Barefoot - nutrition, nutrition, nutrition and WORK

cptrayes

cptrayes

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Not really veterinary, I'm sorry, but it will get lost in New Lounge and I know that there are several barefoot trimmers who read HHO who might be interested in what I am about to write.

We all know now how important nutrition is in a barefoot performance horse and after two years I was pretty sure that I had my hunter spot on, including supplementing copper to compensate for high manganese.

But this January, his feet were wearing so short on the roads that I was seriously only a day or two off putting front shoes on him. He was completely sound, but had worn his feet totally flat except for the collateral grooves.

I puzzled what was different from last January, when this did not happen, and came up with what I think is the answer - work. Last January we had deep snow but he was in full work, cantering on the roads in a foot of snow cover. He missed lots of hunts, but he didn't miss any work to keep him fit enough to hunt.

This December we had freezing conditions but the snow was cleared. The council did not supply our local gritter with enough salt and the roads were a sheet of ice too dangerous to go out on. My field was completely frozen and so was the barn he lives in at night. I fed haylage in the field but they only walked 20 yards to the haylage and then back to shelter against the stable wall. They hardly moved more than 100 yards in the whole day.

So by the time hunting started again, his feet had shut down their growth, because it was not needed. I suddenly started doing a lot of road work again and they wore away. It took three weeks to kick-start the growth again, and this last week or so he is replacing the worn foot.

Lessons I learned - you cannot suddenly increase work with a barefoot horse, even if it has only had a few weeks of idleness. Some horses need movement and work to keep the growth levels up.

I found this a very interesting episode, and I hope that my experience helps.
 
I keep going back to Nic's diagram.

feed%20movement%20trim.png
 
I don't recall that diagram Bruce, though I guess it must be in Feet First and since I am on the front cover, that's a bit remiss of me :) !!

What surprised me, and caught me out completely, is that it only took 3-4 weeks to shut his growth down, and another 3-4 weeks to start it back up again. I never took any height off his feet the whole time, the growth just stopped when he stopped moving. I can't afford a horse walker so next time I'm going to have to do something to keep him moving - ideas please!!
 
I confess I am struggling with mine at the moment - he has had his shoes off for almost 8 weeks, his trimmer is great, very well recommended and his diet is as close to spot on as I can manage given he is a fussy eater and the trimmer is happy with it. However he has a bruised sole which he is still feeling sometimes even through hoofboots and a gel insole. It is definitely a bruised sole and nothing 'more serious' - the vet has confirmed this.

I understand the principles of movement and hoof growth, but how did you get the miles on the clock with yours through the transition period? It feels like Catch 22 at the moment!
 
Definitely the same experience here Caroline. I use boots at this time of year when I can't ride often enough to keep them going, as soon as I see the foot catching up I ride without them/with them, alternating until the growth is in balance again.

I'm toying with using seaweed for an extra spurt, I've seen this happen in December with a client, who has 3 retired horses, normally grow quite slowly in winter, but last visit I had at least double the normal amount of growth. I asked what she'd been feeding she said NAFSeaweed.

Like Nic's diagram by the way.
 
Have found the same on ours, though it is heartening to hear that it only takes a few weeks for the growth to catch up with the work again (we are only 4 months into shoes off so it is a steep learning curve!).
 
The pony, we have bars again today, so that's taken three days since he hunted with a lot of roadwork on Saturday. His feet must be growing like topsy!

Fadedv I'm sorry but your only real option at 8 weeks in midwinter is to be patient. My first horse took eight months. My hunter has never been shod and has been in solid work for a year and a half. Eight weeks is a very short time, it will come right if you take it slowly. If he has a bruised sole then your horse has some issues with sole thickness and quality which may take six months to a year to come right. Meanwhile, do whatever work he is capable of, and as much of it as he is capable of and good luck.

Andalucian :) I can't use seaweed here unfortunately - too much iron already... Do you think the agar (gelatin type stuff) in seaweed helps - I remember when I was a child I was told to eat a cube of jelly if I wanted good fingernails. Is that just an old wives tale, or does it work, I wonder??? And if so, would he prefer raspberry flavour, or blackcurrant :) ?
 
All of these threads are really interesting. How would you deal with a barefoot horse after a layoff/holiday? Just increase the work slowly, maybe including school work and horse walker to start with?

I think I'm going to have my horse's shoes removed this year (definitely backs, am still 50/50 on the fronts but happy to be convinced) so this post has given me something to think about as although he will be living out, he is likely to get a holiday for at least Dec if not Jan as well.
 
I start off after time off by working on a softer surface so you don't get such a high wear rate, but you still get the concussion and flex needed to stimulate new hoof growth.

I stick to school and verges for the first week or 2, then gradually do a bit more road work once the hoof shows signs of speeding up the growth.
 
chestnut cob said:
All of these threads are really interesting. How would you deal with a barefoot horse after a layoff/holiday? Just increase the work slowly, maybe including school work and horse walker to start with?

I think I'm going to have my horse's shoes removed this year (definitely backs, am still 50/50 on the fronts but happy to be convinced) so this post has given me something to think about as although he will be living out, he is likely to get a holiday for at least Dec if not Jan as well.
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A few years ago, when I didn't have the option of a school, I used boots and did lots of roadwork. That worked well too. (I got caught out this time because I simply didn't expect three weeks to make that much difference. I think the main culprit was that my field was too treacherous for them to move around on, so he stood practically in one spot for the whole three weeks :( )
 
cptrayes said:
A few years ago, when I didn't have the option of a school, I used boots and did lots of roadwork. That worked well too. (I got caught out this time because I simply didn't expect three weeks to make that much difference. I think the main culprit was that my field was too treacherous for them to move around on, so he stood practically in one spot for the whole three weeks :( )
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It can't really be helped though (treacherous fields), this winter has been dreadful and pretty much everyone has been in the same boat. We were actually quite lucky this winter as we had snow in the main so the horses got out and spent all day playing. Last winter was worse for us as it rained and then froze so we couldn't even get ours into the fields, they just went on the walker for 3 weeks.

With regards to ideas for keeping him moving, do you have the option of putting in a gravel or sandy area? Or turnout in the arena if you have one?

Do you find that they struggle in boots at all, ie if the horse is a little footsore without shoes or boots on the road while he gets used to it, is he still likely to feel a bit sore in boots too? Or do they "cure" the problem? Sorry if these are stupid questions, this is all new!
 
I always tell people to think of getting the feet fit as you getting the whole horse fit. So if your horse has had a lay off you'd restart the fittening process by a few weeks walking on the roads before introducing trot gradually. Getting the horse fit and the feet fit at the same time works for me.

As for boots - I've not yet come across anything that wasn't sound in boots and pads. The foot will still get plenty of stimulation. My 23 year old gelding's fronts improved and changed hugely after a few weeks on the roads in boots. He's fully boot free now. I start with boots all round, then take off the back boots, then remove the front boots. Unless of course the horse is happy straight off without boots.

Work is vitally important though for sure. Back to my 23 year old gelding - he was barefoot but pretty much retired in a field for the last 18 months. His feet didn't improve much in that time. But after eight weeks back in work his feet have changed out of all recognition - heels have decontracted, concavity developed and angle of growth has improved too. This is all down to him being worked!
 
This is really interesting. I found that the feet took longer to get fit than the rest of the horse!

My horse was off work during the ice and snow, but has been galloping around, much more than when he was in shoes. His feet look good, but I am going to take the trimmer's advice and use boots to do the longer distances and go for a shorter ride without boots on a 2 or 3: 1 to start with and then gradually use the boots less.

I keep thinking "movement, movement" so if I can't fit in a ride I was going to do some lunging/longlining instead.
 
cptrayes said:
Andalucian :) I can't use seaweed here unfortunately - too much iron already... Do you think the agar (gelatin type stuff) in seaweed helps - I remember when I was a child I was told to eat a cube of jelly if I wanted good fingernails. Is that just an old wives tale, or does it work, I wonder??? And if so, would he prefer raspberry flavour, or blackcurrant :) ?
Click to expand...
Oh yes, the cube of jelly story, and I recall KC La Pierre talking about feeding jelly cubes years ago, but can't recall in what context. I'm visiting these horses again in a couple of weeks, if they're still growing like Topsy, I'm going to give it a go!! I'll report back if so.
 
I am happy to take the time, after all I have no particular ideological love of barefoot and have taken his shoes off because he needed them off. It just seems a bit difficult to say 'he needs loads of movement' when if he cannot be ridden then he is limited to his daily turnout on soft ground (aren't we all at this time of year?!) - how is that stimulating to his feet? He is also slightly uncomfortable so doesn't want to move around very much :(

He is not unsound in hoof boots, but is rather uncomfortable on a circle. I don't really want to turn him out in them as I am concerned they will rub when they get wet and muddy! He is a very thin-skinned sensitive horse :(
 
fadedv said:
I am happy to take the time, after all I have no particular ideological love of barefoot and have taken his shoes off because he needed them off. It just seems a bit difficult to say 'he needs loads of movement' when if he cannot be ridden then he is limited to his daily turnout on soft ground (aren't we all at this time of year?!) - how is that stimulating to his feet? He is also slightly uncomfortable so doesn't want to move around very much :(

He is not unsound in hoof boots, but is rather uncomfortable on a circle. I don't really want to turn him out in them as I am concerned they will rub when they get wet and muddy! He is a very thin-skinned sensitive horse :(
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what boots do you have - someone at my ride turns out all day and everyday in boa boots and has had no trouble with them
 
I keep mine (all but the professional lami) out 24x7 and they have 4 fields to charge around in

If you had seen the state of the lower field this afternon and seen the way they were hoolying around like nutters - and then jumping the wall into the next field :eek: - 20 foot long skid marks... cob cat leaping in the air like tigger bounce! Lots of bite-knees and chase going on.

Not worried about their feet! They are getting enought momement. The landlady said they had been at it most of the afternoon!
 
treacle_beastie said:
what boots do you have - someone at my ride turns out all day and everyday in boa boots and has had no trouble with them
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I have borrowed some Old Mac G2s at the moment. He is so so so thin skinned and sensitive - buying tack/brushing boots/anything that touches him is a nightmare. I have had to ebay so many things it is unreal after they rub him after only one wear - record is a really really posh anti-chafe dressage girth which gave him girth galls after 20 mins of working in walk!! What can I say, he is a princess.. :D
 
brucea said:
I keep mine (all but the professional lami) out 24x7 and they have 4 fields to charge around in

If you had seen the state of the lower field this afternon and seen the way they were hoolying around like nutters - and then jumping the wall into the next field :eek: - 20 foot long skid marks... cob cat leaping in the air like tigger bounce! Lots of bite-knees and chase going on.

Not worried about their feet! They are getting enought momement. The landlady said they had been at it most of the afternoon!
Click to expand...

Mine is normally up for a good hooly around with his mates - I can tell he is sore because he doesn't want to :(
 
fadedv said:
I am happy to take the time, after all I have no particular ideological love of barefoot and have taken his shoes off because he needed them off. It just seems a bit difficult to say 'he needs loads of movement' when if he cannot be ridden then he is limited to his daily turnout on soft ground (aren't we all at this time of year?!) - how is that stimulating to his feet? He is also slightly uncomfortable so doesn't want to move around very much :(

He is not unsound in hoof boots, but is rather uncomfortable on a circle. I don't really want to turn him out in them as I am concerned they will rub when they get wet and muddy! He is a very thin-skinned sensitive horse :(
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Hi, I used my husband's old socks over my mare's hooves when she was turned out in hoof boots and didn't get any rubs at all. Might be worth a try with your boy and nothing lost if it doesn't work.:)
 
mrdarcy said:
As for boots - I've not yet come across anything that wasn't sound in boots and pads. The foot will still get plenty of stimulation. My 23 year old gelding's fronts improved and changed hugely after a few weeks on the roads in boots. He's fully boot free now. I start with boots all round, then take off the back boots, then remove the front boots. Unless of course the horse is happy straight off without boots.
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So if I take the backs off in Feb and leave him shod in front, should I be considering boots for the backs? The majority of our hacking is on smooth tarmac roads so I am hoping he will be OK more or less immediately without shoes behind. Most off road hacking I have access to is on grass or tracks and I'd be unlikely to do those straight away as I have to hack for about 1hr 15 mins to even get to a 1 mile stretch of bridleway. My Welsh cob went without shoes behind for a long time and I never even thought about it, just cracked on as normal. I am hoping this horse will be the same - very much hoping!!


Work is vitally important though for sure. Back to my 23 year old gelding - he was barefoot but pretty much retired in a field for the last 18 months. His feet didn't improve much in that time. But after eight weeks back in work his feet have changed out of all recognition - heels have decontracted, concavity developed and angle of growth has improved too. This is all down to him being worked!
Click to expand...

I have been told to expect my horse will need to be trimmed more regularly than he would need to be shod, if he's working without shoes, because the hoof should grow more. I find it fascinating to see photos of how horse's feet change when they come out of shoes, or in a situation like you describe. The difficult thing for me will be balancing work to stimulate the hoof growth with not working him too much so he is sore - I'm so used to him being shod and being able to do whatever I like that it will be a steep learning curve for definite for me! On a slightly different note, I think MrDarcy that you are in my area... I don't suppose you can recommend a farrier in this area by any chance? Feel free to PM if you prefer :) I currently have to use a farrier (not a trimmer) because of my insurance policy so if things don't work out with my current farrier/taking shoes off then I will have to look for someone else locally.

Sorry to hijack your post CPTrayes but hopefully it isn't too far off topic :)
 
Keep Trying said:
Hi, I used my husband's old socks over my mare's hooves when she was turned out in hoof boots and didn't get any rubs at all. Might be worth a try with your boy and nothing lost if it doesn't work.:)
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What an amazing idea, I never would have thought of that! Will defo give it a try :) Thankyou :)
 
I would never turn out in hoof boots, personally, due to the risk of severe rubbing. But like others, I have never had a horse unsound in boots and have been able to keep up a totally normal workload with horses who are still quite sensitive on concrete without them on.

Any movement seems to help, no matter what the surface. Even on squishy mud I guess the blood is still being stirred.

Chestnut cob I live at 1100 feet in the Peaks. My pea gravel arena was frozen solid. My wood fibre surface inside a barn was frozen solid. My whole world was frozen solid, including my fingers and toes most of the time :)

Catch 22 of course was that the lorry was impossible to take out on the hills so I didn't even have an option to drive him anywhere else. I have no idea what I'll do next time it happens :(
 
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cptrayes said:
Chestnut cob I live at 1100 feet in the Peaks. My pea gravel arena was frozen solid. My wood fibre surface inside a barn was frozen solid. My whole world was frozen solid, including my fingers and toes most of the time :)
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Eeek! Well, it was worth a try suggesting it anyway! The only other thing I can suggest is carpeting your fields then ;)

Our everything was frozen solid... we had 1 tiny tap with which to fill tub trugs for 28 horses at least 3 times a day. That seemed to go on for weeks. The arena took ages to defrost once the snow had gone and the ice block in the field auto water was still frozen 2 weeks after the snow went. At one point, it was so cold that my eyes were watering and the tears were freezing outside my eyes. I didn't sign up for this sort of winter, bring back the rain!!
 
I don't recall that diagram Bruce, though I guess it must be in Feet First and since I am on the front cover, that's a bit remiss of me !!

Hey, i LOVE that photo on the cover, you look amazing and a super position..........love it.xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
I was very cross when I saw what the designer had done Lainey. He is about to land on a bed of crushed rock, and it's been cut off the bottom! George was a super little horse, I bought him six months before as an unbroken eight year old. He was one of those who simply sails through on grass 24/7 and never noticed if he was standing on a rock. If he'd been a hand bigger I would have kept him but I sold him to a friend for her daughter and they are doing really well (but they shod him for studs :(!). Did you spot my splint - I was riding with a broken arm :) ?


Chestnut cob I think they call a slope of 1 in 5 with a carpet on it an artificial ski slope :) :) :) ??? On the trimming issue, if you plan to do plenty of roadwork (brilliant idea, great for conditioning) the odds are that he will not need trimming at all, never mind more often.
 
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I've been reading this with interest, and would really like some opinions:
I have three barefoot. One (TBxWelsh) has excellent feet - good frog, concavity, really strong digital cushion, would gallop over flints if he was allowed; one (TBxdraught I think) has good feet - similar to the first; the third (full TB) has been bare for seven years now, on exactly the same management as the other two, and while he has excellent back feet, his fronts are baffling me. They are pretty flat, the frog is small, the heels are contracted and will run-under if they're given the chance to, and his digital cushion is pathetic. He also has a broken-back hoof pastern axis. He has been on the barefoot mix for well over a year now, and also has copper and zinc supplementation in line with the forage analysis I had. His horn quality and the amount of flare have improved with the mix, and the hoof angle is slightly better, but he has a full 'new' hoof now and I was expecting more change. He is sound and happy, and actually hacked out for 90mins in the forest with no boots at the weekend, but he isn't as confident over stones as the other two, and I would love to get him as good as them but I'm running out of ideas. He has a heel first landing, he isn't stressed, he is on grass in the summer but shows no change summer to winter, and doesn't have any of the other symptoms that seem to be associated with grass intolerance. He is slim build and doesn't put weight on easily. He has been treated for thrush, which seemed to make him marginally more confident, but didn't result in any visible changes. I'm fairly sure there are no trimming issues.
Is there anything else anyone can think of that I can do, or do I just accept that he has rubbish feet and will probably need boots for some of his work forever?
 
Do his frogs touch the floor? I know of a TB who improved overnight when her underrun heels were brought back so her frog was in contact with the floor. She had been barefoot a year as well, and sounds very similar to yours.

With a contracted heel and small frog it might be impossible to achieve that with your horse, and in that situation, though it's something I have never recommended before, I wonder if work in boots and pads would provide enough stimulation to the back of the foot to kick-start some improvement?
 
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