BAREFOOT. No problem, it's really easy !

[Changes]

You tell that to the numpty at my yard who is and I quote a "desperate barefooter" - Her horse was and always has been sound as a pound in shoes, but the local Parelli-ite has persuaded her that barefoot is a much healthier option for her horse... she has been struggling with him ever since, he will not stay sound in the amount of work she wants to do, without shoes.
Will she put shoes back on? No, because its "unhealthy"

*like*

Seen far too many of those........

 

[paddy555]

I decided to take the New Forests shoes off for the winter (first time I've done this)as he won't get hacked more than a couple of times a week until spring. Farrier took them off on Friday, hacked on Sunday included 2.5 miles of roadwork. No problem, I don't think he even noticed the difference. Hacked again today, same thing. Hooves look fine, he just gets hay & grass, no fancy additives. He has always had great feet but even so I can't why people think barefoot is something mystical.

I am glad that you are doing well but in all honesty 5 miles of roadwork and less than one week of barefoot isn't really that conclusive.
By the time you have lived through the spring grass (as someone said) and put 500 or 1000 miles on the clock plus you are doing many miles a week over all surfaces things may be different and you will know if you have an easy or difficult horse.
I hope he continues to go well.

 

[amandap]

Horses should not be forced to work if they are sore! They should have comfortable surfaces and pads and boots where they are uncomfortable. An assessment of the likely cause/causes of the soreness (thrush, weak hoof, thin soles or diet related for eg.) should drive management as it would with any rehab! A lot of horses having shoes removed are rehab horses ie. their hooves need rehabbing from the effects of shoeing and possibly diet etc.
Those with diet sensitivities are always going to be the most challenging and a few may require a very stritly controlled diet.

 

[tazzle]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzle
well I suppose it depends on how the process was carried out too .... if she just whipped shoes off and expected horse to remain in the same amount of work without giving him time to acclimatise then I am not surprised. No, she's been battling for over a year with him now. She followed the advice of her friend and has her horse timmed by her barefoot trimmer.

Thanks for more information . I think that if she has been doing all that she can within her circumstances, knowledge and advice and the horse is still not comfortable after a year then maybe it is indeed time to rethink. Is he still uncomfortable with boots on ? Is he only uncomfortable when working on certain surfaces or at certain times ...... if so maybe boots rather than metal shoes might be answer ? That way he gets protection when he needs it but does not have shoes on 24/7/365




I dont think anyone has ever said it is "mystical" jsr ... just that anyone considering it should do it from a position of gaining the knowledge required to so something in order to do it properly.

My point there was not for or against barefoot ... it was a response to my perception that jsr views anyone giving advice on the topic as presenting it as something only "special" people can do ( or that view themselves as "mystical"). I perceive the barefooters giving information as mostly just that ( I do not know what is in anyones mind as they write things ) .....they are sharing information on a topic they maybe know more than some others ( I know darn all about dressage for example so I guess if I raised a topic on it and it demonstrated a lack of knowledge then I guess / hope that those more knowledgable would enlighten me )


I understand this, but do you not accept that in some instances bare foot is not the best option?

I wish for all horses whatever is the best long term solution that is for the horse and not just for a riders convenience. I do not have sufficient personal experience of this sort of instance as none of the horses I have taken to, or cared for, barefoot have needed to have shoes back on. I do accept that there may be times when a horse may need shoes on especially if its been used to them for years. I am not one who denigrates those who have horses with shoes on.... its just my personal belief system after looking at evidence that promts me to choose barefoot. Like everything else we makes our personal choices but who in the end decides whats right and whats wrong .. well in this instance its right whatever keeps a horse fit and comfortable in what the human does with it ( that not a dig at anyone btw cos we ALL make choices what out horses do work wise

 

[POLLDARK]

It was not my thought to keep him barefoot come the spring & his work increases again but I will now see how it goes, it being so easy. As for rich spring grass he is strictly strip grazed all year round as I have loads of pretty lush grass. My Farrier has always said that the pony has the best feet on his round. Always level wear, never loses one, no blemishes on the hooves at all. I know I am lucky with him but when I was a child (long time ago)most of the ponies were unshod & never had to be rested up with poor feet. I really think that people like to over complicate the issue. Just suit the work to the hoof growth rate & make use of the verges on hacks.

 

[tallyho!]

It was not my thought to keep him barefoot come the spring & his work increases again but I will now see how it goes, it being so easy. As for rich spring grass he is strictly strip grazed all year round as I have loads of pretty lush grass. My Farrier has always said that the pony has the best feet on his round. Always level wear, never loses one, no blemishes on the hooves at all. I know I am lucky with him but when I was a child (long time ago)most of the ponies were unshod & never had to be rested up with poor feet. I really think that people like to over complicate the issue. Just suit the work to the hoof growth rate & make use of the verges on hacks.

Well exactly, our first ponies were never shod but we didn't have fancy feeds and kept them on grazing that would now be considered too poor. I honestly don't remember bags of feed. They got some crushed barley in winter with hay but that was about it. I only remember that there was only one family in whole village with stables. All us lot had shared sheds where ponies crammed in when it got too hot or windy!

 

[tazzle]

I know I am lucky with him but when I was a child (long time ago)most of the ponies were unshod & never had to be rested up with poor feet. I really think that people like to over complicate the issue. Just suit the work to the hoof growth rate & make use of the verges on hacks.

I do agree that it can sometimes appear complicated but I think there are a couple things to remember that have changed from when we were children

equines were not fed such complicated cereals / mixesand molassed everthing and (sometimes) too much grass the way they are these days. HOrses were also not so available as pleasure animals then, seems to me there were more sturdy pones / mixes then


pones / natives on the whole seem to go barefoot better ..... I dont know this for sure but maybe now we have a lot more "finer" breeds ... and maybe with tbs and crosses there is an element of feet quality not always being great if breeding lines looking more at speed


we know much more about the science of why we do and not do things these days, lots more research goes on ...... that can make us either more sure of things or make us more befuddled depending on what we read and believe


I suppose another thing might be that we investigate lameness and unsoundness more these days and look to causes ..... it might be that we are justifible more "fussy"


Like we are much more fussy these days about saddle fitting .

 

[tazzle]

Well exactly, our first ponies were never shod but we didn't have fancy feeds and kept them on grazing that would now be considered too poor. I honestly don't remember bags of feed. They got some crushed barley in winter with hay but that was about it. I only remember that there was only one family in whole village with stables. All us lot had shared sheds where ponies crammed in when it got too hot or windy!

we x posted but I think we are actually agreeing

I think its because sooooo much has changed over the types of grass pones graze on these days and the types of complex mixes they get than sometimes the advice to cut down grass / cereal and add some minerals is needed .... most people dont seem to have a problem with adding pink powder or mineral / salt licks to horses diet so do seem to accept some supplements....... its just that some barefooters identify some minerals that help more than others and have looked into nutrition in more depth. I havent in great depth so I read them with interest

 

[tallyho!]

we x posted but I think we are actually agreeing

I think its because sooooo much has changed over the types of grass pones graze on these days and the types of complex mixes they get than sometimes the advice to cut down grass / cereal and add some minerals is needed .... most people dont seem to have a problem with adding pink powder or mineral / salt licks to horses diet so do seem to accept some supplements....... its just that some barefooters identify some minerals that help more than others and have looked into nutrition in more depth. I havent in great depth so I read them with interest

Yes I agree!

I think alot has changed and it is not the same for everyone. I don't know about anyone else but I totally bought in to all that supplementation and feeding fancy things over the years, trend after trend, until my horse got ill. You might see historic posts of mine singing the praises of f4f!!!! I can't believe knowing what I know now I did it... I graduated with a BSc! Compared to 2009, horse care has gone back to basics for me. Less is more and yes, I do utilise certain minerals only thanks to forage analysis. It's been a steep learning curve but definitely not "mystical"

 

[amandap]

On top of all the fancy processed feeds we have modern high yield grasses.

 

[Changes]

On top of all the fancy processed feeds we have modern high yield grasses.

What - on your average livery yard?

 

[amandap]

Any grass that has been resown will have modern strains of grass unless meadow or similar is specifically planted. Modern grasses are bred to withstand cold better, be trample resistant and have a high nutrient content.
Do livery yards buy special horse grass then? Many livery yards are former farms aren't they?

Perhaps the average livery is on old meadow that has never been ploughed and reseeded? That isn't my understanding but I may well be wrong.

 

[criso]

Any grass that has been resown will have modern strains of grass unless meadow or similar is specifically planted. Modern grasses are bred to withstand cold better, be trample resistant and have a high nutrient content.
Do livery yards buy special horse grass then? Many livery yards are former farms aren't they?

Of course this will differ around the country but near me a large proportion if not most of the yards round here are ex dairy farms. When dairy farming stopped paying going for the livery market especially the full livery yard with lots of facilities was an alternative way of making money. They range from about £500 to £1000 pcm month

 

[Changes]

Any grass that has been resown will have modern strains of grass unless meadow or similar is specifically planted. Modern grasses are bred to withstand cold better, be trample resistant and have a high nutrient content.
Do livery yards buy special horse grass then? Many livery yards are former farms aren't they?

Perhaps the average livery is on old meadow that has never been ploughed and reseeded? That isn't my understanding but I may well be wrong.

If the grass isn't fertilised and maintained as a high yield grass, then the continual grazing trampling of horses will very swiftly negate (2 years) any lushness that was previously boosted for a cattle yard.

 

[criso]

If the grass isn't fertilised and maintained as a high yield grass, then the continual grazing trampling of horses will very swiftly negate (2 years) any lushness that was previously boosted for a cattle yard.

Some do fertilise as well and won't do starvation paddocks as it 'spoils' the fields.
Totally unsuitable for horses but hey it looks lovely and green in the pictures.

 

[Changes]

Some do fertilise as well and won't do starvation paddocks as it 'spoils' the fields.
Totally unsuitable for horses but hey it looks lovely and green in the pictures.

Sorry - that makes no sense -they don't do starvation paddocks - surely that's good?

ETA, just realised you meant the yards don't do starvation paddocks. So ignore that........

Most livery yards don't fertilise, certainly not to the level that dairy or beef farms do, simply because they cannot rotate the land. And why would they?

Livery yards won't pay the costs to fertilise unless the grass is in such a bad way as to desperately need it. Which of course is not remotely dangerous other than it's likely to produce weeds.

 

[Oberon]

It does make you wonder why laminitis is so rife then - even with responsible owners (and I'm talking about shod and bare horses in equality).

 

[criso]

Sorry - that makes no sense -they don't do starvation paddocks - surely that's good?

ETA, just realised you meant the yards don't do starvation paddocks. So ignore that........

Most livery yards don't fertilise, certainly not to the level that dairy or beef farms do, simply because they cannot rotate the land. And why would they?

Livery yards won't pay the costs to fertilise unless the grass is in such a bad way as to desperately need it. Which of course is not remotely dangerous other than it's likely to produce weeds.

Don't ask me but they do.

Maybe because in some cases they are used to managing land for cows and will not take on board that horses are not cows, after all they've been farming for years why should they listen to horsey people with no farming background.

In others they want to create that lush green looking pasture and to be fair a percentage of the owners see lovely green fields as a plus.

And don't start me on what does get sown.

During the summer I regularly rode past a field that had half had been ploughed and reseeded, the difference between the old grass on one side that came through with dozens of difference species and the single species (ryegrass) that sprouted on the other.

 

[Changes]

Don't ask me but they do.

Maybe because in some cases they are used to managing land for cows and will not take on board that horses are not cows, after all they've been farming for years why should they listen to horsey people with no farming background.

In others they want to create that lush green looking pasture and to be fair a percentage of the owners see lovely green fields as a plus.

And don't start me on what does get sown.

During the summer I regularly rode past a field that had half had been ploughed and reseeded, the difference between the old grass on one side that came through with dozens of difference species and the single species (ryegrass) that sprouted on the other.

Where are these farms? In all the livery yards I went teaching in, that just didn't happen......... some fields they sowed for hay, yes, but the horses were never on that except after the hay was cut.......

I don't get it -how many livery yards have the spare land for turnout whilst they fertilise their fields to keep them looking pretty???

 

[Changes]

It does make you wonder why laminitis is so rife then - even with responsible owners (and I'm talking about shod and bare horses in equality).

Ignorance and overfeeding. A total lack of education. Livery yards.

 

[Goldenstar]

Ignorance and overfeeding. A total lack of education. Livery yards.

And add loads of horses who do no proper regular work.

 

[Clava]

If the grass isn't fertilised and maintained as a high yield grass, then the continual grazing trampling of horses will very swiftly negate (2 years) any lushness that was previously boosted for a cattle yard.

That's rubbish, my parents reseeded my field 35 years ago with rye and clover, it is still rye and clover (never maintained or fertilised and with only horses on it) and totally inappropriate and far too lush for horses.

 

[Changes]

And add loads of horses who do no proper regular work.

Thanks, forgot that - so right!!!

 

[Changes]

That's rubbish, my parents reseeded my field 35 years ago with rye and clover, it is still rye and clover (never maintained or fertilised and with only horses on it) and totally inappropriate and far too lush for horses.

Really? What size and how many horses?
Is it a livery yard?

 

[criso]

To be fair the field that was resown was used as an access route and was damaged so they did need to start again but they could have found a better mix to sow.

Alot of these fields are paddocks rather than big fields and it is quite easy to rotate the horses so that they get rested for a few months at a time. So when the horses are moved off, fertilise and then top if it gets too long before the horses go back on it.

 

[Clava]

Really? What size and how many horses?
Is it a livery yard?

My field is 3 1/2 acres, over the past 30 odd years I can't tell you how many were in that field, but currently, 2 haflingers, a shetland x and a TB. They are all mine, there are liveries on a further 9 acres, but not on this field. I will be spraying the clover in the spring and partially reseed to reintroduce more grass species. My parents had been advised by a farmer, I wish they had left it as rough meadow grass .

In this field the grass hasn't lost it's lushness, the clover has gone crazy and the majority of the grass is still rye.

 

[Changes]

My field is 3 1/2 acres, over the past 30 odd years I can't tell you how many were in that field, but currently, 2 haflingers, a shetland x and a TB. They are all mine, there are liveries on a further 9 acres, but not on this field. I will be spraying the clover in the spring and partially reseed to reintroduce more grass species. My parents had been advised by a farmer, I wish they had left it as rough meadow grass .

In this field the grass hasn't lost it's lushness, the clover has gone crazy and the majority of the grass is still rye.

So what's the clover? Clover will go wild on overgrazed land ........

 

[amandap]

Grasess that are there will remain unless it is very unsuitable for them. For fields to return to meadow takes many, many years and I don't even know if they can if rye and fertilized with droppings.

Clava, liming may help your situation. I believe clover favours slightly acid soils and soils do tend to become acidic over time. Acid soils also interfere with plant nutrient uptake and this leads to stressed grass, stressed grass often mean high sugar grass as it is unable to utilize sugars properly.
Wiki on soil ph. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_pH

This American scientist has studied grass in depth and if you're up for lots of reading this site is a good resource. http://www.safergrass.org/ Look at her articles.
My understanding from K. Watts is to look after grass (modern grasses that is) and lime and fertilize but only depending on soil analysis not just high nitrate ferts. K. Watts recons if you only do one thing that liming is the thing to do. Provided your soil is acid of course.

Many believe leaving grass to naturalize is best. I personally tend to go with K. Watts with rye and other modern grasses and I wish for old meadow in my dreams. It also seems altitude may be a factor as well, lower being generally 'lusher'.

 

[hackedoff]

I have always been ambigous/not convinced by barefoot brainwash and evangelicalism. Tried it twice with same pony, disaster for him each time going back to shoes after about 4 months. He has had rubbish flat feet since he began proper ridden work as a 5 year old he's 21 now.

Well third time lucky so far! His shoes came of in about August following a ruptured tendon in May. The delay was till he could bare weight on one front leg for farrier to remove shoes. The idea was to retire him with no shoes so he wouldn't slip when being led in hand on steep roads as part of rehab. He decided otherwise as he is now sound. Amazingly we are hacking out over very stoney peak district/pennine tracks barefoot behind and hoof boots on the front for upto 1/2 hr. HIs back feet are spot on and his front are growing healthy bars and starting to look mustangy underneath. He has been going out on restricted t/out 1/2 hour per day which is got to up a gravel track. I'm baffled, resident barefooter person reckons its the progressive work that's helped him adapt. It will be interesting to see what happens in spring.

 

[cptrayes]

If the grass isn't fertilised and maintained as a high yield grass, then the continual grazing trampling of horses will very swiftly negate (2 years) any lushness that was previously boosted for a cattle yard.

It has taken twenty years of not fertilizing for my 12 acres of hillside meadow at 1100 feet to return to mixed species of wildflower meadow and most of that change only happened in the last two years since I kept sheep off it completely instead of having 30 on for May to August.

Two yards near me are converted dairy farms and they still have nothing but ryegrass and clover after 10-15 years of having nothing grazing but horses.