Barefoot - How's it looking?

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rlhnlk

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So following on from a thread I started a couple of weeks ago I've taken my girls back shoes off. She seems to be coping ok with this, the stony ground hasn't caused any noticeable problems. She was a bit footy when the ground froze for a few days, but seems to be getting better all the time, I've put her on brewers yeast aswell which should hopefully help too.

I am just wondering, has anyone had a horse who has taken a while to adjust to the change in balance? I know they're only half an inch lower behind but it seems to have made a real change to her, it's taken some of the power out of her paces, not an entirely bad thing at the moment as she sometimes overpowered and lost it. It's having a slight negative effect on the lateral work though, she doesn't have as much swing through the sideways stuff. Has anyone else found this and how long did it last for you?

So I'm also wondering how you think her feet are looking now? Shoes have been off 11 days, first pics are the day she had them off, I can't see much difference myself but I have a terrible eye for these things. Piccies below, any thoughts welcome :)

Near hind:
Before
510.jpg

Now
516.jpg

Before
514.jpg

Now
517.jpg


Off hind:
Before
511.jpg

Now
518.jpg

Before
513.jpg

Now
5192-1.jpg
 
It'll probably take a good few months before you notice a really significant difference in her hooves, for the new hoof to grow through. I think they look great thoug - not cracked or dry or anything! :) But in the off-hind photos, It might be the angle of the photo but her hoof 'now' looks a bit flatter? I might be wrong!
 
Miss L Toe said:
I am no expert, the sole looks good, but I cringe at the toe, it looks too short, wait for cptrayes to cpmment
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The toes have been heavily rasped causing what's called 'bull nosed' and thinning the hoof wall through to the inner wall (white horn showing through). It will grow out as the hoof grows down.
Yep cptrayes will have more informed comments.
 
Thanks :) I think it will take a while for a real difference but a few people said the hoof shape might change a lot on the first week, not sure if thats true or not, and if it is whether it's a good or bad thing that hers haven't change much.

I see what you mean about her foot looking flatter now, I think it's just the angle, her foot is still concave when you look at it from underneath, it could just be where the lumpy bits from the before photo's have come away aswell, I'll keep an eye on that though just in case.
 
My comment is:

Good Grief! What on earth has your farrier been doing to her feet? I have rarely seen such horrible little stumps on the end of a horse'sback legs in my life :eek:

Second point is that if you want to compare progress, then I am really sorry but you have no alternative than to grovel in the dirt. You need side on shots with the camera on the floor, and you need to be there with it to get the right angle. :o

If your horse is not moving as well yet it is because she is slightly sore on both hinds equally, so she does not appear lame because it is equal sided. This can take a couple of months to disappear with feet starting from where your horse's are. She appears to have underrun heels*, which are not as common on back feet, and she probably doesn't have a correct angle to the pedal bone in the back feet, which may be why her pastern axis looks stiff and uncomfortable. If you stick with it until her heels are back underneath her cannon bones and properly supporting her legs, everything will change.

Does she have an issue with a sore back, by any chance?



* the point where the ground has been wearing her frog is well behind the point where it has been wearing her hoof wall at the heel. the two should be more in line. She also looks as though your farrier may have heavily pared her sole - has he or are they just clean?
 
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amandap said:
The toes have been heavily rasped causing what's called 'bull nosed' and thinning the hoof wall through to the inner wall (white horn showing through). It will grow out as the hoof grows down.
Yep cptrayes will have more informed comments.
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True bull nosed feet are that shape without anything being rasped off by a farrier and in my experience are an indication of negative coffin bone angle in the feet.

I looked hard at the photos and I can't quite tell whether they are true bullnose in spite of the toe dumping or just fake bullnose because of it. We need scrabble-in-the-dirt photos please :)

OP if the bullnose does not go as the feet grow longer, then you mayl need to look closely at diet as, in my experience, it is related to an inability to deal with too much carbohydrate in the diet.

If she does have bullnose feet then she may also "stand under" on the back end for quite a while until her heels build up to put the coffin bone angle right.
 
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cptrayes said:
True bull nosed feet are that shape without anything being rasped off by a farrier and in my experience are an indication of negative coffin bone angle in the feet.

I looked hard at the photos and I can't quite tell whether they are true bullnose in spite of the toe dumping or just fake bullnose because of it. We need scrabble-in-the-dirt photos please :)

OP if the bullnose does not go as the feet grow longer, then you mayl need to look closely at diet as, in my experience, it is related to an inability to deal with too much carbohydrate in the diet.

If she does have bullnose feet then she may also "stand under" on the back end for quite a while until her heels build up to put the coffin bone angle right.
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Good points and info. I assumed they had been rasped at the toe because I can see white showing through particularly in the second photo at lower part of the toe. Or is it dry mud? lol
 
Thanks for the early heads up Miss L Toe, I duly have my tin hat on and can therefore calmly answer:

My horse has only ever had a bad back when there is an obvious cause, the most recent being putting her back legs through a solid, as yet unknown object, others including her practicing rodeo stops in her field in the mood and losing her back end, and a saddle not fitting. She is not the kind to put up with discomfort, she tells me clearly and then it get's fixed.

She's also *touchs wood* has no problems with her back legs (other than self inflicted, see above paragraph) and has had no foot related problems, in the last 5 years she's only ever lost 2 shoes, both fronts.

I'm inclined to think that this may be her normal shape rather than strictly caused by my farrier, from memory he doesn't ever take much off her toes, and it's now about 8 weeks since the farrier has rasped her feet, he literally took them off 11 days ago and didn't touch them other than levering the shoe off. I will aquire some scrabble on the clean concrete photo's though. Aside from diet is there anything else I should be looking at if it is her normal shape?

With regards to them being stumps, I promise in real life they don't look out of proportion, to me anyway, she has skinny legs and would look odd if her feet were very much bigger. In the pics her legs look thicker because they are covered with mud, which may be making them look more stump like.

She isn't acting sore when ridden, she did to start with, she wouldn't go forwards willingly, hollowing etc, refusing to canter for a few strides (I gave it less than 5 mins and then decided she was being quite clear that it was uncomfortable), she feels comfortable, just like there's less spring, I wondered if this related to the change in angle and her being made to sit more that she's used to?
 
You need to compare how she is without asking her to sit more than you usually do. If she is not pushing off as much then I would say that indicates a mild bilateral sensitivity which would be completely normal at 11 days, or that she is simply not used to feeling the pressure on her feet and being cautious.

Your farrier has certainly rasped off her toe, but how much is a question we can't answer without the side-one photos. Pick a dry day :) If she is happy in her back and they look good to you, then I suspect your photos are very deceptive, but that's common too :)

If she does have bull noses they will come right in time, but you may need to get her onto a low sugar/high fibre diet and we would practically all recommend added magnesium oxide and many of us also use yeast to very good effect. I also supplement copper to counteract high iron and manganese in my land.
 
Miss L Toe said:
OP. can I politely suggest you ask around for an expert in feet to come and talk to you, These feet are desperate so swerve your current farrier.
If you tell us where you live, someone will suggest a better one!
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Thank you for the suggestion, at this point I'll politely decline, over the last 9 years I've had no foot related problems, caused by my farriers, with any of the 3 horses I have. The problems I have had relate to my old retired welshie and relate to chronic laminitis, my vet was complimentary about how my horses feet are done, and how my farriers dealt with the remedial work done on the welshie.

On top of that, my farriers turn up when they say they will, and treat my horses nicely to their face, there are a fair few around here that I can't say either of the above for.

I appreciate you may well think me an idiot for this, I don't mind if you do, but please bear in mind you're judging based solely on 4 pics of the outside of her hoof walls, I'm judging based on the entire length of owning her, being able to see her move and feel her move and view her feet up close and therefore with correct perspective :)
 
rlhnlk said:
Thanks for the early heads up Miss L Toe, I duly have my tin hat on and can therefore calmly answer:
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Good for you op. :)
A lot of hoof material can be removed with a very few swipes of a rasp. Rasps are not benign pieces of equipment. The wall should follow on down from the top inch/centimetre (depending) at the same angle to the ground. If the toe has been rasped it has been done at an odd (? incorrect) angle at the bottom part which causes the bull nosed look. This is sometimes done to bring a forward running toe back I believe and /or to make a hoof pleasing to the eye. This isn't advisable (I understand) because it thins the wall. Any adjustment should be done from underneath and only as much as is safe to do for the horses comfort and movement. Long toes tend to go with long and under run heels.

Having said my understanding, the cause of the bull nose shape needs to be found in time to know it's significance.

I also second the advice of getting a professional to assess the hooves in person.
 
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cptrayes said:
You need to compare how she is without asking her to sit more than you usually do. If she is not pushing off as much then I would say that indicates a mild bilateral sensitivity which would be completely normal at 11 days, or that she is simply not used to feeling the pressure on her feet and being cautious.

Your farrier has certainly rasped off her toe, but how much is a question we can't answer without the side-one photos. Pick a dry day :) If she is happy in her back and they look good to you, then I suspect your photos are very deceptive, but that's common too :)

If she does have bull noses they will come right in time, but you may need to get her onto a low sugar/high fibre diet and we would practically all recommend added magnesium oxide and many of us also use yeast to very good effect. I also supplement copper to counteract high iron and manganese in my land.
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That makes sense actually, she's happy to go forward with non lateral work, but the lateral work is where she would really need to sit to do it, so that could be the difference, in your experience how long on average does it take for that sensitivity to go? She is cautious too if something has hurt before so I don't expect her to be back to normal in a matter of days.

I missed your point about heavy paring of the sole, it hasn't been pared at all in the last 8 weeks at least, it is scrubbed clean in the photo. I'll pm you once I get some ground level pics.

Thanks for all the advice everyone, it is appreciated :)
 
rlhnlk said:
I appreciate you may well think me an idiot for this, I don't mind if you do, but please bear in mind you're judging based solely on 4 pics of the outside of her hoof walls, I'm judging based on the entire length of owning her, being able to see her move and feel her move and view her feet up close and therefore with correct perspective :)
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I certainly do not think you are an idiot. You have a good point about the photos (and photos in general) being potentially misleading too.
ps. I'd treat for thrush too.
 
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Your horse has a low cranial arc, in both before and now pics the horse has worn the edge of the toe off in the direction of flight. quite often there is loss of dorsal wall as a result of this low action giving the appearance of over rasped, made worse by sand arenas, can sometimes be heard when shod on tarmac. Can be a loss of flexion in the hock stifle issues or weak in the back. Might not suite barefoot if that toe keeps wearing.
 
Thanks amandap - it's nice to not be thought of as an idiot :) What makes you think thrush and what sort of treatment would you be thinking of doing?

A Guilding - Your post looks very informed but has gone a little bit over my head, can you expand what you mean about the low cranial arc? What would I be hearing? Also are you saying that this is caused by loss of flexion or weak back or that the low cranial arc would cause these? This may be ringing a bell depending on what you mean.
 
He's basically saying your horse is shuffling.
Walls look over rasped to me.
No horse wears their toe all the way through the white line.
 
Cranial arc is the hind limb moving towards the head, the height it travels varies, your horse looks low, hence it catches its toe, you would of probably heard it while trotting on the road. I dont think any thing has caused any thing, its just the sum total of his conformation.
 
Oberon said:
He's basically saying your horse is shuffling.
Walls look over rasped to me.
No horse wears their toe all the way through the white line.
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I am not saying that.
The wear has appeared at the distal border after the farrier has left the yard. the dorsal wall i cant say nor can you.
Of course they can wear through to the white line.
 
Here's a blog post about non rasped (true) bull nosing showing it growing out. ps. HA is healing angle ie. the angle of the wall at the top inch (ish) of the hoof wall.
http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/bull-nosed-hooves.html

rlhnlk said:
What makes you think thrush and what sort of treatment would you be thinking of doing?
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The last pic labelled now.The frog looks quite blackish. It may just be wet though. Red horse sole cleanse or scrubbing with salt water solution and application of sudocrem. Looking again at the earlier pics the frog looks nicely calloused. I'm manic about thrush as it can be painful and get worse if not treated and kept on top of..
 
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See now that's making a lot of sense about the low cranial arc. Horse has only been back in work since around August following 3 months box rest for a suspected potential spiral fracture. As a result of the nature of the box rest work was re-introduced slowly and even now she isn't back to her previous fitness. Something I have noticed since the box rest and loss of fitness is that she found it harder to sit and track up and there was a lack of spring to her movement. This is improving as her fitness improves. Its something I test by watching her on the lunge, as time is going on I don't have to chase her to get her to track up and she's also picking up her feet more. But it would make sense that if she isn't picking her feet up enough then it would be wearing her toes. She's a total prat to hack so doesn't go on tarmac, but arena is rubber on a sand/fibre base I think so the potential is there for her to wear a reasonable amount. I might try duck taping her toe for arena work for a few weeks and see if that makes a difference.
 
rlhnlk said:
See now that's making a lot of sense about the low cranial arc. Horse has only been back in work since around August following 3 months box rest for a suspected potential spiral fracture. As a result of the nature of the box rest work was re-introduced slowly and even now she isn't back to her previous fitness. Something I have noticed since the box rest and loss of fitness is that she found it harder to sit and track up and there was a lack of spring to her movement. This is improving as her fitness improves. Its something I test by watching her on the lunge, as time is going on I don't have to chase her to get her to track up and she's also picking up her feet more. But it would make sense that if she isn't picking her feet up enough then it would be wearing her toes. She's a total prat to hack so doesn't go on tarmac, but arena is rubber on a sand/fibre base I think so the potential is there for her to wear a reasonable amount. I might try duck taping her toe for arena work for a few weeks and see if that makes a difference.
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If you want to put a hole in an oak door then rub it with sand.
was the spiral fracture in front or behind?
 
It was in front, about 8 inches above her kness, it didn't show on any of 8 x-rays, the vet wanted to be ultra cautious though as he said that if the fracture was tiny enough and they weren't perfectly straight on to it then it wouldn't show up, so better be over careful than have something shatter. I felt happy to take his advice on that one. There is still slight scar tissue over her tendons but the physio feels not enough to affect her movement. Her paces definitly have changed as a result of the box rest, and aren't back to where they were.
 
rlhnlk said:
It was in front, about 8 inches above her kness, it didn't show on any of 8 x-rays, the vet wanted to be ultra cautious though as he said that if the fracture was tiny enough and they weren't perfectly straight on to it then it wouldn't show up, so better be over careful than have something shatter. I felt happy to take his advice on that one. There is still slight scar tissue over her tendons but the physio feels not enough to affect her movement. Her paces definitly have changed as a result of the box rest, and aren't back to where they were.
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Could be box rest could be trauma, as its bilateral I would get your physio to look just behind the saddle in front of pelvis
 
Physio has been several times since the box rest, the most recent was new years eve and the problem was further than that, but that and the drop in performance that prompted the visit coincided with her putting her back legs through something, fence or tree or similar. Since that was put right she's been fine. I think with her paces it relates to her being unfit, she really was at square one after the box rest. Her canter in particular was vile, she was rigid through her back. Have done tonne's of work on suppling since and the difference is remarkable. She's gone from undertracking bu choice on the lunge to tracking up on the lunge, I would say the arc of movement from her back feet is about two inches higher from a very low starting point. Ridden she's starting to get that swing that I always associate with cadence. It's just she still has a long way to go. Physically she isn't built uphill and finds sitting hard so with a lack of fitness it verges on impossible. As the fitness is coming so is the sitting and associated impulsion. Hopefully as that improves the toe wearing might also improve.

It makes sense to associate this with the shape of her foot, it had never occurred to me before to put the 2 together though. I'll keep an eye on it and see how it goes, if the shoes have to go back on it's not a problem.

Thanks for the info, very useful :)
 
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