Barefoot issues with grazing quality,tips please!!

[devonlass]

Was going to respond to a post of cptrayes on another thread,but decided was hi-jacking rather a lot so thought best to start new thread.

I have two horses both barefoot,both do well most of the time.

My spotty lad who has been barefoot pretty much his whole life (he's 6 yrs),has great feet 80% of the time,but suffers quite badly from changes in grazing.He' very sensitive and it shows in his feet very easily.Excellent doer BTW so has to be restricted and muzzled a lot of the time,so it's not too much grass that's the issue.

Seems to be more quality that's the problem.I am on cattle pasture (beef not dairy,but not sure if there's a difference??),and the land is very low lying so always damp which means always green and growing!!
I can manage him *most* of the time but we always have one or two points of the year where his feet just fall apart and this year (probably due to the climate??) has been the worst,holes in the white line,dropped soles and just general rubbish feet compared to how they normally are.I have had to use boots to keep him comfortable working far more than usual.

It seems to happen when i put him on a new part of the pasture,and although I try and introduce it slowly and get other horse to eat it down a bit first etc doesn't always make any difference.

So any tips on what I can change?? I have quite a lot of free rein over my land that i use from april-october but am limited by funds and the fact cannot use any type of machinery on it.I cannot change anything on my winter grazing unfortunately and that is also grazed by cattle during the summer,not sure if that makes a difference??

I have no stables or access to one so keeping him in is not an option.

I do have a concrete bottomed pen in my winter field,and i do keep him there at times with a hay net (soaked) when feel he needs to come off the grass or when his feet fall apart in the winter (this has only happened one year but they are still bad now,and due to go into winter field in next few days so might be the case again this year as well).Only issue with this is my cob get's VERY anxious when they are seperated but he's also a complete bully so can't pen them together either,ho hum this will be fun this year not lol

Just to add as well that this is also more tricky as cob although a good doer generally he drops condition easily and quickly if conditions not ideal.His feet ironically are great and do not seem to be affected no matter what the grazing conditions,despite the fact I only took him barefoot a few months ago after years in shoes

So sorry for all the waffle just trying to give a complete picture.Any tips on what I can do either to his management or to the land within reason to help stop these blips with his feet??

Such a shame as his feet when normal are great,he goes miles now barefoot,and we hardly need the boots,despite all our riding being roadwork (and much of that stony lanes and tracks,no 'off road' riding at all sadly),but when he get's these blips they are awful in comparison and he has to be booted or limited to tarmac for riding.

My trimmer is out during the week,so will be of course having a chat with her,but thought it would be good to get some other thoughts and experiences,as know there are many of you very knowledgable on here about this kind of thing

ETA:His is not fed any hard feed apart from some molasses free chaff to put a vit and min supp in.I tried him on cal mag but he wouldn't eat it,going to try that again soon though.

*disclaimer* I would ask that no one suggests getting him shod,I appreciate some people think this is an answer to everything but I do not share that view so please keep it to yourself,many thanx

 

[tallyho!]

The best thing I can suggest for you right now, is to get your pasture analysed. You don't say what vit n min supplement he gets but maybe there is either a shortfall, or too much of something. You should try mag ox instead. It is more palatable. Give him a detox too in case his liver or kidneys are sluggish. I always detox mine in spring and autumn after worming.

About being footy, use boots. He shouldn't be made to struggle and barefoot is not about making a horse do stuff it can't.

Do you have a trimmer? I don't know about other trimmers but mine is very knowledgeable in metabolism and nutrition and can almost tell me in an instant what my horse needs or doesn't need.

My appy did have a sensitivity to alfalfa, so just in case your chaff is alfalfa based, it could be the thing tipping the balance.

Have you tried Phoenix horse forum? You should ask on there, so many knowledgeable people and I think many metabolism specialists too.

 

[devonlass]

The best thing I can suggest for you right now, is to get your pasture analysed. You don't say what vit n min supplement he gets but maybe there is either a shortfall, or too much of something. You should try mag ox instead. It is more palatable. Give him a detox too in case his liver or kidneys are sluggish. I always detox mine in spring and autumn after worming.

About being footy, use boots. He shouldn't be made to struggle and barefoot is not about making a horse do stuff it can't.

Do you have a trimmer? I don't know about other trimmers but mine is very knowledgeable in metabolism and nutrition and can almost tell me in an instant what my horse needs or doesn't need.

My appy did have a sensitivity to alfalfa, so just in case your chaff is alfalfa based, it could be the thing tipping the balance.

Have you tried Phoenix horse forum? You should ask on there, so many knowledgeable people and I think many metabolism specialists too.

Thanks for that

I am pretty sure i am a member on the other forum,but can't for the life of my remember my log in details,but will get on to that.Wanted to post here anyway though as know there are a few of you that know your stuff,and are I come on here regularly so know will remember to check thread!!

Onto what you asked.He has a naf general purpose supp.Not sure he needs it really and only give minimum dose so shouldn't be overloading.Pasture although rich grazing does have lot's of other plant life which I also try and cultivate so *shouldn't* be too lacking in stuff,but appreciate the grass is the main factor.I believe our area is known to have decent grazing that isn't generally quite balanced,but hard to know for sure of course.

I will look into mag ox.Think I avoided in the past due to expense and it being so pure I was told it's easy to give too much?? Also when he was briefly on the cal mag (was a real battle though and not sure he ever ate much of the feed was in),he was even more spooky than usual,weird i know as it's a calmer,but he was and quite honestly he's the spookiest twit at the best of times so that wasn't good.Was worried the mag ox will have an even more pronounced effect??

I have the best trimmer in the world UKNHCP and she's not only a brilliant trimmer she's an amazing horse woman,my boys love her even the spooky spotty twit lol.
We have discussed the problems when I called her in a panic when his soles dropped and she came out to calm my very flustered self.She felt at that time the best thing was to keep working as long as he was comfortable and get him off the grass that was causing the problem.
I did as she said,but have not seen her since to update (she is coming out wednesday),will be sure to be asking her thoughts when do see her.Never hurts to get others opinions though and is so much knowledge and experience on here

I always boot if he's footy,and sometimes when he's not as I'm precious about him,but that is really only a short term solution and of course not really ideal for his overall foot health and growth etc.
I'm just wondering if there's some underlying thing I'm missing or something I should/could be doing land management wise or with his management??

My chaff is indeed alfalfa,hadn't really considered that as an issue,but if it was that wouldn't he be like it all the time rather than just periodically??

Many thanx again for the reply,it is much appreciated

 

[Oberon]

I've sent you a pm with some dietary suggestions.

The ingredients of the supplement you are feeding.....

" Wheatfeed, Dicalcium phosphate, Maize, Brewers' yeast, Whey protein powder, Sodium chloride, Whey powder, Magnesium oxide."

I can't see the copper and zinc specs and these are the two minerals that are consistently found lacking in forage analysis' - so they would be the most needed in terms of supplementation.

 

[TwoStroke]

I'd second getting a grazing analysis, or at least feeding something like pro balance + which has decent levels of the key minerals needed for good hoof growth.

Could you make a track around your field & feed hay instead of grass?

 

[devonlass]

My last post BTW should read grazing that *is* generally quite balanced,not isn't

I've sent you a pm with some dietary suggestions.

I can't see the copper and zinc specs and these are the two minerals that are consistently found lacking in forage analysis' - so they would be the most needed in terms of supplementation.

Thank you very much for the PM,much appreciated

The naf supplement list the following for zinc,but can't see anything about copper.

'Zinc oxide 6000 mg Zinc' not sure if that sufficient??

I'd second getting a grazing analysis, or at least feeding something like pro balance + which has decent levels of the key minerals needed for good hoof growth.

Could you make a track around your field & feed hay instead of grass?

I will probably try the supplementation route before the analysis,simply as I would have to get both fields done and am assuming it's costly and maybe not the best time of year to get it done,or does grazing have the same properties and results year round??

I have tried the track system before,but as my summer paddock is not that big and can be very wet on the bottom part I can't have a track all the way around (when I say low lying I mean bog/flood plain literally lol),and with two of them on one half of the field just trashes it in days when we have the sort of wet weather we have had this year.Also although my spotty lad is a good doer and holds weight very well,he is not really overweight at the mo,and my other horse loses condition quite quickly so I would be worried a track would not be enough for the both of them TBH,and difficult to separate as cob get's very anxious alone.
To add to the problem though he is also a bully so can't put them in a small space together,and would have concerns about the track this time of year for this reason.Food is a big trigger for his grumpy behaviour,and if it was scarce he would be even worse than usual I suspect.

Can't do track at all in winter field,which prob makes it irrelevant for now anyway.Too big and would need miles of fencing (and as have to take it down every year when we leave is bad enough putting up what we do already!!)and also very wet,even more so with it being winter of course.

I couldn't feed hay alone as would have to do it for both,and can't keep them both off the grass completely for any length of time (pretty sure cob would go downhill fast if tried it TBH),and the costs would be rather large for two on hay 24/7.

I could as mentioned before keep spotty lad in the pen for a few hours a day with hay (assuming cob coped ok),but not sure if that would help at this stage??

Sorry that all sounds negative and obstructive is just that I know my land and the unique problems there is with it,and what I can and can't do realistically and practically.

ETA:Keep meaning to say,does anyone have any thoughts on anything I can do to the grazing in regards to fertilising (i know fertilising for extra growth and lushness is not a good idea,but am assuming it's possible to treat or enrich in other ways depending what is used??) Or when I re seed is there a particular type of seed I should look at?? I normally go for rye grasses of the hard wearing and long term type,but not sure if there a more 'diet' grass i should look at?? I only re seed in parts so much of it would still be the lush stuff that's naturally there,but something must be better than nothing.
This only applies to summer grazing though as mentioned before have no input on winter field as it used by farmer for cattle rest of year.

 

[maccachic]

Cool season grasses are best - brown top, cocks foot etc some herbs are great if you can too.

Try www.feedxl.com it will analyse what you are feeding and highly any deficencys / excesses - it should have most supplements already added others its just a metter of email thru your specs.

Pretty sure grass analysis is pretty cheap.

 

[devonlass]

Cool season grasses are best - brown top, cocks foot etc some herbs are great if you can too.

Thanks for that,but as i notice you are in NZ can I just check if those varieties grow over here in the UK?? If not do you know if we have any similar types of grasses over here that I could use??

Also I know some of the other herbs and plants that are beneficial,but always keen to hear what others suggest so any ideas you have on those would be great too

Making changes to the grazing is something i *can* do,well to a degree anyway,so any and all thoughts on this appreciated

 

[mel_s]

The problem is not your horses feet, the problem is the management of his diet. I think getting the grazing analysed is pretty pointless, as you cant change it anyway. You may be able to balance minerals etc but whether this would ultimately be enough i dont know?

Any problems in the body, show in the feet. He clearly isnt coping with the grass there. Over a long period of time this could cause serious problems, even death, so i dont think its something to be taken lightly? He could have some IR type issues?

If it were my horse i'd find somewhere else to keep him.

 

[CBFan]

The problem is not your horses feet, the problem is the management of his diet. I think getting the grazing analysed is pretty pointless, as you cant change it anyway.
.

The whole point of getting grazing analysed is to be able to balance the minerals. My latest grass analysis has been quite an eye opener and I am having to supplement much higher levels of copper and Zinc than I was just a couple of miles down the road.

OP it might be worth getting an analysis done and feed plan written for your problem boy based on your winter grazing.... then you have got 'til april to see whether it has made a difference or not and decide whether to do your summer grazing too...

But definately worth Supplementing Mag ox and you might find brewers yeast helps too.

Your pasture sounds far from ideal for your pony - I'm guessing it is quite highly fertilised which can exacerbate the problem - I know my boy is better on un-fertilised land...

 

[maccachic]

These are some good sites:

http://www.safergrass.org/

http://www.greenpet.com.au/pages/Grass-Tetany-&-Hyperkalemia-in-Horses.html

 

[devonlass]

The problem is not your horses feet, the problem is the management of his diet. I think getting the grazing analysed is pretty pointless, as you cant change it anyway. You may be able to balance minerals etc but whether this would ultimately be enough i dont know?

Any problems in the body, show in the feet. He clearly isnt coping with the grass there. Over a long period of time this could cause serious problems, even death, so i dont think its something to be taken lightly? He could have some IR type issues?

If it were my horse i'd find somewhere else to keep him.

I am aware the problem isn't his feet,as mentioned he generally has really good feet,and I agree the main factor here is the grazing.Perhaps I wasn't clear in my other posts,but I CAN change my grazing within reason and funds allowing in my summer paddock,but can't change anything in my winter field as the farmer just very kindly let's me borrow that one as my paddock get's so wet it get's trashed in winter.

I am hoping that adding a supplement might help,but like you say it might not make much of a difference.Probably worth a try though??

I do agree that being in a less than ideal environment might not do him any favours and is certainly having an impact of his hoof quality,but I think suggesting it might cause his death is a bit OTT at this stage.
I don't think he has any other issues that would suggest a condition like insulin resistance,but i will bear it in mind.

Moving him is not an option.He's currently 500yds from my front door and I would rather deal with occasional foot problems than move him away from home.I will at least try everything else first before uprooting him and my other horse.Plus as I am in an area of rich pasture type land i am guessing anywhere else i put him might be similar?? Unless you are suggesting I relocate as well lol

OP it might be worth getting an analysis done and feed plan written for your problem boy based on your winter grazing.... then you have got 'til april to see whether it has made a difference or not and decide whether to do your summer grazing too...

But definately worth Supplementing Mag ox and you might find brewers yeast helps too.

Your pasture sounds far from ideal for your pony - I'm guessing it is quite highly fertilised which can exacerbate the problem - I know my boy is better on un-fertilised land...

That sounds like a good plan,but a couple of questions if you don't mind?? As it is winter and grass will be lesser quality etc,is it still worth getting an analysis done?? Would it not be different results than in say spring or summer,or does it not matter what the time of year the analysis stays the same??

My pasture is not ideal at all for my spotty lad,makes him fat apart from anything else He has been a good weight for most of this year,but it has taken heroic efforts on mine and his part!!

It's not fertilised though,not even the winter grazing (expect for natural fertilisation by the cows!!),it's just very low lying so very damp and grows all year round unless very cold.It is also of a very rich quality it seems,i am guessing due to the types of grasses planted originally with cattle in mind?? Or maybe not maybe it's just because of the locality and constant moisture and warmth,whatever the case the grass is always abundant (I hardly ever feed hay even in winter as have so much good grass) and lush.

I was actually wondering whether I should fertilise,but not so much for growth as to put something back or something new in?? No idea as clueless about fertilising TBH,but i *think* there are various things can add to the land and was wondering if would help??

Will look into supps in regard to the mag ox and brewers yeast,and many thanx for your reply,it is much appreciated

Maccachic-will check out those sites,many thanx

 

[LucyPriory]

Until very recently I had a similar problem. My uber sensitive horse had the choice of completely the wrong sort of grazing or being stabled 24/7.

I found that a double dose of Yea Sacc 1026 for the very worst times, mag ox appropriate for her weight and diet, with table salt made an appreciable difference.

Alfalfa alone will make her lame (and affects her temperament very negatively).

So you may have some room for tweaks which might help you.

And cal mag is mag ox, just the rustic version. Unless you really overdo it, your horse should be able to excrete excess. It is something that generally needs daily supplementation. Many horses will notice the effects of their human forgetting after just a few days.

 

[CBFan]

I am aware the problem isn't his feet,as mentioned he generally has really good feet,and I agree the main factor here is the grazing.Perhaps I wasn't clear in my other posts,but I CAN change my grazing within reason and funds allowing in my summer paddock,but can't change anything in my winter field as the farmer just very kindly let's me borrow that one as my paddock get's so wet it get's trashed in winter.

I am hoping that adding a supplement might help,but like you say it might not make much of a difference.Probably worth a try though??

I do agree that being in a less than ideal environment might not do him any favours and is certainly having an impact of his hoof quality,but I think suggesting it might cause his death is a bit OTT at this stage.
I don't think he has any other issues that would suggest a condition like insulin resistance,but i will bear it in mind.

Moving him is not an option.He's currently 500yds from my front door and I would rather deal with occasional foot problems than move him away from home.I will at least try everything else first before uprooting him and my other horse.Plus as I am in an area of rich pasture type land i am guessing anywhere else i put him might be similar?? Unless you are suggesting I relocate as well lol




That sounds like a good plan,but a couple of questions if you don't mind?? As it is winter and grass will be lesser quality etc,is it still worth getting an analysis done?? Would it not be different results than in say spring or summer,or does it not matter what the time of year the analysis stays the same??

My pasture is not ideal at all for my spotty lad,makes him fat apart from anything else He has been a good weight for most of this year,but it has taken heroic efforts on mine and his part!!

It's not fertilised though,not even the winter grazing (expect for natural fertilisation by the cows!!),it's just very low lying so very damp and grows all year round unless very cold.It is also of a very rich quality it seems,i am guessing due to the types of grasses planted originally with cattle in mind?? Or maybe not maybe it's just because of the locality and constant moisture and warmth,whatever the case the grass is always abundant (I hardly ever feed hay even in winter as have so much good grass) and lush.

I was actually wondering whether I should fertilise,but not so much for growth as to put something back or something new in?? No idea as clueless about fertilising TBH,but i *think* there are various things can add to the land and was wondering if would help??

Will look into supps in regard to the mag ox and brewers yeast,and many thanx for your reply,it is much appreciated

Maccachic-will check out those sites,many thanx

Yes there will be seasonal fluctuations in the mineral profile of your forage but having an analysis should at the very least shed light on any general deficiencies and imbalances.

I would NOT fertilise under any circumstances. I think it is the lushness of the grass that may be the problem. Is there any way that for future years you could fence off a corner of the field in the spring so that it isn't grazed by the cattle and so is allowed to grow long and wilt into virtually hay, which you then graze in the winter? this MAY help as it will be less lush, and more fibrous.... just an idea...

 

[maccachic]

Fertilising could be an option if there are imbalances in your soil / grass.

I believe its mineral imbalances more than high calorie grasses that causes the biggest amount of issues for horses. If everything is in balance (Vitamins, Minerals, Protein and Calories) and if your horse is healthy everything should be sweet.

The second link I posted is on high potassuim in stressed grass which causes imbalances in magnesium and other minerals - the key I got of this is to supplement mag as needed when the grass is going thru stressed periods (additional mag is to counteract the high potassium / low mag in the grass to keep everything in balance hence no reason to feed when this isn't occuring, as you cause other imbalances) provide free access to loose salt as intake is better than a lick (and most likely cheaper too). Decrease calories can help with energtic horse and provide hay/fibre which help soak up fructans as well. Also reduce anything with potassium in it (Apple cider vinegar / lucerne has potassium so do lots of other things).

When they hit the salt / start acting weird = grass is stressed.

I don't believe taking horses off grass is the solution and think this may lead to other issues and increases expenses - yes in extreme cases maybe but your normal horse I don't believe so.

 

[devonlass]

I found that a double dose of Yea Sacc 1026 for the very worst times, mag ox appropriate for her weight and diet, with table salt made an appreciable difference.

And cal mag is mag ox, just the rustic version. Unless you really overdo it, your horse should be able to excrete excess. It is something that generally needs daily supplementation. Many horses will notice the effects of their human forgetting after just a few days.

Thanks for that

Have just ordered some mag ox,and had already decided to add a small amount of loose salt to feed,so will be interesting to see how that works out.

I am also going to try the dengie healthy hooves feed to add the supps to (currently use the hi-fi molasses free),unless anyone knows of any problem with that choice of feed??

The cal mag he just wouldn't eat before.Tried it because as you say is the more basic version and so cheaper,but he didn't like the taste and wouldn't eat the feed with it in.
i may give it another go if the mag ox proves successful and want to feed magnesium long term.

Yes there will be seasonal fluctuations in the mineral profile of your forage but having an analysis should at the very least shed light on any general deficiencies and imbalances.

Is there any way that for future years you could fence off a corner of the field in the spring so that it isn't grazed by the cattle and so is allowed to grow long and wilt into virtually hay, which you then graze in the winter? this MAY help as it will be less lush, and more fibrous.... just an idea...

On the grazing situation,the cattle do not graze my summer paddock,that is for my sole use.They do however use my winter field but in the summer if that makes sense?? Fencing any of it off is not an option sadly.Apart from the farmer needing all the grazing,bullocks are not careful creatures and would trash any fencing I put up in a matter of days I suspect.

Can you tell me how i go about getting my grazing analysed,and any tips for who to use etc?? Not something i have done before so any help appreciated

Fertilising could be an option if there are imbalances in your soil / grass.

I believe its mineral imbalances more than high calorie grasses that causes the biggest amount of issues for horses. If everything is in balance (Vitamins, Minerals, Protein and Calories) and if your horse is healthy everything should be sweet.

I don't believe taking horses off grass is the solution and think this may lead to other issues and increases expenses - yes in extreme cases maybe but your normal horse I don't believe so.

I know it isn't going to be a popular choice with everyone but I have decided to possibly fertilise come spring.Not for richness,but for balance like you said.I suspect my land is a bit stressed,but at the same time still quite lush,and am guessing this is not a good combination and may need some levelling out so to speak.Still investigating different types of fertilisers,but do think it might help.

Very interesting thoughts about the potassium,going to look into that further before commencing any new diet.

Is not really an option for me to take off the grass for any length of time anyway,and I'll be honest leaving him on is going to be far easier.Have made up my pen just in case he needs to come off the grazing for a few days,but so far seems to be managing ok,fingers crossed stays that way!!

Thanks again all for the thoughts,is a great help

 

[CBFan]

Youre better off sticking to the Mollases free than switching to healthy hooves which contains some mollasses. Really though, neither are ideal and I'd be inclined to try him on some fast fibre if possible.

Re forage analysis. Lots of companies do it but I use forage plus.

I understood your grazing situation... I just wondered if there was a possibility of fencing of part of your winter grazing in the summer so that it wasn't grazed by the cattle but this is obviously not the case...