Barefoot - insurance implications?

chestnut cob said:
Feet should be regularly trimmed and balanced by a REGISTERED FARRIER
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Note the terminology. Should rather than must. Ring them up to double check but I'm pretty sure they would be fine about you using a fully insured barefoot trimmer.

Who's your farrier btw? - I'm in Shropshire and I have hard working barefoot endurance horses. He'd be very welcome to come and look at my horses and their feet and see them working - might even change his mind!
 
It says regular not frequent and f you had a retired horse turned away you would not be expected to have it trimmed at 6 week intervals.

Farrier couldn't come out because of the sbow and saw no problem lkeaving us 11 weeks this time. He's coming tomorrow and the amount he does is so minimal, you can see ge feels guilty charging the £15 he charging.

He's costing NFU less than he's ever cost them so hopefully they'll just be glad about that.
 
I suppose the problem is definitions in lots of cases. my definition of regular trimming would not be twice a year whereas as others think the twice yearly was regular.

If I had a horse turned away I would still want to get their hooves trimmed every six weeks as they still grow as the same rate as a horse in work and they might not get worn down so much if they are not moving about on concrete or abrasive surfaces but then I guess it depends on the horse as some might have slow growing hooves.

I think would be starting to panic if I had to leave Homey for 11 weeks without farrier but then his hooves grow quickly, like his fur and his tummy! and he is on a 5 week rotation and he is shod on the front so would not want hooves growing over shoes!

criso said:
It says regular not frequent and f you had a retired horse turned away you would not be expected to have it trimmed at 6 week intervals.

Farrier couldn't come out because of the sbow and saw no problem lkeaving us 11 weeks this time. He's coming tomorrow and the amount he does is so minimal, you can see ge feels guilty charging the £15 he charging.

He's costing NFU less than he's ever cost them so hopefully they'll just be glad about that.
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my 9yr old is barefoot and has been for the last 3yrs. My farrier has trimmed him the whole time and does a fantastic job. He has never once tried to convince me to put shoes on him. This is no retired oldie, he did 2 full seasons with the draghunt and was out competing in dressage every fortnight during the summer, plus lots of hacking on roads, sponsored rides etc. No way would I use a trimmer - farrier is the only person ever going to come near my horse's feet. He trained for 4yrs not a few weeks/months. If my farrier wasn't open to the benefits of barefoot I'd find one who was.
 
SO1 said:
If I had a horse turned away I would still want to get their hooves trimmed every six weeks as they still grow as the same rate as a horse in work
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Strictly speaking the growth changes with the amount of work you do so a horse without shoes but not in work wouldn't grow as fast as one doing alot of work on hard surfaces though you would have to be careful when you first turned out until they adapt to a reduced workload.

Anyway I wasn't suggesting that the horse was only trimmed twice a year but that if you have a trimmer you are happy with then you also get a farrier out from time to time to satisfy the terms of the insurance or change insurance companies ;) The dictionary definition of regular is "at uniform or fixed intervals" so technically you are fulfilling their terms.

Personally I would never leave a shod horse more than 6 weeks as not only does the shoe overgrow but the foot balance would be off and the shoe gets loose but I was looking at Frankie's feet today and the backs don't need touching at all and the fronts just need a little tidy, he does so much work he more or less self trims but I get the farrier to have a check when he's doing someone else.
 
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OK, thanks for all of the replies :)

I didn't want it to descend into an argument about barefoot vs shod, though I do appreciate there are good farriers out there who do a good job of trimming barefoot horses, and good trimmers out there too. I also know there are bad farriers and bad trimmers. Just like not all Doctors are good, but I would like to think the majority of all professions are OK. In a way LucyPriory's first post is exactly what concerns me - that if I do this and have to stick with a farrier because of my insurance policy, I end up with someone who will only do a pasture trim that may not suit my horse.

Jesstickle - he has lateral extensions behind because he has spavins in both hocks. Farrier thinks his heels are too low to ever manage without shoes, and that the horn quality isn't strong enough. And yes, I had also noticed the clauses about teeth. Mine says teeth and tet jabs must be done annually.

MrDarcy - I don't want to name names re. the farrier, that's not why I came on here. He has done a fabulous job in terms of how my horse's feet are looking now (compared to how they were when I got him) and he is very good with him as he can be a bit tricky to shoe. My post isn't about rubbishing a particular farrier, it was to ask what other options there might be out there. I hope you understand :) However, I would love to see your horse's feet! And to know who trims them!

dressagecrazy - if you read the replies on the thread, did you get Amtrust to put in writing that they were OK with the horse going barefoot? Did you start using a trimmer instead of a farrier, and get this OK'd by Amtrust?

treaclebeastie - yes I could use another though it might make things tricky, but that's neither here nor there. I am debating asking my usual farrier to leave the backs off next time he comes to see how we get on. How did your farrier trim the backs when they came off? Mine says that working horses wear their hooves down too quickly to manage without shoes. ATM I'm not really even doing that much roadwork with him to warrant them anyway, so I can try to approach it with him from that angle... ie please leave the backs off, he isn't doing the work to bother with them but they can go back on at a later date if required for his workload. How much work are you doing with your girl now?

I would be interested to hear from people who have horses which had problems before they went barefoot, or those who a more traditional farrier told would never manage without shoes. Just out of curiosity really. I'm a scientist so I want to look into it in quite a bit of detail before I make my mind up so I'm interested in everyone's opinions :)
 
chestnut cob said:
I would be interested to hear from people who have horses which had problems before they went barefoot, or those who a more traditional farrier told would never manage without shoes. Just out of curiosity really.
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That was mine. My farrier, vet and physio all thought I was mad as he had "typical TB feet" :-long toes, underrun heels, weak crumbly horn.
He was rehabbed for me so was out of sight and came back with new feet. My farrier now struggles to trim him the horn is so hard and I think the vet thinks he has witnessed a spontaneous miracle.
 
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treaclebeastie - yes I could use another though it might make things tricky, but that's neither here nor there. I am debating asking my usual farrier to leave the backs off next time he comes to see how we get on. How did your farrier trim the backs when they came off? Mine says that working horses wear their hooves down too quickly to manage without shoes. ATM I'm not really even doing that much roadwork with him to warrant them anyway, so I can try to approach it with him from that angle... ie please leave the backs off, he isn't doing the work to bother with them but they can go back on at a later date if required for his workload. How much work are you doing with your girl now?

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Well I took the hinds off about a year ago when she was in and out of work due to injury, They went back on a few times but I switched to a different farrier who does remedial and barefoot and NB etc etc and we took them off for good. If you can remember she has very flat feet with lots of flare. Anyway she was footy over stones for quite a while (the ones down the track at nics!) but she got better over a few weeks. Its only been the last 6 months where I have realised she isnt bothered by any stones with her back feet ( I have moved yards and farrier in that time) and I had a good old look at them and notcied how the flare has pretty much gone, they are in great shape, good hoof quality and are regaining the concave sole. So I decided to try the fronts. The day after her feet were roasting, her legs were puffy and she didnt look particularly comfy on a hard surface but now a week and half later, we have been on a hours road hack, her feet are normal temp, theres no puffiness and she is more free and forward. She is still footy over small stones but thats is getting better astonishingly quickly. I try to avoid as much as poss and try to keep her to verges but she opts to walk on the hard surface! I'm going to try and keep her this way though i might get some boots for longer hacks depending on how she copes over the next few months.

Couldnt tell you how he trims them as wouldnt know the diff between a pasture trim or otherwise but he doesnt cut away at the sole and they are rasped round the edge - maybe i should take some pics!

The thing is, as I've always understood, the more road work you do the better - it hardens up the foot quicker, its a nice smooth hard surface - its the stony buts that are hard to negotiate. I think the hoof wall grows quicker without a shoe on and eventually the growth should balance out the wear though i am going to take it easy to start with. I am working her as normal but with maybe more schooling than hacking for the next month. school 4 times a week, hack once or twice?
 
criso said:
That was mine. My farrier, vet and physio all thought I was mad as he had "typical TB feet" :-long toes, underrun heels, weak crumbly horn.
He was rehabbed for me so was out of sight and came back with new feet. My farrier now struggles to trim him the horn is so hard and I think the vet thinks he has witnessed a spontaneous miracle.
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How long was he away for and how long did it take him to come sound without shoes?
 
chestnut cob said:
How long was he away for and how long did it take him to come sound without shoes?
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He was away for just over 4 months - bear in mind he had been lame with soft tissue strain for 18 months before we took the shoes off. He was level quite quickly and from there the work was built up gradually but we waited 6 months for a full hoof to grow before really schooling and jumping.

If you go to Rockley Farm's blog, search for Frankie for the full story, there are pictures and video clips there.

In terms of surfaces he could cope with, it's difficult to say as it's such a gradual thing. One day you realise instead of keeping to the soft bit at the edge you are stomping down the middle. He was fine on grass and tarmac pretty soon and doing road work helped. With him getting his diet right and balancing the minerals to his pasture was crucial and that helped the hoof quality.

BTW the farrier came to trim today and was very happy with his feet which he said just needed a tidy.
 
horserider said:
The trimmers can do NOS schemes but still doesn't equal the training of a farrier.
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Because they're not training to be a farrier! Bit like comparing a GP and a surgeon, they both have medical knowledge but have done different training for different jobs!
A trimmers training can never be equal to a farriers because a trimmer has no need to learn how to make, shape and fit shoes.

It might be the insurance companies prerogative to include whatever clause they wish but its then my prerogative to insure my horse with a different company too!
 
maggiesmum said:
It might be the insurance companies prerogative to include whatever clause they wish but its then my prerogative to insure my horse with a different company too!
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Quite. Might be prudent to check that whoever is paid to trim the feet has qualifications acceptable to that company. Some trimmers are less trained than others and may not be accepted in the UK.
 
criso said:
Anyway I wasn't suggesting that the horse was only trimmed twice a year but that if you have a trimmer you are happy with then you also get a farrier out from time to time to satisfy the terms of the insurance or change insurance companies ;) The dictionary definition of regular is "at uniform or fixed intervals" so technically you are fulfilling their terms.
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Good grief! I wouldn't let a farrier trim in between my trimmer's visits. :-)

The sensible advice is given above. Check a barefoot trimmer's credentials before using them. Check your insurance policy, not just for daft clauses about using farriers, but for any other daft clauses you can find.
 
Tinypony said:
The sensible advice is given above. Check a barefoot trimmer's credentials before using them. Check your insurance policy, not just for daft clauses about using farriers, but for any other daft clauses you can find.
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I don't think it IS a daft clause. Look at it from the insurance company's POV... you decide to go barefoot and use a crap trimmer who cripples your horse. The insurance company then has to pay out for treatment to get your horse right again. Someone posted earlier in the thread to say they are with the same insurer as me and when they went barefoot, they discussed it with them and they agreed to it. So, if nothing else, that clause makes people *think* about who is trimming their horse's feet. I know most people would look into a trimmer's qualifications and experience but some won't - why should the insurer pay out because you use a charlatan to trim your horse? In my case, if I decide to take my horse barefoot and I want to use a trimmer instead of a farrier, I will discuss it with my insurer and if they agree, have them put that in writing.

FWIW I don't believe there are any other "daft" clauses in my policy. They are common sense clauses, ie get your horse's teeth done and keep his vacc's up to date.
 
But if you have an ongoing claim or have made alot of claims changing your insurance is easier said than done.

Tinypony I was thinking more of getting a friendly farrier to "check" your horses feet if you are stuck in a situation where you can't change insurers and have a trimmer you are very happy with just or are trimming your own horses to keep the insurer happy.

My insurance company paid a claim which went right up to the limit to fix foot problems when under the care of registered farriers, it was a trimmer that fixed him for me and gave us a claim free year.
I understand why they might put that clause in but it's no guarantee it will save them on claims.
 
The clause assumes that all farriers are good ones though, a few years back 3 horses on our yard (one of them mine) all shod by the same farrier went lame within a couple of months of each other with the exact same problem, what are the chances?
So - £3k (approx) each in treatments plus one didn't come sound so they paid out loss of use on her.
There are plenty of crap trimmers and crap farriers about.

I wonder how long it will take for insurance companies to catch on to places like Rockley Farm and start refusing to pay out loss of use until the barefoot avenue has been explored too???
 
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