barefoot horse wearing toes down on this ground

soulfull

soulfull

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My WB has started to wear his front toes down in this hard ground. The left one has tiny chunks out of the front bottom edge and the hoof walls are worn about an inch up.
So far he seems fine but my worry is he has VERY thin hoof wall and you can just see the white underneath the darker outer hoof. Is this likely to make him sore??

Obviously I will be speaking to my farrier but wondered if anyone else has this trouble
 
I'd be worried if he is getting down to his inner wall already as these conditions are likely to be around for some time yet.
 
Don't panic yet. They need to wear the hoof to the shape they need. The barefoot foot always looks so short to the uninitiated and this is normal as the heel should be touching the floor and the horse should be walking on it(heel, sole, wall).

As for the toe chipping? If she is a little flared, which does come with thin walls they will chip off, which is what you want. A nice roll on the toe will look less scarey and a lot tidier.

If she's not hobbling, she's doing OK:)
 
Mines ok at the moment I always have shoes taken off for winter, but then he does have quite good feet so I'm lucky, we have a little chip of the back left, but its nothing drastic, hope yours is ok, it'll be very interesting to see pictures as im studying feet at the mo =D =D
 
The white is the inner hoof wall - what we call the water line when you look at it from the solar view. It seems odd that the outer wall is being worn a whole inch up the hoof wall - are you sure your farrier isn't over rasping the wall when he trims him?
 
elsbells said:
Don't panic yet. They need to wear the hoof to the shape they need. The barefoot foot always looks so short to the uninitiated and this is normal as the heel should be touching the floor and the horse should be walking on it(heel, sole, wall).

As for the toe chipping? If she is a little flared, which does come with thin walls they will chip off, which is what you want. A nice roll on the toe will look less scarey and a lot tidier.

If she's not hobbling, she's doing OK:)
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I think this is more than that, he has been barefoot a while now and its not happened before. its not uniform either more where he is not picking up feet properly on the hard ground and taking the edge of it. It wouldn't happen if the ground wasn't so frozen

mrdarcy said:
The white is the inner hoof wall - what we call the water line when you look at it from the solar view. It seems odd that the outer wall is being worn a whole inch up the hoof wall - are you sure your farrier isn't over rasping the wall when he trims him?
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No its been 4 wks since he was trimmed and farrier is always careful not to take too much off as they are so thin, in fact he said he doesn't want to rasp the edges much because of this

I am probably worrying about nothing but never had a long term barefoot before :D
 
Elsbells lots of us have barefoot horses on here so whilst some might be "uninitiated" not all of us are! Ours live out 24/7 and I've never seen wear like this on any of mine, including youngsters through to a veteran even last winter when the ground was solid for weeks on end.

It is the fact that the wear seems to be through to the inner wall that I'm curious about. Whether it is caused by over rasping as Mrdarcy mentioned, the ground conditions or something else.
 
ISHmad said:
I'd be worried if he is getting down to his inner wall already as these conditions are likely to be around for some time yet.
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A healthy inner wall is incredibly tough. By a micro millimetre in a healthy, well trimmed foot it is the most distal point on the hoof. More than capable of standing up to a bit of snow, ice, tarmac or concrete.

What does happen in some circumstances is that the outer wall gets excessively rasped which makes it prone to chipping/cracking and more susceptible to the wet conditions we have been experiencing. Then the whole lot gets very soft. Without a period of daily drying out and if the hoof is unhealthy in any way the hoof may not stand up to working on a hard surface. It won't wear to a bloody stump, but the horse will get foot sore.

So if you can't get the diet right and the horse is stood permanently in the wet and the hoof care is less than ideal then boots can be useful :-)
 
Also re the one man's wear ..........

Horses can cope very well with quite a bit of foot missing. See this which is one of my favourites:

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/story-of-abscess.html

and see how beautiful (and functional the foot) has become

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/deviated-hooves-and-abscess-updates.html

Although the horse when I first met her was footy over stones etc, she has become rock crunching - even with that great chunk missing from her hoof

And she is a total doll to do as well. Lives out 24/7
 
LucyPriory said:
A healthy inner wall is incredibly tough. By a micro millimetre in a healthy, well trimmed foot it is the most distal point on the hoof. More than capable of standing up to a bit of snow, ice, tarmac or concrete.

What does happen in some circumstances is that the outer wall gets excessively rasped which makes it prone to chipping/cracking and more susceptible to the wet conditions we have been experiencing. Then the whole lot gets very soft. Without a period of daily drying out and if the hoof is unhealthy in any way the hoof may not stand up to working on a hard surface. It won't wear to a bloody stump, but the horse will get foot sore.

So if you can't get the diet right and the horse is stood permanently in the wet and the hoof care is less than ideal then boots can be useful :-)
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That makes sense. I hope that inner wall is stronger than his outer one :D

He is an exceptionally good doer and is fed

Molichop lite 3/4 stubbs scoop
hand full of slow release cubes (spillers) I find this give him the energy I want

mag ox
codlivine vit and min suppliment

speedi beet

I would be interested to know what to feed to strengthen the hoof wall. This barefoot diet is very new to me and I have not even had time to think about changes to reduce sugar etc. I have tried other chaffs but he won't eat the coursers type ones like hi fi lite etc. this molichop lite is very soft
 
That's really interesting re the inner wall, thanks LucyPriory. We use a DAEP to trim our barefoot horses and one of the things they do is look to load the inner and outer walls. Would the type of trim Soulfull's horse is getting be a factor here or do you think it is more down to diet etc.
 
Photos and I'll give honest opinion on the evidence. So many variables.

I see endless hooves where the hoof wall has been thinned in a (doomed) attempt to bring the angles into line with a human ordained aesthetic.

The usual causal factor of 'off' angles is diet in origin and the best way to get the correct angle for each individual horse is to facilitate the growing of a healthy hoof.

Mind you I've also seen countless hooves where the angles are way off because of how they have been shod/trimmed and the diet isn't too bad.

This horse has a steep foot purely from how he has been trimmed (or not trimmed).

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/11/are-you-being-kept-in-dark.html

Having a hoof in the hand is the best way of 'reading' it but photos give some clues, although the shots have to be in focus and from a decent angle with good lighting :-)

The real trick to my job is to have three pairs of hands :-)
 
LucyPriory said:
Photos and I'll give honest opinion on the evidence. So many variables.

I see endless hooves where the hoof wall has been thinned in a (doomed) attempt to bring the angles into line with a human ordained aesthetic.

The usual causal factor of 'off' angles is diet in origin and the best way to get the correct angle for each individual horse is to facilitate the growing of a healthy hoof.

Mind you I've also seen countless hooves where the angles are way off because of how they have been shod/trimmed and the diet isn't too bad.

This horse has a steep foot purely from how he has been trimmed (or not trimmed).

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/11/are-you-being-kept-in-dark.html

Having a hoof in the hand is the best way of 'reading' it but photos give some clues, although the shots have to be in focus and from a decent angle with good lighting :-)

The real trick to my job is to have three pairs of hands :-)
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sounds good. any particular angle you want photos from?
 
Some people give Biotin supplements - but keep in mind that the hoof grows so slowly that what you feed will take months and months to pay out. Perhaps your farrier or trimmer can advise.

I just wanted to post to reassure you a bit. I lived in a cold country for many years and can say that people ride and train horses on frozen ground for months of the year for example in Scandinavia. The standardbred trotters for example, you can't train them in an indoor school. And most of the time they are absolutely fine. Many horses are shod, but some aren't, and I can't really recall people talking about their horses feet getting smashed up by the hard frozen ground.

If you have a chance to post photos it will be interesting to hear what LucyPriory says about them.
 
I only had fronts put on my girls about 2 weeks ago instead of full sets, our Pheeb full TB coping quite well although not being ridden at the moment due to frozen ground, they in at night, out in field during the day but Emma my 7/8th TB is not doing as good, she is VERY footy on her bad feet to the point I feel like a bad Mummy! Fingers crossed they harden up a little very soon or will have to get farrier out again
xx
 
soulfull said:
That makes sense. I hope that inner wall is stronger than his outer one :D

He is an exceptionally good doer and is fed

Molichop lite 3/4 stubbs scoop
hand full of slow release cubes (spillers) I find this give him the energy I want

mag ox
codlivine vit and min suppliment

speedi beet

I would be interested to know what to feed to strengthen the hoof wall. This barefoot diet is very new to me and I have not even had time to think about changes to reduce sugar etc. I have tried other chaffs but he won't eat the coursers type ones like hi fi lite etc. this molichop lite is very soft
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Might be worth taking a close look at his diet? Mollichop is quite high in sugar. My (fussy but very sensitive to sugar) mare likes Top spec top chop lite. It has no sugar added but does have some dried mint in which seems to make the health food more tasty! Also check out the ingredients in the cubes - another popular hiding place for tricky sugar! Also assuming no nasties like lickits are hiding in his stable. Even though the amount given each day is small, even that small amount of additional sugar can have a really big negative effect on hoof health.
 
Photos (hooves)

Full front, full side, (camera set on floor)

flat solar - foot up and camera directly above

If you are feeling camera happy then heels from behind (camera set on floor)

and with the foot up, heels from behind, with toe slightly tipped so you get a view of heels and solar bowl. This one can be tricky to focus correctly.

Not a fan of chaffs and chops for the metabolically sensitive because low sugar can be quite high........ it is just lower than some.

ditto - feeds that don't list their ingredients usually have something to hide and its usually cheap fillers and sugar/starch.

But they have to put a (small) white label on the bottom of the bag with a listing, so if it hasn't fallen off this is a good place to start.
 
LucyPriory said:
Photos (hooves)

Full front, full side, (camera set on floor)

flat solar - foot up and camera directly above

If you are feeling camera happy then heels from behind (camera set on floor)

and with the foot up, heels from behind, with toe slightly tipped so you get a view of heels and solar bowl. This one can be tricky to focus correctly.

Not a fan of chaffs and chops for the metabolically sensitive because low sugar can be quite high........ it is just lower than some.

ditto - feeds that don't list their ingredients usually have something to hide and its usually cheap fillers and sugar/starch.

But they have to put a (small) white label on the bottom of the bag with a listing, so if it hasn't fallen off this is a good place to start.
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I can understand your views on chaff. But what do you feed a fatty to put suppliments like mag ox in, that will also fill his tummy to prevent colic when he is turned out?
I find some balancers send his type silly especially top spec bet they too have too much sugar
 
soulfull said:
I can understand your views on chaff. But what do you feed a fatty to put suppliments like mag ox in, that will also fill his tummy to prevent colic when he is turned out?
I find some balancers send his type silly especially top spec bet they too have too much sugar
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I would love to know too! The topchop lite is the best I can find to add her magox and yeasacc to, but if there is something better for the sugar sensitive good doer then I would love to know so I can improve her diet. Getting info from manufacturers is so tricky so you can get a realistic idea of what you are feeding - makes it much harder than it needs to be!
 
glosgirl said:
I would love to know too! The topchop lite is the best I can find to add her magox and yeasacc to, but if there is something better for the sugar sensitive good doer then I would love to know so I can improve her diet. Getting info from manufacturers is so tricky so you can get a realistic idea of what you are feeding - makes it much harder than it needs to be!
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Top Chop lite has no added sugar (as does the Hi Fi Molasses free), the molichop the OP mentioned unless is says molasses free could have between 15 and 24 % sugar depending on the brand so not the same thing.

There are some concerns about the mould inhibitors and preservatives used but that is a different discussion.

Unmolassed sugar beet can be a good option for some to carry supplements.
 
My girl is lami and EPSM so sugar and starch must be minimal.

Before I turn her out I give her a breakfast of:

100g (dry weight) Kwik Beet
100g micronised linseed
100ml of dried herbs

Vit/min supplement


(and for the EPSM 250ml of oil)

Plus 1kg (dry weight) of soaked hay.

She eats this lot while I muck out and defrost pipes.........
 
We don;t use chaffs - we use unmolassed sugar beet - washed.

You can feed a fair bit of SB. Another concern about chaffs is the mold inhibitors and antifungals. They don;t need the molasses really - so that's best avoided

One of my cobs is wearing down his toes at the moment - digging in the snow - not concerned about it at all. As long as the general hoof health is OK then it's not going to be an issue really.

Interesting thing about the angles. This cob has steeper angles than I am accustomed to - in his old place he had fat cattle grass and hard feed. Been with us for 6 months now on a lower sugar and cereal free diet and regrown the entire hoof - and it is steeper than it was. Good concavity, great thickness of wall, self trimming on the whole and keeps his own roll on, heels not high and a nice meaty wide frog that hits the ground first. They're not at all tin can feet.

Unfortunately it is hard to see the hoof -pastern angles becuase of all his feathers! But he has the best feet of the 4, the most functonal. As you'd expect becuase he has never had shoes on. But any trimmer looking at them would consider the angle steep and want to "address it" - not that there is anying to trim off he does it all himself, my trimmimg is simply smoothing and tidying!
 
People with barefoot horses have found lots of different ways to feed with min sugar.

Dengie Alfalfa pellets, Speedibeet, Fibrebeet, Simple system feeds, Thunderbrook feeds, Dengie Mollases free range, Allan & Page's mollassed free range, Fast Fibre to name but a few off the top of my head.

added to can micronised linseed, brewers yeast, wheat bran/rice bran for poor doers (with limestone flour)

soaked/sprouted oats for energy if needed (fed after exercise)

I also like to add herbs and plants. I buy from Cotswold Herbs but I like blends from Equinatural.

Feet First has alot of info in it.

It sounds mad as my horses have no problem with sugar, but I noticed a huge difference in the quality of their hooves when I went from Happyhoof and commercial mixes to a 'barefoot diet'.
 
criso said:
Top Chop lite has no added sugar (as does the Hi Fi Molasses free), the molichop the OP mentioned unless is says molasses free could have between 15 and 24 % sugar depending on the brand so not the same thing.

There are some concerns about the mould inhibitors and preservatives used but that is a different discussion.

Unmolassed sugar beet can be a good option for some to carry supplements.
Click to expand...

That is why I picked the topchop, but anything better is always good! I have always been told that SB should be fed with a chaff to help avoid choke. Do people just feed straight SB with no probs? Is it possible to get soaked SB nutritional info so I could compare it to the chaff I use? Fast fibre is fab, but i stoped feeding it when I found it had garlic in - mare also gets sweetitch so I try and avoid garlic. Like to keep calories to a minimum too as she is a good doer. I know it is only a little fed each day, but as a big supermarket likes us to know 'every little helps'!!
 
Whilst most chops and chaffs have preservatives and mold inhibitors sugar beet has it's own issues and I've stopped feeding it in anything but small quantities. The problem with sugar beet is the amount of pesticides sprayed on it whilst growing. It has one of the highest incidences of pest infestation of all vegetables and therefore is blasted with a huge number of very strong chemicals in the field. Because it's a root vegetable these pesticides are absorbed right into the heart of the vegetable, so no amount of washing will get rid of the chemicals. The only way to ensure chemical free sugar beet pulp is to make it from organic sugar beet but as far as I am aware there are no horse feed companies making organic sugar beet products. I have the same issue with carrots so if I do ever feed carrots I make sure they are organic.

My barefoot lot are fed on

Calm & Condition (barley and molasses free)
Alfa-A Molasses Free
Human grade porridge oats (for those that need a bit extra pop/condition)
Dodson & Horrall Surelimb vit and mineral supplement
A dollop of apple cider vinegar

They've all got great feet at the moment so that diet seems to be working well.

Other feeds they've done well on are Winergy Equilibrium Low Energy. I also like Saracen Releve and Rice Bran feeds like EquiJewel.
 
My old boy is on a forage replacer diet due to dental issues.

The main forages I feed are Dengie Alfalfa pellets (good source of protein and iron which suits our forage) and Speedibeet.

He gets a huge bucket full and he is doing fine on it.

Regarding choke - sloppy feeds (such as SB) are fine for choke. They don't need a chaff with it.

I do feed Readigrass with his feeds to slow him down, but this may not be appropriate for other horses.
 
lots of food for thought, thanks guys, shall have another comparing sesh and see how we do!
(apologies for barging into your thread op!)
 
one more feed to disguise supplements in and/or slow down the eating of the concentrate feeds: happy hoof. It is palatable, fibre rich and not loaded with molasses.
 
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