Barefoot - insurance implications?

C

chestnut cob

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 November 2004
Messages
14,992
Location
Shropshire
community.webshots.com
I am sort of toying with the idea of having my horse's shoes taken off and going barefoot/unshod / whatever you want to call it, for various reasons. I've chatted to a few people about it and all have recommended using a UKHNCP trimmer rather than a farrier. Upon checking my insurance policy booklet now, I found the following condition:

Feet should be regularly trimmed and balanced by a REGISTERED FARRIER

It got me wondering how many people out there are using a trimmer, in breach of their insurance contract? And how many actually realise?

I know very little about the whole thing but it seems that a large number of those with barefoot horses believe a farrier can't or won't trim a barefoot horse who is working. I know that my farrier won't as he believes the only horses who can cope without shoes are natives who only work in an arena or retired horses who never leave the field (I don't want to get into a debate about that - as a farrier, he does a great job but I think is just not open to different ways of doing things, which is his prerogative). So, knowing that my farrier doesn't think my horse could cope without shoes, I wouldn't be able to use him if I do decide to have my horse's shoes removed. That means I need to find a trimmer, but I am prevented from doing so by my insurance policy.

So...is there such a thing as a registered farrier who also deals with barefoot horses, ie not one who just trims retired horses who live in fields 24/7? And can anyone recommend such a person in the West Mids / Shropshire / North Staffs area?

Thanks :)
 
I was wondering this last week when we were discussing who does our trims on here (mine is the farrier so no bother for me) but I will follow with interest the answer!
 
I know at least four farriers who trim barefoot horses, never known one who didn't. May I ask who your insurance is with as I must admit to not having noticed that in mine.
 
I don't think I've heard of a farrier who would not trim a working horse. Some of them may be rather old school in the opinions, though I have found younger farriers are more aware of the benefits of taking shoes off and keeping horse au natural. It doesn't work for all horses but a good farrier would be able to explain the pro's and con's on a case by case basis.

Good on the insurance companies I say. Using an unregistered farrier risks all sorts of things going wrong with the horse feet and limbs.
 
My farrier is happy to trim bare hooves - during the time I've been using him I've had one fully shod, 2 shod in front and barefoot behind, one now fully barefoot, and one barefoot all her life.

He's fabulous and even suggested taking shoes off my old mare's hinds as she doesn't do so much now due to age, although we decided that as she has been fully shod for 32 years and is still sound and working, best to leave as is.

He is always open to suggestions and happy to discuss what's best for each individual horse.

I don't think he is taking on new customers at the moment though, sorry... But keep looking, I'm sure you will find someone just as good :)
 
Silverspring said:
I don't think I've heard of a farrier who would not trim a working horse. Some of them may be rather old school in the opinions, though I have found younger farriers are more aware of the benefits of taking shoes off and keeping horse au natural. It doesn't work for all horses but a good farrier would be able to explain the pro's and con's on a case by case basis.
My farrier firmly believes that all horses who work need to be shod - I was discussing it with him a couple of weeks ago. I asked about the possibility of doing it with my horse and he said he would always be foot sore without shoes. In fact, he said he feels that in order to stay sound, my horse will need to be shod up to the day he dies, even once he is retired and a field ornament.

Maybe I just need to talk to some different farriers...

Good on the insurance companies I say. Using an unregistered farrier risks all sorts of things going wrong with the horse feet and limbs.
Click to expand...

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but then again, a trimmer isn't going to be putting shoes on. There are plenty of old school horsemen who trim their own horse's feet yet have never had a day's training (I know that doesn't mean they do a good job though!)/

I suppose I just wondered why someone whose horse is barefoot (as opposed to "unshod" maybe..??) would use a trimmer rather than a farrier? Can a farrier just not do the job as well?

I am particularly interested in these stories I keep reading on here of horses who the vet and farrier had written off (usually they seem to have ringbone or navicular) yet a barefoot trimmer was able to get the horse sound and keep it that way... If someone who isn't a registered farrier can trim a horse like that and get it sound, why wouldn't a farrier consider taking the shoes off?

BTW this post isn't aimed at starting an argument, I am genuinely interested and hoping to learn something :)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
CC you need a different farrier. Mine actively encourages any horse which can go without shoes to go without shoes and I think there are plenty out there that agree with him.
 
jesstickle said:
CC you need a different farrier. Mine actively encourages any horse which can go without shoes to go without shoes and I think there are plenty out there that agree with him.
Click to expand...

I think you might be right! That is probably a more simple solution that worrying about insurance implications, though the difficulty is the politics... current farrier is the yard farrier so I can't avoid him and he is also the remedial farrier (my horse has remedial farriery) that my vet recommends...
 
LucyPriory said:
Here is a blog entry showing two horses trimmed by a farrier who markets himself as a barefoot specialist. They were both regularly lame after his visits.
Click to expand...

Thanks Lucy. This is why the whole thing seems like such a minefield to me. I'm incredibly confused by it all! It seems that I can't use just any farrier, as they won't all do it the right way. However, I can't use anyone BUT a farrier otherwise I breach the contract of my insurance policy and they won't pay out for anything in future.

They came sound after being a) allowed to recover from this approach and b) being trimmed by an experienced barefoot trimmer
Click to expand...

The only problem is that I can't use a barefoot trimmer, unless they are a reg. farrier as well... Or at least, not if I want to keep my horse insured or at least have them pay out. I can't change my insurer now either because of his age, so I have to stay with Amtrust and abide by the conditions.
 
chestnut cob said:
Thanks Lucy. This is why the whole thing seems like such a minefield to me. I'm incredibly confused by it all! It seems that I can't use just any farrier, as they won't all do it the right way. However, I can't use anyone BUT a farrier otherwise I breach the contract of my insurance policy and they won't pay out for anything in future.



The only problem is that I can't use a barefoot trimmer, unless they are a reg. farrier as well... Or at least, not if I want to keep my horse insured or at least have them pay out. I can't change my insurer now either because of his age, so I have to stay with Amtrust and abide by the conditions.
Click to expand...

I'd contact your insurance company to check on interpretation.

Also depending on your location there are some farriers who have actually take the time to train with either the UKNHCP or the AANHCP. Three of the guys I trained with used to be farriers, but chucked it in. But worry not, I won't go there today :-)
 
LucyPriory said:
I'd contact your insurance company to check on interpretation.

Also depending on your location there are some farriers who have actually take the time to train with either the UKNHCP or the AANHCP. Three of the guys I trained with used to be farriers, but chucked it in. But worry not, I won't go there today :-)
Click to expand...

I dont see that 'registered farrier' can be interpreted any other way ?!

And that may be so, but the trimmer would need to be on the farriers register currently.

Well done to OP for pointing this out, and well done to the insurance companies for being sensible enough to include this in their T&C's.
 
LucyPriory said:
Here is a blog entry showing two horses trimmed by a farrier who markets himself as a barefoot specialist. They were both regularly lame after his visits.

They came sound after being a) allowed to recover from this approach and b) being trimmed by an experienced barefoot trimmer

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/pasture-trim-is-not-high-performance.html
Click to expand...

Oh FFS! Here we go again! I am sure that I could go out and find just such a blog relating to cowboy barefoot trimmers (not suggesting all are cowboy) this is not really relevant to this thread is it. This thread is about HORSE INSURANCE and its CONDITIONS relating to the horses hooves, not the condition of the horses hooves and not who can do the best job. the words 'hijack' and 'soap box' are springing to mind now.
 
queenbee said:
Oh FFS! Here we go again! I am sure that I could go out and find just such a blog relating to cowboy barefoot trimmers (not suggesting all are cowboy) this is not really relevant to this thread is it. This thread is about HORSE INSURANCE and its CONDITIONS relating to the horses hooves, not the condition of the horses hooves and not who can do the best job. the words 'hijack' and 'soap box' are springing to mind now.
Click to expand...

It's the weekend and no time for letting yourself get riled up QB. I'm going to start sending you warnings about barefoot posts so you can prepare yourself before stumbling across them!
 
jesstickle said:
It's the weekend and no time for letting yourself get riled up QB. I'm going to start sending you warnings about barefoot posts so you can prepare yourself before stumbling across them!
Click to expand...

tee hee! :D It's not the threads per say that I have a problem its just that a hell of a lot of people see to sit either one end of the sodding see-saw or the other, arguing that all farriers are better than crappy BFTs or on the other side that all BFT's are godlike and farriers are jumped up cowboys who know nothing about horses. I must admit that I do have a hard time accepting the short amount of time that a trimmer trains versus the wealth of equine knowledge that they claim to posess and would prefer to know that they had a ore substantial training programme than they do, but I do not disregard them. I know of many professionals in the horsey world that are incredibly tallented and a font of knowledge who have had no formal training at all and have for the most part learnt fro th heart and experience. I just get piddled off by the extremests on here.

I should just face it, I am a grouchy cow :D
 
I was with AmTrust when I took a horse that was in the middle of an insurance claim with them barefoot. I spoke to them & informed them that I would no longer be using a farrier they where fine about it.

I would just ring them though.

On another note can we stop the Farriers / BFT argument now it's getting very boring.
 
Interesting that the insurance companies talk about registered farriers in their conditions. Knowing how slippery most of the companies are when it comes to claims, and taking into account how slow they are to keep up with advances and improvements in horse keeping and welfare, this should be fun for a few years yet.
 
Chestnut cob are you allowed to use another farrier at your yard? If so then just have a ring round at some other farriers. I'm sure you will find one that has no problem with trimming a barefoot horse.

I've just taken the shoes of mine and stuck with my farrier, hes ace. I did consider a barefoot trimmer but couldnt see the point if my farrier could do the job! Hes been 100% supportive, given me advice on diet, exercise etc etc.

Also - does your lad have back shoes on at the moment? Maybe start with taking them off first so he isnt footy all round to start with!
 
Interesting - does anyone know what NFU's take on it is.
I am using a farrier to trim my horse at the moment but if he moved out of the area I wouldn't really be happy to use one of the other ones I know in the area and might look for a trimmer.
I think a way round would be to get a farrier to check your horse's feet say once or twice a year so a qualified person has given them the OK to satisfy the insurance company.
 
queenbee said:
tee hee! :D It's not the threads per say that I have a problem its just that a hell of a lot of people see to sit either one end of the sodding see-saw or the other, arguing that all farriers are better than crappy BFTs or on the other side that all BFT's are godlike and farriers are jumped up cowboys who know nothing about horses. I must admit that I do have a hard time accepting the short amount of time that a trimmer trains versus the wealth of equine knowledge that they claim to posess and would prefer to know that they had a ore substantial training programme than they do, but I do not disregard them. I know of many professionals in the horsey world that are incredibly tallented and a font of knowledge who have had no formal training at all and have for the most part learnt fro th heart and experience. I just get piddled off by the extremests on here.

I should just face it, I am a grouchy cow :D
Click to expand...

There was some really good info about professional trimmers' training and accreditation on a very recent thread, you should have a search and read it. It would answer your concerns.
 
Maybe once these Lantra qualifications are up and running the insurance companies will revise their policies?
TBH - I don't like that clause at all, its nannying, surely as an owner I am best placed to decide whats best for my horse? Same as them insisting that they're ridden in a bit, my old mare was for more dangerous on the road in a bit than in her hackamore.
Sounds to me like rules made up by someone non-horsy sitting behind a desk with a copy of the pony club manual!

Sorry - rant over.

Good point raised though S!
 
maggiesmum said:
Maybe once these Lantra qualifications are up and running the insurance companies will revise their policies?
TBH - I don't like that clause at all, its nannying, surely as an owner I am best placed to decide whats best for my horse?
Click to expand...

The The Lantra NOS is a bit like the NVQ scheme, which are being introduced to farriers apprenticeships and the barefoot trimming folk.
They sure don't mean that someone doing the NOS is qualified as a professional. Bit like saying anyone can be a nurse, vet, accountant or farrier by doing an NOS alone.
The trimmers can do NOS schemes but still doesn't equal the training of a farrier.

You may know whats best for your horse. Its the Insurance company'd perogative to decide if they agree and meet the claim.
 
I have just checked my NFU policy for this year and it does not mention having to use farrier, dentist or vaccinations (other than saying it won't pay a claim related to tetanus if you have not vaccinated your horse against tetanus). It says you must take reasonable care to avoid accident, illness or damage and do everything reasonable to look after your horse. However there is no definition of "reasonable" so that could be open to interpretation!

I don't think that would work as if it says they have to be regularly trimmed and balanced by a registered farrier, once or twice a year would probably not be considered regular and the farrier would have to do some work beyond checking.

criso said:
Interesting - does anyone know what NFU's take on it is.
I think a way round would be to get a farrier to check your horse's feet say once or twice a year so a qualified person has given them the OK to satisfy the insurance company.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top