he wore his boots!

 

[ester]

I agree, thing is this farrier trims several horses on the yard (which also go sore after a trim) and one of them recently had foot X-rays which showed perfect foot balance. Another gelding was also trimmed by him, went to a vet hospital for X-rays inc feet and they said the same. Angles etc perfect.
It’s why so many stick with him I think..

It’s also extremely difficult to get a decent barefoot trimmer/farrier in the arena. There are several poor farriers and several of us have had bad experiences with other farriers. Two well known podiatrists won’t travel to South Gloucestershire and only go as far up as Somerset.

where abouts is she?

If it were this farrier or nothing I'd go with nothing and learn how to do them myself a bit.

 

[paddy555]

I would suggest that for this particular horse the owner gets a rasp, could be something like a radius rasp to start with if they won't use a proper one.
Then give the horse couple of weeks, start riding BF again, use boots when necessary and then let the horse go onto 'self trimming" based on the riding. You can vary the surface to either trim or preserve hoof as appropriate. Then simply keep the feet well rounded and smooth with whatever rasp.
I dont think they will be a any worse off and the horse may become sound all the time. That will give them several weeks to find some other trimmer.

It is perfectly possible for the horse to manage self trimming. My first barefoot riding horse managed for 31 years self trimming. It must be better than being sore after each trim.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Can they get on the waiting list for whichever farrier trims the other horses on that yard?

Several farriers trim other horses there, must be about 5-6+ different farriers. I’d say 80% are shod. Most of those horses are shod badly, I wouldn’t choose any of the farriers to trim/shoe mine. It seems it’s gold dust to find a good one.

This one farrier trims the majority of the barefoot horses on the yard.. it’s just strange how most of them usually go footsore after a trim.

where abouts is she?

If it were this farrier or nothing I'd go with nothing and learn how to do them myself a bit.

South Gloucestershire, Yate area

 

[paddy555]

This one farrier trims the majority of the barefoot horses on the yard.. it’s just strange how most of them usually go footsore after a trim.

at the risk of asking the obvious don't they tell him he is making their horses sore and ask him why and to make sure he leaves them rideable and sound.

 

[daffy44]

Change the farrier.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

at the risk of asking the obvious don't they tell him he is making their horses sore and ask him why and to make sure he leaves them rideable and sound.

Yes, she has been honest and told him. Asked him to leave some foot on. He said this is not the correct way to do it and that she’d be causing more problems down the line.

 

[ester]

I

Several farriers trim other horses there, must be about 5-6+ different farriers. I’d say 80% are shod. Most of those horses are shod badly, I wouldn’t choose any of the farriers to trim/shoe mine. It seems it’s gold dust to find a good one.

This one farrier trims the majority of the barefoot horses on the yard.. it’s just strange how most of them usually go footsore after a trim.


South Gloucestershire, Yate area

I'll pm you

 

[FieldOrnaments]

I agree, thing is this farrier trims several horses on the yard (which also go sore after a trim) and one of them recently had foot X-rays which showed perfect foot balance. Another gelding was also trimmed by him, went to a vet hospital for X-rays inc feet and they said the same. Angles etc perfect.
It’s why so many stick with him I think..

It’s also extremely difficult to get a decent barefoot trimmer/farrier in the arena. There are several poor farriers and several of us have had bad experiences with other farriers. Two well known podiatrists won’t travel to South Gloucestershire and only go as far up as Somerset.

I might mangle my words here so bear with and only commenting v tentatively as feet very not my area....But just because it's right for a textbook diagram and visually 'perfect' doesn't mean it's right for the individual horse. Nature (and the horse/s in question) certainly haven't read the textbook and it's clearly not perfect if the animals are sore. There's a range of normalcy ofc but presumably some natural variation in that so for this particular horse something less visually perfect might be what the foot 'wants' to be iyswim. The horses biology doesn't care what the farrier thinks is the correct way to do it.


Basically she needs to change farrier tho

 

[dottylottie]

i don’t know enough about feet to comment on the photos, but i’d be absolutely changing farrier! common denominator in both horses are sore

 

[Arzada]

This one farrier trims the majority of the barefoot horses on the yard.. it’s just strange how most of them usually go footsore after a trim

It's not at all strange when there is a known common denominator. What is strange is that clients stay with this farrier choosing 'perfect' foot angles over their horse's comfort.

thing is this farrier trims several horses on the yard (which also go sore after a trim) and one of them recently had foot X-rays which showed perfect foot balance. Another gelding was also trimmed by him, went to a vet hospital for X-rays inc feet and they said the same. Angles etc perfect.
It’s why so many stick with him I think..

I might, when I was less knowledgeable, have let him come a second time but he wouldn't have come a third time

 

[Caol Ila]

Horse shouldn't be sore after a trim.

I had an equine podiatrist do my two, and he did a friend's barefoot horse as well, and all three were footy afterwards. None had any problems at all after a trim before (or since, using my preferred farrier). The guy spent like an hour with each horse, took photos, watched them move, but nope.

 

[SpeedyPony]

Definitely shouldn't be lame/sore after a trim. Since the current farrier doesn't seem open to discussion (and is causing the problem in multiple horses!) I'd say the only options are to change farrier or for the owner to trim them, if they have the skills/tools.
I've had mine unshod at various times and if they haven't grown enough hoof to warrant trimming (as is sometimes the case when in work) the farrier will just bevel the hoof wall to reduce chipping and leave everything else alone.

 

[Jellymoon]

The thought of changing farrier is a nightmare, so I get the reluctance. I have been in that situation before but thankfully the farrier retired so I was able to get a new one without having a difficult conversation.

Horses should NOT be sore after a trim. He’s taking too much off.

I have two barefoot and one shod. My farrier doesn’t do that much with the barefoot ones, he checks them over every 6 wks when he comes to shoe the other one, sometimes take a little bit off here and there if necessary and smooths round the outside to help prevent splitting. He never takes anything off the sole, ever. One of them is flat footed and doesn’t grow much sole anyway, the other has naturally concave feet and has thick soles which are allowed to shed themselves.

Time to have the courage to be disliked for the sake of the horses - unreal that so many are sore for 1-2 wks, and are they still ridden? Poor things.

In this situation, I would put hoof boots on for a few weeks (even in field) until he’s walking around sound, and then leave the feet well alone to grow out, for at least 2 months, and in this time do a load of research on which farrier is best, or if there isn’t a decent one, then a barefoot trimmer/podiatrist.

 

[paddy555]

Yes, she has been honest and told him. Asked him to leave some foot on. He said this is not the correct way to do it and that she’d be causing more problems down the line.

not good enough. she needs to press home the point and ask precisely what he is doing to leave the horse sore. It may cause more problems down the line but if it is continually sore after trimming it is going to be affected through it's body so down the line probably won't have much relevance.

the correct way to do it is to adapt your trim to the particular horse to produce not only a correct foot but also a horse who walks away as sound ( or even better) than when you start.

presumably this is a qualified farrier ie someone who also shoes? if so then he seems to be trying to put a barefoot trim on the foot (from what I can see) and I wonder what he is basing that on ie. has he had training in producing BF riding horses.
A trimmer or farrier may leave the odd horse sore but not several.

Just checking this is not a barefoot trimmer.

she doesn't need to be honest and tell him she needs to tell him not to do it again otherwise I'm afraid it is P45 time for the horses' sake.

if it is happening to several horses then club together and get an out of area trimmer out. If there is a day's work and they pay travel expenses that should be possible.