Barefoot or not - Vets/trimmers will KS experience advice please

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BethH

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Hi

I have a lovely horse who had a Kissing Spine operation 7years ago successfully and has been sound shod and in ridden work ever since. He is trained very correctly both ridden and on the ground, long and low, lots of long reining and no gadgets with an instructor regularly checking I am sitting properly!

My problem is that I moved yards where my excellent farrier wasn't particularly welcome and so changed to another very well respected farrier about 18 months ago. I find that my horse is incredibly sensitive to correct balancing of his feet, but have had niggles about his way of going, especially over the last 9months. Everything has been checked back, teeth etc as I am very careful about him not being sore as he did have huge behavioural problems before surgery that become a well rehearsed routine caused by the pain in his back and when he isn't sore he is generally a poppet. I have moved yards and can now get my old farrier back if that is the right thing to do.

I have especially noticed that my horse seems not able to move freely in front, his movement has been looking increasingly restricted and it has become gradually worse over the last 4 months. I am pretty convinced it's the way he has been shod as my previous farrier took great pains to grow a decent heel on my horse and after the last couple of shoeings it has become more and more noticeable that his heels have disappeared, his feet are also looking smaller and the hoof wall isn't straight but curves. My previous farrier rolled his toes on the fronts slightly, but now all 4 seems to be rolled halfway up the hoof wall.

He was last shod just under 4 weeks ago and is looking increasingly uncomfortable to the point I don't want to ride him and he looks like he is landing toe first on all 4 feet on the long reins and is now looking lame/stiff on the back end. The current farrier will not be shoeing him in future but do I get my old farrier back who isn't great at organizing his diary or take a risk on barefoot. I am worried that the soreness he will go through will make him a handful to deal with as he was pretty dangerous in the past and also if I transition him by just taking the backs off first or take all the shoes off will that add stress to his back that could cause me problems in the future. He is on a sugar free diet of fast fibre and top chop lite anyway as he can't cope with anything more complex and his only sugar is the odd polo.

I feel a bit panicky about doing the right thing for him but if he is shod I feel that cramping his hoofs in to shoes may not be the best thing for him and having had other not great farriers in the past my trust is at a slightly low ebb! I am also wondering if that ability to move more freely without a lump of metal on his foot will allow him to balance better.

Sorry for ther long ramble but ryan and I have had a very long and difficult journey over the last 9years and I have sworn he will never have to suffer pain again so my guilt is huge at the moment!
 
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firstly he is lucky to have such a caring owner and sound like the the two of you have shed blood sweat and tears to get where you are.

If it was me I would get the old farrier to come out asap even tho he may not be due to be shod for 2 weeks, tell him you are really worried. I would explain as you have here and tell him your concerns.

Re the unshod the way I did it was take the backs off and six months later do the fronts with the use of boots, (although backs didn't need shoes).

are you able to post some photo's?
 
Thanks for your reply, I try my best for Ryan, he is wonderful but it has been a very long journey to get him sane! I am an utter numpty at technology, I can try and put some photos on here but one thing is absolutely certain, which is that he has no heel! I am so annoyed with myself for taking so long to notice the change.

I am worried about wasting my old farriers time and there is a good, qualified podiatrist who visits the yard and who i know can trim and put wraps on him to help initially. I suppose as he was previously sound shod I am panicky about upsetting the applecart and taking him barefoot but he looks so uncomfortable. I also worry about him being balanced correctly in shoes going forward. Farriers round our way can be a bit of a law unto themselves so you worry hugely about upsetting the good ones in case you need future help so I don't want to burn my bridges! Daft I know but we have lots of not so good farriers and the good ones you generally can't get an appointment with.

If I transition, do you think it would place stress on his back if he is higher at the front than behind? call to vet and farrier me thinks!
 
My horse was in pain when he was shod and since going barefoot he is much happier, although it is not easy, he has a lot of problems!
I have also found Bowen Therapy very helpful for him and he is more comfortable since having it!
I would really consider barefoot for your boy, you will get some helpful advice on here!
 
BethH - I am so sorry to learn of the trouble you are having. Photos would be good, but I understand re technology.

When you say 'no' heel - do you mean they are underrun?

Be careful re wraps the FRC has just amended their rules to include them in the definition of shoes although this has yet to be contested. (There is more to it than this and I am fuzzy on the details.)

I've always thought boots, if needed, and properly fitted are a better option anyhow as you can take them off and apply TLC to the hoof if required.
 
given that he was happy with old farrier for so long I think I would be tempted to get old farrier out and at least see what he thinks in the first instance but keep the barefoot as an option.
 
Hi

Thank you all for taking the time to reply its good to know that there is some sensible advice to be had, I agree with all the comments I have received.

Lucy, I think that yes he has what is termed Underrun. It's just at the last shoeing it has become much more obvious. Its almost as though under the bulbs of the heel he has no hoof wall if that makes sense so I don't know if this is a gradual reduction over time, as it seems glaringly obvious now that I am looking at it and I am sure it wasn't that bad a couple of shoeings ago, its like the heel has been crushed in to the sole. What is also worrying is that the hoof wall isn't flat and for the first time I have notice a bulge halfway down one of his hooves about half an inch wide. When he was shod 4wks ago I did mention my concerns and asked them to shoe to support the heel a bit more, the response I got was that he had inside out feet, I was a bit gobsmacked as Farriers have always said what wonderful feel he has and I have to say his feet have always looked good, he has a very strong sole and loads of growth but now it looks as though his feet haven't grown at all in 4wks and they seem to have changed size and shape.

I am going to call the vet tomorrow to ask if it will put undue stress on his back to have the shoes off as I am starting to think they need a 6mth break from shoes to recover and I can reassess and put them back on if he doesn't cope, I'm not sure what the farrier can do to correct the damage done with shoes on. He looks so stiff & uncomfortable at the moment I have to think he couldn't be worse barefoot. I have his physio/chiro seeing him Thursday to sort out any soreness but any further advice on what to do and how to make him more comfortable would be gratefully received.
 
fwiw mine ended up with underrun heels and the back of his hoof is a lot better for being barefoot :).

Hope you manage to get your boy happier, I think he is lucky to have you ;). There will be plenty of advice to be had if he need pads/boots in the first instance too.
 
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Hi Esther

Thanks for reply, I think thats where my thought process is going, I am thinking the back of his hoof needs help from not being shod even though it scares me witless. I worry barefoot is harder to manage than shod but then if it can be structurally beneficial for my horse's whole body I would like to try. His ridden feel has changed where now he feels like he is stomping the floor hard when he lands rather than the lovely soft relaxed energy I used to get, it has become especially noticeable this week and I think that can't be good for his lower limbs
 
Hi so an update for you all and more advice needed. I decided 4 weeks ago to take Ryan's shoes off as he looked so uncomfortable and couldn't even bend left to do a 20m circle, most unlike my horse, so was convinced the shoeing was a nightmare. Spoke to orthapedic vet at his clinic, who took a sharp intake of breath and was a bit worried to say the least as it wasn't a problem to take the shoes off, but would create a definite problem if he was sore and he couldn't be worked which would be bad!!!!

As it happens, he was landing toe first on all 4 feet and when the shoes came off he had long toes and no heel, the frogs had all shrunk and the foot was balanced so badly he was leaning on the insides on his feet, also what heel was left was different on each foot no wonder the poor boy was unhappy.

He has been quite remarkable in that he as usual has grown loads of foot now that he can move again and from day 1 has been able to walk small amounts of pebbles and has worked happily in the school on the long lines and this week ridden, all for just 20-30mins mainly walk, some trot and a tiny bit of canter with a 40 min hack round the farm a couple of days ago (all off road) so he has coped so much better already than I would have expected. He has had the odd sore day so has been given a day or 2 off here and there.

However, whilst he is muscling up again nicely through his back and shoulders, his back end is looking very weak and puny and the last few days he has look quite tucked up to the point where his hips are looking really prominent. His stride is still much shorter than it used to be but the podiatrist told me to expect this but it is the look of his back end that is really worrying me. Is it soreness, he has a pulse in all 4 feet and I am getting conflicting info, some people are saying there should be no pulse and other are saying it just shouldn't be strong but ok to feel one pumping lightly - what is the right answer? Also, could he look like this because of ligament changes etc etc and it is just something I have to watch and go through. He isn't lame and although a little stiff from previously lack of work when he has warmed up he looks just fine.

Reassurance needed please as I am tempted to give him a little bute to help???
 
Strong pulses after the horse has been standing still doing nothing, can indicate laminitis. As does standing with the hinds tucked forwards under the horse's tummy (some horses get it in the hinds before the fores, or even just one hoof).

It is (finally) spring, so the timing with the shoes being removed could be a coincidence.
 
It is so easy to wreck the caudal 1/3 of the horses foot with shoes, not only can it happen so quickly but it also takes and age to rebuild them with shoes.
In the past I would have put h/bars with supportive or primary loading on the tongue in order to try and get the heels to grow at an angle which would make them be able to take the weight loading.
Now that I only work with a barefoot method I first need to know if the owner is willing to ‘go the distance’ this will involve making sure the horse is able to use itself on a surface that it is comfortable on to start with in order to get it to realise it can heel load without any pain.
Once this is established then you can start to rebuild the trust the horse must have in its own feet.
As for the KS this does play a part in the compromise in the treatment, the reason being you do not want the horse to bring its hind feet any further forward than it has to in order to support its weight during a stride, the reason being that this will cause a rise in the back just where you do not want it.
So if it is possible I would recommend that you ride bare back in the school so you can feel if the action of the hind leg coming forward causes the back to rise, this will be due to the fore leg not being able to come down at full extension, or stay on the ground for full flexion, (basically a shorter stride than the hind).
I have no intention of giving trimming or shoeing advise as that would not be helpful as I don’t know the feet, but I would make sure what ever you decide to do ( shoe or barefoot) your team of vet, trimmer or farrier are all pulling in the same direction, just remember that shoeing and barefoot are 2 different professions and both have there merits.
Your horse has to compromise due to KS and so that must be taken into account by which ever professional you chose, please make sure that they know what they are doing before they start your horse down the road to recovery.
You will find loads of owners on the site that will have been through your dilemma sop I would pick there brains as much as you can to help with your decision
 
Oh gawd! Now I am starting to panic about low level laminitis, thank you Faracat I will keep a close eye on him and although he is coming in for the day and out overnight, I will look at keeping him in for a little longer with hay to be safe, it seems to be a very fine line at the moment of movement and turnout which is so important for him, versus dangerous grass! The idea of my horse getting laminitis is horrifying after everything we have managed to get him through over the years with his back!

Heelfirst thank you for your detailed response, I am using a podiatrist that has been highly recommended to trim my horse so I hope I have got it right with him! He seems very keen on not being to invasive and letting the hoof do it's thing and seems to take a lot of time to balance the foot properly (I hope!). The state of his feet when the shoes came off was shocking, it is amazing how especially bad they become over the last couple of shoeings. He apparently has a very weak digital cushion although luckily he has never had any sugar in his diet so his feet are strong and grow quickly, he is due his second trim tomorrow so fingers crossed he won't be sore. I will try to take my time on encouraging a bigger backend movement as clearly this is asking too much too soon, the collected trot seems to be worked his back muscles more effectively when I watch on the long reins so I will continue with this for a bit to strengthen him.

Thank you both for your help much appreciated, horses are such a worry!
 
Whatever you end up doing, taking the shoes off for a bit for a horse with the issues you describe can only help, as it will give either a trimmer or a farrier a horse with more growth in the right places and less in the wrong ones.

It would do no horse any harm to be fed as tho they have lami, as it would just be a healthy low sugar low starch diet.

Your trimmers approach sounds a good one, mine is the same and it is amazing what quick changes can be produced by what seems like a slow approach when the little bits they do is in the right places!
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to panic you, I just think that it's always wise to rule out laminitis if there's any footyness. Also make sure that he has no thrush.
 
Seriously all advice very welcome so thank you and Lachlan I agree, I felt shoes off at this point was less harmful than shoes on, at least if nothing else and he can't cope without shoes his feet will get a rest!

Neddie not as tucked up today put a decent rug on him last night to keep his back warm and that seems to have helped, also could barely feel any pulse after he had been standing in for a few hours this morning which was better than yesterday, so if for any reason there was any nominal lami risk we are on to it! His chiro gave him a once over this afternoon and said he felt good with no soreness, also hurrah, said his back was continuing to have excellent mobility so to crack on with his work steadily. Am a much relieved owner!

I am so hoping to be able to keep his shoes off, lets hope he carries on coping and starts to move like a grand prix horse very soon!!!!! I know this is wishful thinking on my part!
 
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