"Barefoot For Navicular" - PHOTOS - what do you think of these feet?

viola

viola

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I've posted on/off about my horse's navicular problems and I could probably write a never ending post again but having read a few threads below I would love to hear from those who succeeded in rehabbing their navicular horses...What do you think about these feet?

August 2009 (sound)

2249320230095301171ddRRzG_ph.jpg


21st September 2009 (Lame)

2414927850095301171rKhIRy_ph.jpg


27th March 2010 (Lame - diagnosed navicualar/changes to navicular bone on x-rays)

2833668900095301171TsLuRU_ph.jpg


16th April 2010 (Egg bar shoes - Lame)

2777340890095301171pOWYaJ_ph.jpg


8th August 2010 (Tildren,Navilox,Bursea Injections, Told to ride in walk - still LAME)



Not the best photos but my question is: is it possible that he "needed" his horrendous looking feet (see first photo) to stay sound? Did the farrier try to make him "too good and too even" which in turn stopped him from re-balancing whatever problems he had in the feet? [He is rising 7].
 
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21st September 2009 (Lame)

21stSeptember2009.jpg


27th March 2010 (Lame - diagnosed navicualar/changes to navicular bone on x-rays)

sideview27thMarch2010.jpg


16th April 2010 (Egg bar shoes - Lame)

16thApril2010.jpg


NOW (feet look similar to above, bit shorter at the toe) September 2010 (Tildren,Navilox,Bursea Injections, Told to ride in walk for a bit but getting lamer so only turn out) - still lame.
 
I suspect there is a lot more going on here than just 'navicular'.

It is both very difficult and inadviseable to 'diagnose by photo' but there are a couple of fairly obvious things that can be seen from these.

It would appear that your horse's feet are scooting forward (usually a diet related thing) and the trim is trying to address this by heavily dressing the front (not usually a good idea).

There are also some hefty event lines which also point to some sort of metabolic disturbance (usually but not always dietary).

There are no solar views and in any case shoes mask a lot but it would be interesting to see the bottom of the foot sans shoe. Check for white line stretch and the quality of the back of the foot.

How is the digitial cushion?

As a starter for ten I'd review diet first.
 
I think it's very difficult to tell much from pix, I think you'd need to look at x-rays to get a good idea of what's going on. Trouble with 'navicular' is that it tends to be used as a generic term for what's pretty much heel pain originating in the navicular area. We've had a couple of cases on our yard where the x rays have showed a flat palmer angle, so the pedal bone doesn't point slightly downward, instead it is flat. This has the effect of increasing the 'pulley effect' of the tendons around the navicular bone so there is pressure leading to heel pain, the horse starts to 'tippy toe' instead of landing heel-first to try to be more comfortable (sometimes this seems to make the horse shuffle a bit, they don't seem to necessarily be lame) but then the lack of stimulation to the heel means it ends up weak, the structure is poor, the support to the navicular area deteriorates and the horse ends up lame. Egg bars will support the heel and may make the horse more comfortable but unless the underlying cause is addressed, they may just be treating the symptom. The interesting thing about both these horses was that the hoof-pastern axis looked OK, but by shoeing slavishly to this the farrier was actually throwing the hoof out of balance. Hoof-pastern axis ain't everything!

You've tried remedial farriery and it doesn't sound like it's working out. Have you considered trying to rehab him barefoot? My old horse had classic long toe/collapsed heel navicular feet, he wasn't lame but he was pointing when he stood, was reluctant to perform on hard ground, was throwing in uncharacteristic stops when he jumped and was stumbling a lot - all classic symptoms of a problem brewing. It was amazing, as soon as his shoes came off he stopped stumbling completely. I was :eek: I did a lot of hand-walking in solemate pads and his heels and toes started to come back, within 6 months he had grown a whole new foot which was nothing like the old one. He was jumping happily even on hard going (he used to pee off with me on the xc course at the yard and take me over jumps!), and he started working from behind and carrying himself in a way that he never did when he was shod.

If you look at hoofrehab.com there is stuff about barefoot rehab of navicular horses which might be interesting.
 
These look like typical farrier induced Navic Syndrome - heels far too long and toes dumped. As he is lame, take the opportunity to get the shoes off and have a qualified trimmer advise you, you have nothing to loose and your horse has everything to gain.
 
I hate trying to offer advice from pictures like these. When taking (and presenting) pictures of horses feet for critisism they should always be taken level with the ground (camera lined up with the foot without any angling (so placing the camera on the ground and lying down is a good idea)) you also want the hoof right in the middle of the shot and much closer. A solar view should accompany the pictures as well as a picture of the pair form each side and from the front. lesson over.

Actually the heels seem to be improving and there is quite a difference between March and Aprils pictures. The main thing that stands out is that the toe is still too long and the HPA (hoof pastern axis) is broken back. If your horse has any pain in any section of the foot an extended breakover is only going to make it worse.
 
intouch said:
These look like typical farrier induced Navic Syndrome - heels far too long and toes dumped. As he is lame, take the opportunity to get the shoes off and have a qualified trimmer advise you, you have nothing to loose and your horse has everything to gain.
Click to expand...

Oh yes, the well known and scientifically proven "farrier-induced" version. :rolleyes:
 
Farrierlover said:
Oh yes, the well known and scientifically proven "farrier-induced" version. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Lol - agreed. It's not the farrier that induces navicular it's the shoes!

Agree with the others, making any definitive conclusions just by photographs is impossible but I would pick up everything Lucy pointed out - very obvious event lines, long toes, underun heels... 99 times out of 100 it starts with diet, poor shoeing (or just shoeing in general but lets not get into that argument again!) and everything starts to go wrong. I would take the shoes off asap, find yourself a qualified, professional, insured trimmer (if you let us know whereabouts in the country you are I am sure we could recommend someone) and take things from there. One thing is for sure, shoeing/drug treatment has not helped your horse and you've got nothing to lose from trying him barefoot. You only have to read many of the threads in here to see it has worked for many many horses in similar situations to yours.
 
It would appear that your horse's feet are scooting forward (usually a diet related thing) and the trim is trying to address this by heavily dressing the front (not usually a good idea).

There are also some hefty event lines which also point to some sort of metabolic disturbance (usually but not always dietary).
Click to expand...

What Lucy said!

They'd be much better without the shoes you know :-) It's them that are keeping the situation the way it is.
 
Thank you for all the replies, I have taken more hopefully better photos today and will post in a moment.
The question basically is - do we try barefoot (Q: can we afford to do it properly? :( )or do we PTS...he has other problems (including SI strain) so decision still in the air.
 
viola said:
Thank you for all the replies, I have taken more hopefully better photos today and will post in a moment.
The question basically is - do we try barefoot (Q: can we afford to do it properly? :( )or do we PTS...he has other problems (including SI strain) so decision still in the air.
Click to expand...

Afford it? How much do you imagine it's going to cost? Barefoot is cheaper than shoes hun!
 
try shoeing it with the breakover set back. dont rasp the front away as you will take all the strength out of the foot. do talk to your farrier and vet,. getyour farrier and vet to talk.
 
Oberon said:
Afford it? How much do you imagine it's going to cost? Barefoot is cheaper than shoes hun!
Click to expand...

Really? I must say we haven't asked many trimmers but those we did it looks like he would need an access to, ideally, 24/7 turn out, 5-6 weeks intervals trimming and careful rehab on variety of surfaces. Trimmings were quoted £60-£70 ish per trimm...

All this basically means moving yards and paying someone to do the rehab hence wondering whether it's financially possible. His treatment cost ££££s so far with no results and it's hard to afford to spend more :(
 
ofcourseyoucan said:
try shoeing it with the breakover set back. dont rasp the front away as you will take all the strength out of the foot. do talk to your farrier and vet,. getyour farrier and vet to talk.
Click to expand...

I've just posted new photos...http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=8934479#post8934479 - new photos show him after he was shod with pads on Thursday and vet + farrier do talk. They decided he needs:
1) pressure taken off DDFT
2) Pad on the frog to increase frog pressure when foot hits the ground which is to improve circulation

He doesn't seem mega comfortable (two days later), looks like he places his feet with some care and testing the ground...
 
I can see what they are trying to do but I would still say get the shoes off & let him grow the foot he needs under him ;) In my experience the ability of the horse to sort itself out foot-wise when given the chance is astounding. I don't think you have anything to lose by trying this in any event.
 
This is a link to a page regarding a navicular horse from my yard. It shows a cost comparison between both traditional treatment and barefoot.

http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html

Schoko is now sound and competeing.

What you will need to go barefoot is
1) a healthy diet
2) a good trimmer (I can only recommend UKNHCP trimmers personally)
3) You MAY need a pair of front hoofboots if horse is very sore at first.

A trim costs £35ish a time.

You don't need 24/7 turnout or any other stuff but the horse's feet will improve faster with varied stimulation when ready - ie. let it have a roll in the paddock then take it for a walk down the road and back once a day!

If you intend to take the horse barefoot I suggest you hit the net and read as much as you can. There is a book "Feet First" by Nic Barker and Sarah Braithwaite that would be very helpful to you.

Getting a bit "ranty" and please don't think I'm having a pop at you, but it beguilles me how people would rather spend ££££ on drugs, remedial farriery with special gizmos or even surgery rather than just trying barefoot.

It can be (with the RIGHT support) sooo simple and cheap to be barefoot and can make a huge difference for the horse - that's why some pro-barefoot posters can sound a bit cultish!!! Everyone thinks we're crazy!
 
viola said:
All this basically means moving yards and paying someone to do the rehab hence wondering whether it's financially possible. His treatment cost ££££s so far with no results and it's hard to afford to spend more :(
Click to expand...

Having had my first horse PTS following a situation you're facing I know how you feel. My second horse developed a similar condition at 9 years old, I panicked and chose the barefoot route. Now she's 15, a mother and out one day eventing.

Its up to you, but I know what I'd choose. It doesn't have to be a permanent thing, the shoes can go back on once the feet are healed, just never permanently. Now my mantra is that I'll only shoe a foot that's healthy enough to cope with being shod. IMO the thing we forgot along the way is to give our horses a rest period out of shoes every year for the feet to ping back to their natural shape.
 
Oberon said:
This is a link to a page regarding a navicular horse from my yard. It shows a cost comparison between both traditional treatment and barefoot.

http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html

Schoko is now sound and competeing.

What you will need to go barefoot is
1) a healthy diet
2) a good trimmer (I can only recommend UKNHCP trimmers personally)
3) You MAY need a pair of front hoofboots if horse is very sore at first.

A trim costs £35ish a time.

You don't need 24/7 turnout or any other stuff but the horse's feet will improve faster with varied stimulation when ready - ie. let it have a roll in the paddock then take it for a walk down the road and back once a day!

If you intend to take the horse barefoot I suggest you hit the net and read as much as you can. There is a book "Feet First" by Nic Barker and Sarah Braithwaite that would be very helpful to you.

Getting a bit "ranty" and please don't think I'm having a pop at you, but it beguilles me how people would rather spend ££££ on drugs, remedial farriery with special gizmos or even surgery rather than just trying barefoot.

It can be (with the RIGHT support) sooo simple and cheap to be barefoot and can make a huge difference for the horse - that's why some pro-barefoot posters can sound a bit cultish!!! Everyone thinks we're crazy!
Click to expand...

Thank you for the link, interesting! I agree it does seem a bit cultish ;) But so does shoeing...

Question though: how painful is the transition from shod to barefoot? ...
 
viola said:
Thank you for the link, interesting! I agree it does seem a bit cultish ;) But so does shoeing...

Question though: how painful is the transition from shod to barefoot? ...
Click to expand...
I know, I hate the "cultish" image and I personally shoe some horses, go barefoot with others, basically I do what's right for the horse and owner.

I won't kid you that transition will be painfree, he'll get very sore and hobbly initially, hence my advice of soft deep bed, soft hoof boots for stoney ground and turnout in pasture. It'll be difficult to watch initially as the structures will be very poor and inadequate to go without shoes, but its the only realistic way back IMO. With the right care, he'll cope and then slowly you'll find him getting more comfortable. Its impossible to say how long it'll take without knowing him in person, but I'd guess at about 3 months of transition at a minimum, the first 4-6 weeks being the most difficult.
 
Re how painful is transition.

As a general rule transition shouldn't be painful - not if it is properly done.

But it will depend on how sick the feet are and how well managed the transition is. If you have really sick feet and then run the horse over stones without boots that is going to hurt. However if you use boots when necessary and listen to your horse it needn't hurt at all.

Be aware thouth that for some horses there is a short time of about 2 weeks when they may experience something similar to pins and needles. Obviously most horses (!) can't explain what it feels like, but we know that circulation increases in the foot when the shoes come off, and observation has shown that some horses really notice this.

I've known horses sounder out of shoes than with them on. Equally I also know horses whose soles have been so thinned by the process of shoeing that they have needed the protection of boots for hard/stoney surfaces until the soles have regained natural thickness.
 
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