Barefoot Horses in Advanced Dressage

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007Equestrian

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I'm training my mare at Advanced level dressage and she is currently barefoot. We took her shoes off last winter as her frogs were very narrow and flakey with deep but narrow splits in the centre of the frog. Her feet are now much better, her frogs are wide and healthy and the splits are more or less gone. However at a lesson with a well respected trainer she advised me that no horse can compete above advanced medium barefoot without putting extra strain on their joints. I want the best for my mare and would put shoes on if required!

I know some horses have ridden Grand Prix barefoot but I am now overly paranoid that she might need extra support as we start doing more work on her canter pirouettes and piaffe/passage. She's twelve now and is an Irish Sports Horse so is a bit chunkier than your average skinny supermodel thoroughbred!

Thanks all!
 
Wouldn't shoes surely add strain to joints with their extra weight? We're training at adv med now, with working canter pirouettes and she likes passage due to her breeding (I don't ask for it but sometimes get it accidently :o), but I have zero plans for putting shoes back on.

Topaz is a Friesian x Hackney and fairly chunky, though not that tall, her feet are excellent so can't imagine what shoeing would do to help her dressage?

The only time I would shoe now would be for a medical reason (like needing a plate to hold the hoof together after a hoof related surgery) or if I needed to stud.
 
Is say dressage must be the one discipline where it would be relatively 'easy' to compete at the top unshod.

I'd say don't look for a problem - if the horse is sound and progressing as you would like in your training then stay as you are.
 
I would love to hear how she thinks shoes can prevent strain on her joints.

The biggest saver of joints is surely a big meaty frog taking all the concussion!

Carry on as you are, I would say!
 
I don't know much about higher level dressage, but isn't there a trainer that prides themself on barefoot & 24 hour turnout but competes at high level with them?
I might have made that up! :D
 
B*ll*cks!
My old girl is still barefoot aged 27yo and competed successfully to Inter I, including placing top 3 at regionals. 7/8 Tb and happily hacked out over any ground barefoot as well.
Emma Hindle competed a lot of hers barefoot at international level.
P*star and her sister both compete barefoot. Nic's TB (!) is competing advanced level and training GP barefoot.
There is somebody else competing GP who keeps all her horses living out and barefoot ( name escapes me ATM)
 
Ask your trainer exactly how she thinks shoes can prevent strain on the joints.

Crackers ,yes and I'm blowed if I can remember her name either. She's in Devon. Emma something?
 
AlexHyde said:
Wouldn't shoes surely add strain to joints with their extra weight? We're training at adv med now, with working canter pirouettes and she likes passage due to her breeding (I don't ask for it but sometimes get it accidently :o), but I have zero plans for putting shoes back on.

Topaz is a Friesian x Hackney and fairly chunky, though not that tall, her feet are excellent so can't imagine what shoeing would do to help her dressage?

The only time I would shoe now would be for a medical reason (like needing a plate to hold the hoof together after a hoof related surgery) or if I needed to stud.
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This is what I thought! Her reasoning was that her horses have wedge shoes, gel pads etc on their feet and these would be impossible without shoes. She competes quite a few horses at PSG - Grand Prix and every single one has pads, heartbar shoes or wedges! I'd rather prevent issues if I can so was concerned I was putting too much strain on my girl's hocks.
 
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TRCequestrian said:
This is what I thought! Her reasoning was that her horses have wedge shoes, gel pads etc on their feet and these would be impossible without shoes. She competes quite a few horses at PSG - Grand Prix and every single one has pads, heartbar shoes or wedges! I'd rather prevent issues if I can so was concerned I was putting too much strain on my girl's hocks.
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My god I'd be running for the hills at that shoeing (not your instructor lol), my oldie had hearbar wedges on which contributed to lameness and an abscess, best decision for her was taking them off!

My train of thought now is that if a horse needs all that then it must be hiding an issue...
 
TRCequestrian said:
This is what I thought! Her reasoning was that her horses have wedge shoes, gel pads etc on their feet and these would be impossible without shoes. She competes quite a few horses at PSG - Grand Prix and every single one has pads, heartbar shoes or wedges! I'd rather prevent issues if I can so was concerned I was putting too much strain on my girl's hocks.
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Might not be needed either if they had the feet your horse now has... Scary attitude she needs to educate herself about feet!

Would you think high heels would protect you from knee pain in later life?

I'm astounded. Her horses need all these things because the shoes haven't "protected" anything!
 
AlexHyde said:
My god I'd be running for the hills at that shoeing (not your instructor lol), my oldie had hearbar wedges on which contributed to lameness and an abscess, best decision for her was taking them off!

My train of thought now is that if a horse needs all that then it must be hiding an issue...
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Those horses have more expensive and intricate footwear than I do :P I always wondered if it was a case of pushy farriers and over protective owners but at the same time I didn't want to be uneducated in case I was putting my girl at risk.

The only thing I would worry about is that if her hoof isn't perfectly balanced then would that put more strain on her tendons? I know roughly what to look for in a balanced foot but my farrier is a (very good) general purpose farrier rather than a sports horse farrier. He think's I'm a total fusspot but my horse is my baby haha!
 
TRCequestrian said:
This is what I thought! Her reasoning was that her horses have wedge shoes, gel pads etc on their feet and these would be impossible without shoes. She competes quite a few horses at PSG - Grand Prix and every single one has pads, heartbar shoes or wedges! I'd rather prevent issues if I can so was concerned I was putting too much strain on my girl's hocks.
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Maybe they wouldn't require wedges and pads if they didn't have shoes in the first place, possibly a different take on it but her reasoning makes no sense to me, if your horse is doing well why change anything, I think there will be more top level horses competing without shoes in the future it should be easy when all dressage comps are on decent surfaces so studs will very rarely be needed.
 
It's a very very silly comment and I would worry about working with someone so much in the dark ages.
Honestly there's no reason why a horse can't do advanced work without shoes .
 
UNless your horse needs shoeing (remedial, bad feet, trauma, work etc etc) then I see no reason why you can't do dressage unshod. The only issue I see is if the feet are trimmed badly and the balance is off, or if you do a lot of competitions and/or training on grass. Or so much roadwork that you wear the foot down faster than it grows (like our driving ponies, now shod for competition, but were unshod until their roadwork increased and shoes were required!)
 
TRCequestrian said:
The only thing I would worry about is that if her hoof isn't perfectly balanced then would that put more strain on her tendons? I know roughly what to look for in a balanced foot but my farrier is a (very good) general purpose farrier rather than a sports horse farrier. He think's I'm a total fusspot but my horse is my baby haha!
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There is no way a farrier can balance a hoof to fit the leg above it better than the horse can itself, assuming it is healthy, sound and gets plenty of turnout.
 
TRCequestrian said:
This is what I thought! Her reasoning was that her horses have wedge shoes, gel pads etc on their feet and these would be impossible without shoes. She competes quite a few horses at PSG - Grand Prix and every single one has pads, heartbar shoes or wedges! I'd rather prevent issues if I can so was concerned I was putting too much strain on my girl's hocks.
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Odd reading that as I have mine bf and do dr. Surely wedge, pads heartbars are all "pretending" to be a proper foot? Just got to real thing. Sod everyone else...

Paddle your own canoe.

What you will see is many masters of dr don't shoe for the very reason that the well developed unshod hoof not only protects the tendons and joints, it actually adapts to the level of work and can increase or decrease the size of the hoof to accommodate a strengthening tendon within the capsule.

A shoe would only restrict and keep a growing tendon within it's confines gradually leading to lameness... as we all know.

It shows a distinctly closed mindset and completely unscientific way of thinking about how the horses anatomy actually functions.
 
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Your trainer has probably always been told that horses can't compete above X, Y or Z level without shoes and she is being advised by the professionals she uses that her horses NEED specialist shoeing to stay sound (and either hasn't asked why or has been satisfied with a "just because" answer rather than delving into the science of it). When she sees your horse working at / towards a level she's always thought to be impossible she has for whatever reason tried to rationalise this by deciding to disbelieve what she's seeing and claiming that (despite currently appearing sound and coping with the work fine form your description) your horse will inevitably become lame at some point in the future (presumably because this way no change of opinion / move towards being open minded about the possibility of horses being capable of Advanced Dressage barefoot needs to occur).

Unless this trainer is an expert in / has qualifications in equine biomechanics and is able to back up their opinion with fact rather than just that this is the way it's always been / what they have been told by their own vet and farrier then I'd carry on as you are doing. Your own farrier is happy that the horse is sound. I'd guess any horse at that level is potentially at risk of injury as certain movements can be quite hard on the joints regardless of shod / barefoot / whatever else.
 
Fairly certain that Steffen Peters from USA is taking most if not all of his horses barefoot. I read something somewhere about his wife having a horse with whom bf was a last chance and it did really well so now she has transitioned hers and his horses are following suit.

I may have totally made that up or distorted the memory of my reading it somewhat. I'll see if I can find the article.
 
Boulty said:
I'd guess any horse at that level is potentially at risk of injury as certain movements can be quite hard on the joints regardless of shod / barefoot / whatever else.
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So much truth in the sentence. It's so sad :(.

'Modern' dressage IS hard on the horse at a high level.

None of the movements in 'modern' dressage seek to preserve joints, back, health or hooves. I have no idea how it got this way but it's somewhere in the middle of wanting to produce ever "flashier" young horses to wow and win, and having to control the ever increasing mass of raw power underneath only using bits of leather and levers.

Many people follow this way of riding and so will always need more force and more boots and pads and straps. In the background there has been the 'classical' people, mainly ignored, sometimes laughed at - that have always said take the long road, it will preserve the horse. No one listens... so more horses "need" stuff to "fix" all the problems.

But, that is the way of people. Always wanting more, quicker.
 
I agree as dressage is mainly on a surface that it would be one area where horses could compete easily without shoes.

I thought the main reason for having shoes is that they prevent the hooves from being worn down if you do a lot of work on hard ground and to offer some protection if the ground is very stony/flinty/rough. Hence why some barefoot have to wear hoof boots if they go on stony ground.

I don't think shoeing will prevent tendon and ligament injuries, or RSI injuries. Research seems to indicate that what does help prevent injuries is cross training and working on different surfaces, turnout, as well as ensuring training is correct and the horse is fit and mature enough to do what is being asked of it. Horses beings asked to do too much to young and the wrong conformation for the job may also have an impact.

Remedial shoeing has its place for the injured horse. However if your horse is currently barefoot and managing well then there is no reason why it should have to be shod to do higher levels of dressage unless may be you are going to do a lot more hacking on hard or stony ground as part of cross training and you don't want to use hoof boots.
 
My horse is competing small tour and training GP barefoot and a lot of the higher level horses I work with are unshod behind as we find the horses are better without shoes, finding the collection easier and having less soundness issues.
 
I was just going to say that you should look up the incredible Boston Deluxe but it looks like his owner got there first!
JLav said:
My horse is competing small tour and training GP barefoot and a lot of the higher level horses I work with are unshod behind as we find the horses are better without shoes, finding the collection easier and having less soundness issues.
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This is why I struggle to take many people's advice these days, after being told by one instructor that shoes support the tendons in the legs. I couldn't even be bothered to start on that one and just walked away (metaphorically :D )
 
Kylara said:
UNless your horse needs shoeing (remedial, bad feet, trauma, work etc etc) then I see no reason why you can't do dressage unshod. The only issue I see is if the feet are trimmed badly and the balance is off, or if you do a lot of competitions and/or training on grass. Or so much roadwork that you wear the foot down faster than it grows (like our driving ponies, now shod for competition, but were unshod until their roadwork increased and shoes were required!)
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Yes we use hoof boots on her for any extended road work :)
 
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