Barefoot mafia please...

My section D's feet need careful management otherwise they crack and crumble and she tends to throw shoes.Our farrier who would be happy to recommend barefoot if that is the most appropriate intervention,says the mare needs shoes or she will have no feet.I feed happy hoof,fast fibre,micronised linseed and magnesium.Her coat has always been very glossy so guess she absorbs nutrients fairly well,but her hooves do not always seem to benefit like her coat.I would love to show some pics but afraid i need to master photobucket first.One of the farriers says wet conditions cause more infection and this affects the hooves,but i find the dry weather is worse for my mare.She has never been lame like the OP horse though.My mares feet have improved considerably and she can generally keep a set of shoes on for the whole 6 weeks now.
 
Sounds like thin soles would get a set of shoes on. Some horses just need them, the idioligy of barefoot is sound the reality often isn't literally .
 
Horseycrazy said:
I have a section D fed the same was a bit footy, just broke and got his first shoes now he is just fine. I think some horses go better with shoes.:) he is 3
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Let me guess. Your section D eats plenty of grass?


Sounds like thin soles would get a set of shoes on. Some horses just need them, the idioligy of barefoot is sound the reality often isn't literally .
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Don't you think it might be sensible to try and find out why the hoof quality is so bad first, before rushing to bung on shoes to mask the problem?

I find it very strange that someone with so little experience of getting a footie horse sound without shoes on bothers to post on a thread entitled "Barefoot Mafia please"
 
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Horseycrazy said:
I have a section D fed the same was a bit footy, just broke and got his first shoes now he is just fine. I think some horses go better with shoes.:) he is 3
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:eek: He is better with shoes because you just lifted his weight onto the shoe so he can't feel the ground. He is quite young to have shoes on, his feet will still be growing but not now they are clamped into a shoe. This means his body will still grow and gain weight but his feet will stay like a three year olds and will likely begin to show stresses and strain of trying to carry a full up mature body around. Sorry but this is fact and the cause of many lameness related premature ending of a lovely horse/pony.
 
Horseycrazy said:
Who said I was inexperienced i would assume you assumed that and also you would be wrong he does not get a lot of grass.
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Well unless he is fed stuff other with carbs in, or he has a metabolic illness, then there is something wrong in the diet of a 3 year old who has such poor feet that he needs to be shod. That's my experience.

What experience do you have of getting a footie horse unfootie without putting shoes on?
 
Maybe more scary that owners will just slap shoes on without finding out why. Why do they not think about it first and try to learn the mechanics of the feet and dohh :eek:
 
Actually I did not ask for advice, I merely ordained to post an opinion, which I can see is frowned upon. My horse has no metabolic issues, on his last vet check he got a clean bill of health, also his teeth done - which I assume is also wrong as nature should be allowed to take its course. Having been around horses for twenty years I now feel like a complete novice.:eek:
 
Horseycrazy said:
Actually I did not ask for advice, I merely ordained to post an opinion, which I can see is frowned upon. My horse has no metabolic issues, on his last vet check he got a clean bill of health, also his teeth done - which I assume is also wrong as nature should be allowed to take its course. Having been around horses for twenty years I now feel like a complete novice.:eek:
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Your horse almost certainly does have metabolic issues. He grows feet with such thin soles he can't walk on them without shoes on. You don't know what the issues are, or whether they are treatable, but you know that he has the symptoms.

I suspect that by the time he is full grown, when his metabolic rate will drop right off, you will need to be treating him as a very big laminitis risk.

Posting an opinion is not "frowned upon", but surely you cannot expect to post "just shoe it" on a thread titled "Barefoot Mafia please" without having your advice openly disagreed with?


ps the only person being extreme here is you, by the way. This discussion has nothing to do with teeth and no-one suggested that your horse would die except you.
 
sorry the teeth thing was sarcasm. Footie did not feel I had to explain however, when walking over 3 inch quarry stone he gets a bit tender, which I would assume a human would without any underlying issues. The end of nigh quote was also sarcasm, my horse is extremely healthy as I said in a previous post and no underlying issue or I will need a new vet and farrier.
 
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CPTrayes said

"Feeding a magnesium supplements is one of the single most important things you can do, though that said, lots of things in her diet will be out of balance so it is worth geting your minerals balanced"

Which is a well documented finding, perhaps not with the scientific rigor some prefer.

But as so often happens in this area - the general populace work something out and science catches up a bit later.

Just like with the caecum - I was taught as a child/teenager that it made no nutritional impact on a horse and was just storage and water extraction. In those days there wasn't the technology for science to discover otherwise. Of course we know different now.

But I was still disturbed to find the degree qualified nutritionist at an establishment of repute was still teaching that magnesium isn't that impoprtant and there is no evidence of shortage.

I'd invite her to go through my books and check out every case but I fear it would be a complete waste of time.
 
CPTrayes said

"Feeding a magnesium supplements is one of the single most important things you can do, though that said, lots of things in her diet will be out of balance so it is worth geting your minerals balanced"

Which is a well documented finding, perhaps not with the scientific rigor some prefer.

But as so often happens in this area - the general populace work something out and science catches up a bit later.

Just like with the caecum - I was taught as a child/teenager that it made no nutritional impact on a horse and was just storage and water extraction. In those days there wasn't the technology for science to discover otherwise. Of course we know different now.

But I was still disturbed to find the degree qualified nutritionist at an establishment of repute was still teaching that magnesium isn't that impoprtant and there is no evidence of shortage.

I'd invite her to go through my books and check out every case but I fear it would be a complete waste of time.
 
HC, it's very hard to digest I know. After all these months of pretty much dissing any information the Barefoot Taliban had to say, I'm now doing my first one in a transition.

Two of mine have had shoes on since the back end of their 2 YO year. Their overall hoof quality is better than what you have but I also changed the diet too way back when. Had I just changed the diet I would have been fine. As time has evolved with my horses so have their health care professionals. Gone is the BS who told me that flat feet couldn't be fixed ever and you just need shoes. Gone are the vets who came out twice for a lameness exam to say, some horses just aren't good movers. I fecking paid for that advice!

The one time I improved sole thickness was due to pour in pads with shoes, but that's logical if you think about it. So in my brain to me they can improve bare as well when the sole gets to do it's job. Mine have been bare behind since January of last year. They struggled with the constant wet of the following months. They did quite well in the spring but I had to make changes to grazing. By happy accident with one missing shoe for a few weeks, the lightbulb went off which is why I'm taking the plunge. She is coping remarkably well since I pulled the other one. No boots. I will have to invest in boots for the others.

I wish I could have done things much different back when the problems first started but like I said, I evolved. Best of luck with whatever way you choose to go. FWIW, I was close so many times to putting those back ones on again and am so glad I didn't. I hope in 9 months the fronts look as equally as good.

Terri
 
Ok sorry posted twice I am no good on a Crackberry and OH and confiscated PC coz I'm ill in bed. I have to keep hiding this - he doesn't know I've got it.
 
Horseycrazy please ignore next post it is meant for others who do no possess your all encompassing supernatural knowledge of all things horsey and I would hate to offend somone of such supreme experience by telling you something you already know. So apologies in advance - your humble servant LP
 
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I 'do' over 200 horses at any one time. Of these without fail bar one the most problematic are Section Ds, IDs and IDX.

The one incredibly easy one has never been shod, has an appropriate diet and does mostly road work as there is no off road hacking.

Hooves are still growing at 3 shoeing at that age and younger does cause long term damage. I have got these sound, but it is much harder than it should be and the compromised hoof can rehab into a harworking barefooter, but it is unlikely to reach the glory of a properly managed never shod foot.

That said many cause a lot of unwitting damage by keeping youngsters on soft surfaces and feeding inappropriately.
 
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Hi Lucy I am human not all encompassing my horse does get minerals and vitamins, and in my previous post my thin sole comment was not about my horse mearly a comment regarding the original post he has very good feet which is why he has not had shoes on for over 3 years, however he has recently been broke and ridden away. His shoes will shortly be removed and turned out till next year as he still a baby. With all the correct nutrition he needs. Having had a horse with navicular I do understand hoof mechanics and the things we do to keep them comfortable and as pain free as possible till his passing. My comments my seem glib and I am open to different ideas. As you can see by the picture he gets the best of care as any animal owner would do.
 
Horseycrazy said:
Hi Lucy I am human not all encompassing my horse does get minerals and vitamins, and in my previous post my thin sole comment was not about my horse mearly a comment regarding the original post he has very good feet which is why he has not had shoes on for over 3 years, however he has recently been broke and ridden away. His shoes will shortly be removed and turned out till next year as he still a baby. With all the correct nutrition he needs. Having had a horse with navicular I do understand hoof mechanics and the things we do to keep them comfortable and as pain free as possible till his passing. My comments my seem glib and I am open to different ideas. As you can see by the picture he gets the best of care as any animal owner would do.
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I still don't understand why you would shoe a 3 year old....... Did you think it necessary for the backing and riding away process?

Lovely looking horse, by the way.
 
I never had any intention of putting shoes on - especially at three, however once he was backed and was being ridden away (unfortunately the bridleways etc around us are very stony) he became foot sore and uncomfortable so I eventually 'gave in' and had fronts only put on.. He was then very comfortable and happy and loves his rides out. Once this first set are ready to come off he will then have the winter off and be brought back next spring - however - if you are suggesting by making some miraculous change to his diet over the winter I can prevent him needing shoes I would love to hear it...
Currently - restricted grazing (to control weight gain etc), ad lib hay at night, lo cal balancer, topspec light, cod liver oil..
 
Horseycrazy said:
I never had any intention of putting shoes on - especially at three, however once he was backed and was being ridden away (unfortunately the bridleways etc around us are very stony) he became foot sore and uncomfortable so I eventually 'gave in' and had fronts only put on.. He was then very comfortable and happy and loves his rides out. Once this first set are ready to come off he will then have the winter off and be brought back next spring - however - if you are suggesting by making some miraculous change to his diet over the winter I can prevent him needing shoes I would love to hear it...
Currently - restricted grazing (to control weight gain etc), ad lib hay at night, lo cal balancer, topspec light, cod liver oil..
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Hi Horseycrazy - D's managed as per the good one on my books have crackingly good feet. But they tend to be quite challenging on the management side.

There are absolutely no miracles - except for the owners who thought that their situation was impossible then found not so much.

D's are beyond thrifty and seem particularly sensitive to 'modern' leys and bucket ingredients. Keep them on scrub with lots of nettles, hawthorn and very little if any grass and they are much more likely to thrive.

If grass has to be in the equation then make sure you download the lami app (you will need an modern Android or Iphone/Ipad for this.) They can be helpful - but again not miraculous. I would also check out what is included in the ley and if I could afford it I'd test.

With some (it does depend on area as well) forage testing and mineral balancing can really help. In my area we have some hay which is worse than the grass, even when soaked, so no assumptions can be drawn just by looking at it.

For temporary footiness (maybe due to grass, wormers, antibiotics, mistakes etc) boots and maybe pads are far more effective. They don't compromise the hooves and come off when not required.

Some of the worst behaved and/or lame horses I have worked on with a multitude of diagnoses (sp) have come right when the appropriate diet was fed.

However the real secret to getting it right with the very tricky ones is to have an owner/carer who is observant and pays minute attention to detail.
 
Horseycrazy said:
I never had any intention of putting shoes on - especially at three, however once he was backed and was being ridden away (unfortunately the bridleways etc around us are very stony) he became foot sore and uncomfortable QUOTE]

Sooo, hopefully he will be much more comfortable bare footed when you bring him back into work. But if he isn't would you consider booting him instead of shoes? At least you can take them off after each ride - which of course you can't with shoes.
He is a stunner, and the pic shows you care and want only the best for your baby.
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