Barefoot musing...

pistolpete

pistolpete

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Having joined the barefoot dark side I know find myself obsessed with the subject!
I recently came to the conclusion that one of the main reasons shoes are still so popular isn't because the horses can't manage without them but we can't keep them sound without them.
What I mean is when shod the horses can cope with the rich grass pasture we think they need! Take the shoes away and they feel their feet and get grass sensitivity so quickly. I think if husbandry was massively changed barefoot would be more popular. Interesting that there are high level dressage and show jumping horses that are barefoot who probably don't get loads of grass. Am I talking rubbish? Thoughts?
 
Not at all PP, you are absolutely right. Unshod horses show the effects of grass far quicker than shod ones.

My own theory is that it's because there is a bigger blood supply to the foot, so more of the toxins that cause the problems get into the foot.

I also think that it became routine to shoe when horses start work not because they can't work without the shoes, but because we ride them when they have grown up, and it coincides with when they have a lower metabolic rate and start to have issues using up all the carbs in the grass.
 
I think the issue is to do with how we keep horses now. I know that, locally, there are very, very few places that would be "perfect" to keep a barefoot horse. There has got to be a compromise somewhere and sometimes it just isn't enough to keep some horses barefoot. I livery at a farm that has beef cattle, the grazing is very rich. I no longer have a stable and I cannot limit the size of the field or pick the type of field my horse is in myself so the only option I'm left with is a muzzle which is unfortunately on the vast majority of the time BUT she is maintaining a healthy weight and is not footy (except on very rough gravel). IMO a stable isn't a particularly good option for most horses either because then they are not getting the movement required to stimulate the hoof. You can't win. There is a lot of countryside here but very little of it is suitable for helping a barefoot horse and many landowners don't want horses on it 24/7 because they don't want their fields trashed during an awful winter.
 
I agree with your point about the stables starry123. My understanding is that horses were first shod when people started to routinely keep them enclosed/indoors -so the shoes were to help prevent foot problems due to standing in on wet bedding. Like other grazing animals they do best when roaming widely on a variety of terrain. Sadly most places are now too small, the grazing is too rich and the ground is too uniform so not enough stimulation for the hooves.The hazards of domesticated modern living!
 
maccachic said:
Ive rently got some five fingers shoes and can draw a few parallels with my barefoot horses.
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Yes, I have meniscal tear in knee, when first torn, it was so sensitive that I would be crippled [need crutches] if I stood on a piece of gravel, I changed from wearing thick soled walking boots to thin soled Ariat Cobalts in order that the proprioreceptors did their job automatically [autonomic nervous system I think], this made a huge difference. So I can understand why it is that horses with leg injuries will heal faster when barefoot.
Just like the head in sands horse people, the G.P. and the consultant showed no interest in my theory ......... why am I banging on when I am "cured". Well not actually cured because it will never heal without an op [something they don't tell you voluntarily], but I am not on crutches at the moment.
 
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cptrayes said:
Not at all PP, you are absolutely right. Unshod horses show the effects of grass far quicker than shod ones.

My own theory is that it's because there is a bigger blood supply to the foot, so more of the toxins that cause the problems get into the foot.

I also think that it became routine to shoe when horses start work not because they can't work without the shoes, but because we ride them when they have grown up, and it coincides with when they have a lower metabolic rate and start to have issues using up all the carbs in the grass.
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When you say toxins, can you identify these toxins, we don't classify sugar molecules as toxins, so is there something else, or are you saying that sugar is a toxin.
Definition of toxin: "A poison of plant or animal origin, especially one produced by or derived from microorganisms and acting as an antigen in the body." I allow that we are not talking micro -organisms but presumably you are talking some by- product of horse metabolism which is produced when there is a sugar overload in the bloodstream.
 
MrsD123 said:
Yes, I have meniscal tear in knee, when first torn, it was so sensitive that I would be crippled [need crutches] if I stood on a piece of gravel, I changed from wearing thick soled walking boots to thin soled Ariat Cobalts in order that the proprioreceptors did their job automatically [autonomic nervous system I think], this made a huge difference. So I can understand why it is that horses with leg injuries will heal faster when barefoot.
Just like the head in sands horse people, the G.P. and the consultant showed no interest in my theory ......... why am I banging on when I am "cured". Well not actually cured because it will never heal without an op [something they don't tell you voluntarily], but I am not on crutches at the moment.
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Not sure of autonomic nervous system, this may clarify, but anyway proprioreceptors do their job without conscious input from the animal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception
 
I think many horses can cope with relatively higher sugar loads if they have heaps of exercise and movement. (There's a whole essay in that statement to do with carbohydrate overload, sub clinical hindgut acidosis, propionate/VFA energy metabolism and insulin resistance!). Many horses can cope with less movement than is ideal as long as their diet is managed. VERY few horses can cope with both without becoming lame/footy.
I totally agree with you about the proprioception thing and recovering from lameness (human!) more quickly. My recurrent sprained ankle issue has gone away since I started running in Vibrams..
 
MrsD123 said:
When you say toxins, can you identify these toxins, we don't classify sugar molecules as toxins, so is there something else, or are you saying that sugar is a toxin.
Definition of toxin: "A poison of plant or animal origin, especially one produced by or derived from microorganisms and acting as an antigen in the body." I allow that we are not talking micro -organisms but presumably you are talking some by- product of horse metabolism which is produced when there is a sugar overload in the bloodstream.
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Mrsd123 it is very well documented that most laminitis is caused by toxins released into the bloodstream through the gut wall from the faulty digestion of carbohydrates in the gut.

Laminitis isn't the result of sugar in the blood, it's the result of sugar in the gut, which alters the balance of the gut to allow organisms that produce toxins to thrive.
 
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I hate the word 'toxins', it is a cover-all cop out. Chemicals have names so if there are ones causing a problem they should be identified properly.
 
Gloi said:
I hate the word 'toxins', it is a cover-all cop out. Chemicals have names so if there are ones causing a problem they should be identified properly.
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Well toxins is a scientific term, as cptrays has clarified [I must have been having a senior moment in my original query] they ARE the products of carbohydrate fermentation [carbohydrates are composed of sugar molecules] which are circulating in the bloodstream, I don't think we as horse owners need to identify one chemical or another chemical [and in science there may well be interactions anyway].
Chemicals is itself a cover all word. Not all chemicals are toxic, eg NaCl [salt] is something we take every day, but may be toxic in huge doses, it is traditionally used for preservation of perishable feedstuffs but that does not make it a toxin. Probably an example of the scientific and the everyday use of the definition causing confusion.
 
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Gloi said:
I hate the word 'toxins', it is a cover-all cop out. Chemicals have names so if there are ones causing a problem they should be identified properly.
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I believe the research about exactly which toxins are the issue and why some horses guts produce them and some don't is still ongoing. I did read that staphylococcus bovis is one of the culprits in producing toxin that jumps the gut wall, but I have no idea if that thinking is still current

I also have no idea why you throw hissy fits about the use of a perfectly valid word like toxin, which you will find in a lot of serious discussion about laminitis, but there you go, each to their own..

Here's one of many examples for you:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http:...H2lzhg&usg=AFQjCNE68Gup1IoGI0olIDZt7VEyJl5ldg



I notice in that particular article that they now believe that too much insulin in the bloodstream can cause laminitis directly, which I had not caught up on.
 
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Edited to add: I was talking about OwnedbyJoe's comment earlier. I thought I had added a quote, doh.

I find myself agreeing with this 100%. I endurance rode to CEI3* 160 km level barefoot, and like most endurance horses, mine lived on grass 24/7. I also fed a pretty high carbohydrate (oats, corn and lucerne) and fat diet, so all around he was getting a lot, but he was also working hard too. Footy, for a competitive endurance horse is not an option, so if there had been any sign of it, there would have been changes.

The same horse is now retired from endurance, but still ridden. He still lives on grass 24/7, but obviously his hard feed reflects the level of work he does now. He's still pretty good on his feet, but not as good as he was ie. Cantering him on shingle is a bit of an ask these days. You can either put that down to the fact that he doesn't do the miles he used to, or that I am not actively conditioning his hooves now either, as I used too.
 
I believe the (sustained) rise in insulin levels with a high sugar intake is also a factor. This is why exercize is so important for many horses.

Another factor is stress to mind and body. We keep, use and feed horses so far removed from their evolved lifestyle, anything we can do to ameliorate this has to be good for the horse.
 
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