BAREFOOT. No problem, it's really easy !

[cptrayes]

Just suit the work to the hoof growth rate & make use of the verges on hacks.

If you have to put your pony on the verges on hacks you have something not right. It may be that he is not conditioned yet to the work, but if you are still using the verges in a few weeks time come back to us and we will suggest what you might look at to enable him to stay on the roads and stones.

 

[cptrayes]

You did? On your now hidden blog you recorded being disowned by people you had previously worked with for what you did to a horse to try and get it barefoot?

Changes why do you hate what I do so much that you misrepresent me at every possible turn? Truly, it is getting beyond a joke now.

That blog is not hidden at all, it is at www.smartiesdiary.blogspot.com for anyone who wants to read it and it always has been.

Starting in March 2010, it contains in day to day detail the story and pictures of how I took a horse who was 24 hours from being put down because of incurable navicular disease, diagnosed by xray, treated with bar shoes, tildren, adequan and HLA and still lame more than a year later. After 9 weeks or so he was sound. At 11 weeks he competed in a dressage test, coming second. After 12 weeks he did a farm ride (with boots on the front) and a little jumping. He has now been sound for 17 months in a row. Last Christmas I gave him as a present to the people who had him on loan. This year he won the National Championships for his breed.

He is still barefoot and he is rock crunching. He's also still alive. Yes, the transition made him sore on hard surfaces (which he was given the option of avoiding) for a few weeks. Do you think he would rather be dead?



ps I am not suffering from insomnia, I have just come in from seeing Uncaged Monkeys with Brian Cox and Tim Minchin - what a treat that was!!!!!

 

[Arizahn]

I would have liked to have tried barefoot for Ali, but she requires shoes due to a slight turn in on her left fore. It is very slight, and is being managed with ongoing corrective shoeing to keep her comfy and steady on her feet.
I am a bit obsessive over feeding her as I am absolutely terrified of her ending up with laminitis and/or any other problems...

 

[Jesstickle]

Where are these farms? In all the livery yards I went teaching in, that just didn't happen......... some fields they sowed for hay, yes, but the horses were never on that except after the hay was cut.......

I don't get it -how many livery yards have the spare land for turnout whilst they fertilise their fields to keep them looking pretty???

FWIW our fields were fertilised this year (not my choice). I am at a bog standard livery yard. We had to keep in for two weeks for it to be done. I think you'd be surprised!

 

[POLLDARK]

If you have to put your pony on the verges on hacks you have something not right. It may be that he is not conditioned yet to the work, but if you are still using the verges in a few weeks time come back to us and we will suggest what you might look at to enable him to stay on the roads and stones.

No No. Never said I HAD to use the verges ! It makes sense to use them to minimise wear & tear when you can. It's obvious. He will trot on the roads & not bat an eyelid but why not use a free resource like a verge as this will slow down wear. I am talking about decent verges where you can have a spanking trot or canter, we have loads round here. So long as you know your verges have no cross ditches potholes etc why ever not. You don't need a MEDICAL reason to do it. Really. I NEVER said I had to. Read the post. Sorry to rant, just made me cross.

 

[POLLDARK]

More rant. He didn't require CONDITIONING to go on the roads very easily. no problem at all, just did it & is still doing it.. More mysticism I fear.

 

[cptrayes]

No No. Never said I HAD to use the verges ! It makes sense to use them to minimise wear & tear when you can. It's obvious. He will trot on the roads & not bat an eyelid but why not use a free resource like a verge as this will slow down wear. I am talking about decent verges where you can have a spanking trot or canter, we have loads round here. So long as you know your verges have no cross ditches potholes etc why ever not. You don't need a MEDICAL reason to do it. Really. I NEVER said I had to. Read the post. Sorry to rant, just made me cross.

It does not make sense for a barefoot horse to reduce wear and tear. The more they wear, the stronger they grow. Anyone who feels that they have to put their horse on the verge has got something wrong somewhere unless the horse is newly out of shoes.

Reread my post as "one" instead of "you" if it makes you so mad,. Just as your own post is obviously your general advice to everyone, so is my reply to your post a general reply to everyone. A horse which has to use verges instead of a flat road is not a happy footed horse and might be better off in shoes.

Polldark you have one pony who has done it easily and on whom you do not intend either to do very much work, or to keep him without shoes. Bully for you, there are thousands of people out there just like you with horses just like him. But do please stop deriding those of us who have done the really difficult ones, the IR/EPSM/EMS ones, the ones which are on grazing with mineral imbalances and the lame-in-shoes ones which were facing a bullet.

I'd bet my bottom dollar right now that if your pony goes footie on spring grass, you will bung shoes on him and go round shouting as loudly as you are now that it is all so easy "not all horses can do it you know!" instead of sorting out his diet.

 

[Miss L Toe]

That's rubbish, my parents reseeded my field 35 years ago with rye and clover, it is still rye and clover (never maintained or fertilised and with only horses on it) and totally inappropriate and far too lush for horses.

Clover [red clover probably] is generating nitrogen, which is the grass boosting fertiliser, it would have been sown as permanent pasture but suitable for beef and dairy cattle.
After WW1 [1039-1946] farmers were encouraged to grow grass to produce meat and milk for the Nation, a mix of perennial rye-grass and red clover were popular for grazed pastures which will take moderate applications of fertiliser, and provide grazing for sheep, beef, and dairy.
Old, Permanent Pasture which has not been ploughed since pre war will have a mix of grasses and will be good to graze, but will never be high yielding in farmers terms, it was part of traditional farming. Traditional farming practices eschewed strip grazing and the use of artificial fertilisers [organic farming, I suppose].
Permanent pastures were sown circa 1950 with the Cockle Park Mix which was self sustaining as long as the cattle manure was spread on the land, this Cockle Park Mix contained a good spread of available grass and herb species:
Hybrid ryegrass, Perennial ryegrass, Meadow Fescue, Timothy, Mixed herbs, Alsike clover, Late Fl red clover, wild white clover. These are still found in rural areas, but are not common as they are low yielding [milk that is].
Today if we want to sow for extensive grazing of horses we would look for a mix like this:
Meadow fescue, Smooth stalk meadow grass,,Timothy, Cocksfoot,, Ceeping red fescue, Sheep’s Fesuce, Rough Stalk meadow grass, Chewings fescue, ,Mixed herbs, Chicory, Sheep’s burnet, Sheep’s Parsley, Ribgrass, Yarrow.
Over the years, grazing patterns and fertilisation will determine the mix of grasses which become permanent species.

 

[POLLDARK]

Don't have to use verges & iI question your premise. People should not be afraid to try something as some people like to make it look difficult, if it works well & good, if not nothing lost.

 

[Changes]

Changes why do you hate what I do so much that you misrepresent me at every possible turn? Truly, it is getting beyond a joke now.

That blog is not hidden at all, it is at www.smartiesdiary.blogspot.com for anyone who wants to read it and it always has been.

Starting in March 2010, it contains in day to day detail the story and pictures of how I took a horse who was 24 hours from being put down because of incurable navicular disease, diagnosed by xray, treated with bar shoes, tildren, adequan and HLA and still lame more than a year later. After 9 weeks or so he was sound. At 11 weeks he competed in a dressage test, coming second. After 12 weeks he did a farm ride (with boots on the front) and a little jumping. He has now been sound for 17 months in a row. Last Christmas I gave him as a present to the people who had him on loan. This year he won the National Championships for his breed.

He is still barefoot and he is rock crunching. He's also still alive. Yes, the transition made him sore on hard surfaces (which he was given the option of avoiding) for a few weeks. Do you think he would rather be dead?



ps I am not suffering from insomnia, I have just come in from seeing Uncaged Monkeys with Brian Cox and Tim Minchin - what a treat that was!!!!!

Apologies - I found the post now, although I thought it had disappeared -this is what I'm referring to.

http://www.smartiesdiary.blogspot.com/2010/08/apology.html

 

[cptrayes]

I would have liked to have tried barefoot for Ali, but she requires shoes due to a slight turn in on her left fore. It is very slight, and is being managed with ongoing corrective shoeing to keep her comfy and steady on her feet.
I am a bit obsessive over feeding her as I am absolutely terrified of her ending up with laminitis and/or any other problems...

Arizahn take a look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com to see what odd shape feet some barefoot horses grow to compensate for not being straight in the legs. We believe that it is better for the horse to be allowed to create the foot that he needs to minimise the stress on the joints. I have, for example, a horse who is twisted in from below the knee but his pastern comes straight again. In shoes, he lands with the outside edge of his foot first. After six months out of shoes, his foot would, to a farrier, look as if it was not directly below his pastern as it "should" be - but he now lands squarely on both heels with a straight leg and it is clear to me that his knee and pastern joints are much more evenly loaded.

Your mare's slight twist is probably not a reason for her not to go barefoot there are plenty of horses with fairly severe twists who manage fine. (they grow thicker horn on the pieces of the foot that are taking the most wear). Lack of support from your farrier for you would make it hard though.

 

[Clava]

..as some people like to make it look difficult,.

No-one likes to make it look difficult and given that you have had one easy pony to barefoot, it seems very arrogant to suggest that others who are struggling with getting the diet / hooves right "like to make it look difficult"

MrsD123 - it is white clover not alsike or red clover and sown for beef calves (and to fertilise the grass). Also my field is on clay and chalk so I doubt lime will kill it, but it's days are numbered! lol.

 

[cptrayes]

Apologies - I found the post now, although I thought it had disappeared -this is what I'm referring to.

http://www.smartiesdiary.blogspot.com/2010/08/apology.html

And what in that post, entitled you to reply

You did? On your now hidden blog you recorded being disowned by people you had previously worked with for what you did to a horse to try and get it barefoot?

to my reply

Do you know anyone who would do this?

I don't and I hope if you do that you have reported them to the relevant authorities?

to this comment?

What I really really object to is people putting their horses through, in some cases, years of torture aka transitioning in order to prove a point.

I would like your full and unqualified apology for accusing me of TORTURING a horse
in order to "prove a point", please.


cptrayes

 

[Lady La La]

I would like your full and unqualified apology for accusing me of TORTURING a horse
in order to "prove a point", please.


cptrayes

LOL. Maybe appologise to your shetland first, for torturing him in the feed shed?

...Nuts.

 

[Miss L Toe]

I would have liked to have tried barefoot for Ali, but she requires shoes due to a slight turn in on her left fore. It is very slight, and is being managed with ongoing corrective shoeing to keep her comfy and steady on her feet.
I am a bit obsessive over feeding her as I am absolutely terrified of her ending up with laminitis and/or any other problems...

My boy has a slight twist and the only time his feet look "a perfect" pair is when the farrier does them, left to their own devices over two months they will adapt to the gait of the horse, I feel he is more balanced when the feet are allowed to develop, and is slightly "uncomfortable" when the farrier has rasped him, there are no trimmers round here and he does not need shod as far as I can see, his feet are stronger than when he was shod, though I avoid sharp loose gravel.

 

[cptrayes]

LOL. Maybe appologise to your shetland first, for torturing him in the feed shed?

...Nuts.

Oh, yes please, Brazils are my favourite

 

[Pale Rider]

People don't half talk some balls.

 

[Lady La La]

People don't half talk some balls.

All this talk of nuts seems to have gone to your head...

 

[brucea]

My boy has a slight twist and the only time his feet look "a perfect" pair is when the farrier does them, left to their own devices over two months they will adapt to the gait of the horse, I feel he is more balanced when the feet are allowed to develop, and is slightly "uncomfortable" when the farrier has rasped him, there are no trimmers round here and he does not need shod as far as I can see, his feet are stronger than when he was shod, though I avoid sharp loose gravel.

Yes - I have a hind right like that on one of mine. There is a visible deviation at the fetlock. As long as he is left to grow his own as he needs them it's fine - but "straighten" the hoof up and he's sore.

 

[SpottedCat]

If the grass isn't fertilised and maintained as a high yield grass, then the continual grazing trampling of horses will very swiftly negate (2 years) any lushness that was previously boosted for a cattle yard.

This comment shows a lack of understanding of both how fertilisation works and of grassland ecology. It simply isn't true. If you could convert a rye grass field (which is what most livery yards have, especially if they are former farms) to a nice mixed grassland meadow in two years simply by not fertilising it and putting horses on it I'd be out of a job!!

Rye grass is blooming awful for horses - it is mostly leaf, rather than stalk, and so is far higher in sugars than what horses have evolved to eat. It is, however, great for increasing yields in cattle!

 

[forestfantasy]

I decided to take the New Forests shoes off for the winter (first time I've done this)as he won't get hacked more than a couple of times a week until spring. Farrier took them off on Friday, hacked on Sunday included 2.5 miles of roadwork. No problem, I don't think he even noticed the difference. Hacked again today, same thing. Hooves look fine, he just gets hay & grass, no fancy additives. He has always had great feet but even so I can't why people think barefoot is something mystical.

Just a note on this - i took my mares front shoes off last wednesday, we were fine for a few days, this last couple of days she has a few 'chunks' out where her quarter clips used to be (2 on both front feet), until the nail holes grow out i expect this to happen as that part of the hoof wall has been weakened by the nails.

So while your first few days have been fine please don't expect not to have any problems with the hooves breaking up a little, at least until the nail holes have grown out.

Just to add - my mare is sound, the 'chunks' are very small and causing her no problems - just a little unsightly, i expect the more work i do to wear them down the better they will become

 

[Merrymoles]

I haven't followed the barefoot debate before and am slightly gobsmacked by the strength of feeling there seems to be around it. I rode my boy barefoot for the first year after he was backed and then he was shod because we were planning more roadwork. He was never "footy" and I did sometimes wonder if he would have been fine not being shod. We used to use the verges when he was barefoot and he preferred them when he was shod too.
He had good feet and it might have been an option for me but wasn't one I took as he was a nightmare if not exercised regularly and I took the view that I didn't want him off work if he became footy.
But surely what is key in this whole debate is that all horses (and their owners) are individuals and what works for one does not necessarily work for another, be it shoeing, clipping, bedding, nutrition or whatever! It's great to share views and advice on HHO but decisions have to be made both on the horse itself and on what the owner can or can't manage to do. For me it was a choice between the financial pain of shoeing every six weeks or the mental (and probably physical!) pain of having an unhappy horse who needed more exercise.

 

[Oberon]

Whilst I am reluctant to get involved in another barefoot bunfight, I do feel compelled to add my two penneth.

POLLDARK you are absolutely right. There isn't anything mystical or complicated about taking a horse barefoot.

The principles are:

Feed an appropriate diet
Trim sympathetically
Work work work

That's it.

However although the vitriol appears to be aimed at 'evangelical barefooters' I do feel that feed companies, vets and hoofcare professionals share the blame.

Shiny bags of feed that promise the world but deliver poor quality ingredients covered in sugar - which Dr Pollitt's research has found to weaken the P3/wall connection.

Vets who scratch their heads at any hoof/tendon/ligament/joint problem and prescribe heart bar shoes, then wedges, then PTS without even considering just taking the shoes off. Some of these horses have had owners who refused to give up (see Rockley Farm).

Hoofcare professionals who mutter about dangerous and catastrophic consequences of riding a horse without shoes (often when there is no actual problem) - but offer no advice other than put the shoes back on. Now this works fine for some...but not for others. Where do they now turn?

I turned to barefoot because I got a large horse with big hooves. The farrier warned me that to shoe him when the time came, would cost me more than my other horse as his hooves were so big.

Being a cheapskate I looked for alternatives. I discovered some nutters on the internet believed you could ride a horse without shoes - and do just as much work. It seemed silly but I didn't dismiss it immediately...I decided to try and learn a bit more.

That was 8 years ago and I've been learning as much as I can since. I have no vested interest in persuading people to take the shoes off their horses. But if someone comes on HHO and asks for advice and I think I can help - then I will do. No matter how other people may feel about that.

Good luck with your horse. Hopefully you will watch with fascination as the hooves change shape and become stronger - then you may become a hoof geek like me

 

[Oberon]

I haven't followed the barefoot debate before and am slightly gobsmacked by the strength of feeling there seems to be around it. I rode my boy barefoot for the first year after he was backed and then he was shod because we were planning more roadwork. He was never "footy" and I did sometimes wonder if he would have been fine not being shod. We used to use the verges when he was barefoot and he preferred them when he was shod too.
He had good feet and it might have been an option for me but wasn't one I took as he was a nightmare if not exercised regularly and I took the view that I didn't want him off work if he became footy.
But surely what is key in this whole debate is that all horses (and their owners) are individuals and what works for one does not necessarily work for another, be it shoeing, clipping, bedding, nutrition or whatever! It's great to share views and advice on HHO but decisions have to be made both on the horse itself and on what the owner can or can't manage to do. For me it was a choice between the financial pain of shoeing every six weeks or the mental (and probably physical!) pain of having an unhappy horse who needed more exercise.

And if you want to keep shoeing - then brilliant if it works for you both.

But if you found yourself in a position where you HAD to take the shoes off - then the Barefoot Taliban on here would do everything we could to help you (just as we have done for others on here).

 

[Jade&Syrah]

Unfortunately I have to shoe my mare infront as she has rotated pedal bones and shes happier with them on, with out them, shell buck, refused to jump, barely trot etc. If I give her time off, she has the shoes off

 

[Miss L Toe]

Rye grass is blooming awful for horses - it is mostly leaf, rather than stalk, and so is far higher in sugars than what horses have evolved to eat. It is, however, great for increasing yields in cattle!

Another reason farmers like rye-grass is that it is "resistant to poaching", therefore by definition a rygrass sown field will not revert to natural grassland suitable for horses, no matter what is done to it, even over-sowing with "better species" will not work as rye-grass is a competitive species and will tiller [produce side-shoots] when it is grazed.

 

[amandap]

Also my field is on clay and chalk so I doubt lime will kill it, but it's days are numbered! lol.

Lime wont kill clover of course. I was responding to your clover increasing that may be a sign of the soil becoming more acidic. Lime is actually good for clay soils, it makes the clay form bigger particles which makes better soil.
The way to have an idea is get a ph test kit, follow the instructions carefully and see what the ph is. A garden ph kit is cheap and will give a rough idea.

 

[Clava]

Lime wont kill clover of course. I was responding to your clover increasing that may be a sign of the soil becoming more acidic. Lime is actually good for clay soils, it makes the clay form bigger particles which makes better soil.
The way to have an idea is get a ph test kit, follow the instructions carefully and see what the ph is. A garden ph kit is cheap and will give a rough idea.

Oh right. I don't think my clover is increasing, sadly it was seeded and is evenly distributed throughout the field, the only way I can see even the rye grass increasing is if I poison the clover! Clover is really not good for horses and is very bad for my tb

 

[tallyho!]

It does not make sense for a barefoot horse to reduce wear and tear. The more they wear, the stronger they grow. Anyone who feels that they have to put their horse on the verge has got something wrong somewhere unless the horse is newly out of shoes.

Reread my post as "one" instead of "you" if it makes you so mad,. Just as your own post is obviously your general advice to everyone, so is my reply to your post a general reply to everyone. A horse which has to use verges instead of a flat road is not a happy footed horse and might be better off in shoes.

Polldark you have one pony who has done it easily and on whom you do not intend either to do very much work, or to keep him without shoes. Bully for you, there are thousands of people out there just like you with horses just like him. But do please stop deriding those of us who have done the really difficult ones, the IR/EPSM/EMS ones, the ones which are on grazing with mineral imbalances and the lame-in-shoes ones which were facing a bullet.

I'd bet my bottom dollar right now that if your pony goes footie on spring grass, you will bung shoes on him and go round shouting as loudly as you are now that it is all so easy "not all horses can do it you know!" instead of sorting out his diet.

*Likety Like*

*Likety Like*

Sooooo..... after reading the cringeworthy comments by quite a few people, it is quite clear that apart from a few, we are all out of our depth.

We live in a world of discoveries and I am PROUD, just like some pioneers n hoofcare (farriers included) that I have embraced newer research the people of this world have had to offer.

I am totally disgusted that some people are being nasty towards people they don't even know. Who do you think you are exactly??

I am completely out of my depth because I have only successfully "barefooted" one horse. One who had laminitis, navicular, liver disease and a rather boxy foot which modern farriery (I paid hundreds for the *BEST* farrier on the UK used by many veterinarians) until vet said either we cut his tendons or take his shoes off!

What would you have done?

 

[tallyho!]

Oh right. I don't think my clover is increasing, sadly it was seeded and is evenly distributed throughout the field, the only way I can see even the rye grass increasing is if I poison the clover! Clover is really not good for horses and is very bad for my tb

Brrrrrilliant for milk though!!!