Barefoot peeps-flares

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claribella

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What do you lot think causes them. I have had numerous answers off numerous people! My girl has them on her inside hinds. Trimmer said it was her saddle but haven't ridden since the last trim and they have come back. Would it be anything to do with the fact that she has had her hip rebuilt in the past? Som say it's sugar content in grass and others say she isn't being trimmed properly but I really rate my trimmer.
 
As far as I understand it, flare and a stretched White line is the same thing. Yes sugar will not help. Her saddle? What's that about
 
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Yes I'm interested to know why she said saddle. My lad is in rehab for reverse rotated pedal bones and has some flare at the mo but trimmer leaves it as he says it's supporting him at the mo and will be lame or pottery if we take it off. My lad will remove it when he doesn't need it anymore.
 
The key is in the white line. If the white line is tight, and her feet are symmetrical from the sole view, then the liklihood is that what you are calling "flare" is actually a deviation in the shape of the hoof to compensate for a problem higher up in her body. The Rockley blog has lots of pictures of bent feet on horses with bent legs. My hunter grows one on a hind leg and he is much weaker on that side of his body.

If the white line is stretched, not a tight smooth cream line, then you probably have a few diet issues to sort out.

But if she is sound, then why fix what ain't broke? First rule is always listen to the horse. If your trimmer took them off and she put them back, she wants them.
 
claribella said:
What do you lot think causes them. I have had numerous answers off numerous people! My girl has them on her inside hinds. Trimmer said it was her saddle but haven't ridden since the last trim and they have come back. Would it be anything to do with the fact that she has had her hip rebuilt in the past? Som say it's sugar content in grass and others say she isn't being trimmed properly but I really rate my trimmer.
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There's flare and then there's flare :D

Most commonly you get 'bad' flare from the hoof wall peeling away from the laminae. This is down to the laminae being weak because of diet/metabolic issues.
lamihoof.jpg

Or because of excess pressure from peripheral loading (when shod).
overgrown-flares.jpg


Or (most commonly) a 50/50 mixture of both.

Then you have other types of flare or deviation which is from the body/joint.
This was from a shoulder injury. The horse has grown it for a reason and to remove it would set him back.
THAThoof.jpg


Or my old boy, who loads his hoof laterally to medial and therefore wears unevenly in between trims. He gets trimmed 'straight' and is happy and sound that way.
obiofffore.jpg


So the simple answer is that you can't just look at the hoof and know what the issue is. You have to know the horse and it's history to figure out what's going on sometimes.

If you have questions about what your trimmer has said, obviously you need to speak to them and clarify.....but it sounds to me like she/he has noticed some uneven wear and believes it is a body pain and saddle fitting issue to blame.

Body issues cause hoof problems and hoof problems cause body issues - so it goes round in a circle.
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/how-feet-affect-body.html

It sounds like the trimmer has eagle eyes :). It may be worth getting the horse's back and saddle checked out and nip any niggles in the bud or the issue will remain and/or get worse ;)
 
IMO medial flare on hind feet is invariably caused by medial/lateral imbalance in the trim applied. I know others above won't agree with me, but you get a vet to agree that the 3rd of Oberon's photos is acceptable!!!
 
Andalucian said:
IMO medial flare on hind feet is invariably caused by medial/lateral imbalance in the trim applied. I know others above won't agree with me, but you get a vet to agree that the 3rd of Oberon's photos is acceptable!!!
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Agree - most trimmers fall out over flare, never mind the more traditional mindset :D

What is interesting is the horse in the third pic (THE Dexter from Project Dexter) was (as I understand) self trimming nicely, then had this shoulder injury and developed THAT hoof.
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/puzzling-hoof.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/more-on-puzzling-hoof.html

Despite the shape - he was loading the hoof correctly, rather than the shape being a side effect of incorrectly loading the hoof (like my old boy does).

I believe the hoof has settled down to a more normal shape now the shoulder is sorted.

What it means to me is that there is a place for watching the horse move and thinking before trimming - because there is always that one horse who defies all the normal rules and logic :)
 
texel said:
I suggest you look at Pete Ramey's definition of flare:

http://www.natureshoof.com/pathology.aspx
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That isn't Ramey's site?

I have huge respect for him.

But I have watched That's My Horse DVD #2 where Ramey removed the flare from a newly deshod TB's quarters and heel and the horse went lame afterwards.
He admitted he should have gone more slowly and left it.

There is never a simple, straight answer when it comes to hooves :o
 
Her diet is fine and has been since before she was barefoot. The only thing that hasnt been grea is the grass. The weather is making it grow too quick! It's not an option to keep her in though or she would be mentally unsound. Swings and roundabouts.

Sh is sound so no problems there. Has been a little footy on the stones a little while back when everyone horses on here seeed to be too. Fine now though.

Oberon you are right in saying my trimmer found uneven wear and pin pointed the spot on her back which had a knot in and it was exactly where the back of the panels on the saddle sit. He recommended comfrey oil and regular massage. A back check is next on the list.

The hird pic is similar to my girls but it's not half as bad. interesting that you say it is obviously something she needs. Horses are so cool!



This thread has been really nteresting. Thanks for everyone's input.
 
Andalucian said:
but you get a vet to agree that the 3rd of Oberon's photos is acceptable!!!
Click to expand...

And yet I have seen vets happy to allow a farrier to attach an extension that big in steel to a horse with very odd action :rolleyes:

Personally I'd trust the horse. If it's sound with it and less sound if you try and take it away, why would you take it away?
 
My horse is very slightly pidgeon toed the deviation being between the bottom of the fetlock and the foot shod you could not see it as the farrier always made the foot look right.
He threw splints on the inside of the leg just below the knee was never lame but they persistently got bigger each time we tried to get him back to work.
Eventully I decided to remove the shoes and turn him away I saw how comfortable he was without shoes and having read all the BF stuff on here decided to have a go.
I started leading him around on lots of different surfaces and in time stared working him I was fairly horrified when flares ( not spectacular ones ) appeared on the inside of each front foot I by now had found a good trimmer and his view was he's doing that for a reason and we should leave it the vet was very anti this approach and wanted the flare chopped off but as the splints where visibly reabsorbing now I took a deep breath and went with the trimmer we will be at a year BF in October the flares have as the trimmer said they would , grown almost out they will be gone at his next trim and one splint has gone entirely and the other has reduced by two thirds .
I amnot sure what all this means but I think it may be that the splints where caused by the farrier trying in make a perfect looking foot .
 
claribella said:
Her diet is fine and has been since before she was barefoot. The only thing that hasnt been grea is the grass. The weather is making it grow too quick! It's not an option to keep her in though or she would be mentally unsound. Swings and roundabouts.

Sh is sound so no problems there. Has been a little footy on the stones a little while back when everyone horses on here seeed to be too. Fine now though.

Oberon you are right in saying my trimmer found uneven wear and pin pointed the spot on her back which had a knot in and it was exactly where the back of the panels on the saddle sit. He recommended comfrey oil and regular massage. A back check is next on the list.

The hird pic is similar to my girls but it's not half as bad. interesting that you say it is obviously something she needs. Horses are so cool!



This thread has been really nteresting. Thanks for everyone's input.
Click to expand...

Sounds like your trimmer is a keeper :)
 
My boy has grown a very slight medial flare/deviation on his fronts since being barefoot, however he is sound after navicular, collateral ligament damage and pedal osteitis and his white line is improving all the time as the new tighter hoof capsule grows down so I'm just leaving well alone, letting him self trim by doing roadwork 3 or 4 times a week. It's working for us. :)
 
Andalucian said:
IMO medial flare on hind feet is invariably caused by medial/lateral imbalance in the trim applied. I know others above won't agree with me, but you get a vet to agree that the 3rd of Oberon's photos is acceptable!!!
Click to expand...

so if you balance the foot perfectly and it comes back (as it invariably does) what then?
Leaving aside metabolic flare I think the problem comes from higher up and it is a chiropractor/body worker the horse needs not a trimmer.

If the horse in the 3rd pic was sound with the flare what would you, as a trimmer, do as a matter of interest? Leave it and see what happened or remove it and make the horse sore?
just interested.
 
By balancing the foot correctly, the flare desists, if it doesn't, then of course a body worker's advice is needed. Working these two professions together, flares like this don't occur.

Soreness does not happen if you know what you're doing.
 
Andalucian said:
By balancing the foot correctly, the flare desists, if it doesn't, then of course a body worker's advice is needed. Working these two professions together, flares like this don't occur.
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Surely it's possible, just as humans aren't perfectly symmetrical or aligned, for a horse to have an imbalance higher in the body which is just the way it is made (or has ended up after an injury), and nothing that a bodyworker can do anything to correct, which would cause it to grow lateral or medial extensions to the feet in order to balance the body?

Just to be clear, are you saying that in your experience all extensions can be removed by "correct" balancing of the feet, or just the medial (inside) hind ones that the original poster has described?

I've seen a number of horses which grow lateral extensions on front or hind feet which, if removed, either mildly lame the horse or simply grow back. My hunter has a matching pair on his weaker diagonal when not doing a full workload and my dressage boy has a windswept front foot which perfectly matches the angle at which the front leg which it's on the end of hits the floor. It makes a perfect line of equal stress right up through his fetlock, knee, elbow and shoulder joints. If I was to "correct" that foot, he would have unequal loading on all those joints, because his leg does not come out of his shoulder straight, it's just the way he's made.

I'm not sure whether we are all actually talking about the same thing here? Are all flares avoidable with good trimming, or only some, and if only some how do we tell which?
 
A mare that has just gone barefoot behind (to begin with) has amazing orthotic growth/flare/deviation. Both her hinds look like church bells!

I know if I trim them and balance them as per andalucian's way, I could not be able to hack her as her feet will have lost the support they need as her lateral cartilages and frog are not yet strong enough to do away with her balancing "wheels".

Also, they match perfectly the shape of the sole (triangular). She has only been out of shoes since March. Interestingly, the new growth (near enough reaching the ground now) is straight as a die. When she is ready, her "wheels" will be discarded - cracks will form and they will chip. This is when I know I will need to trim it very slowly, every week maybe, until the frog, lateral cartilage, sole and new angle of hoof wall can take her weight happily.

If they don't disappear... well, I will understand that sometimes, we need life's balancing "wheels" to help keep the rest of our body straight.

If it was a flare of the kind that look like it's a white line infection or something external, then yes, I will investigate and remove as it's obviously in the way.
 
cptrayes said:
Surely it's possible, just as humans aren't perfectly symmetrical or aligned, for a horse to have an imbalance higher in the body which is just the way it is made (or has ended up after an injury), and nothing that a bodyworker can do anything to correct, which would cause it to grow lateral or medial extensions to the feet in order to balance the body?

Just to be clear, are you saying that in your experience all extensions can be removed by "correct" balancing of the feet, or just the medial (inside) hind ones that the original poster has described?

I've seen a number of horses which grow lateral extensions on front or hind feet which, if removed, either mildly lame the horse or simply grow back.

I'm not sure whether we are all actually talking about the same thing here? Are all flares avoidable with good trimming, or only some, and if only some how do we tell which?
Click to expand...

I would be interested in the reply in this as well as I am inclined to agree
with your first para.
One of ours is certainly not the perfect specimen and when he came he flared on the inside of the hinds with the inside (medial) wall always higher.
However much this was or is balanced it grows back within a VERY short period of time. He is adamant that it stays.
He has regular chiro treatments and after his first treatment when lots of work was found necessary to his back end there was improvement. As he is now working more and improving one hind is far less "imbalanced" and flared than the other. I know without doubt he still has body issues in one side and even with chiro treatment I suspect this flaring will remain as it is simply the way he is imperfectly made. (the WL is tight, diet very controlled so we are not talking metabolic here)

The same horse also has flaring on the inside (medial side) of each front foot. (WL is again tight) one rasp stroke on there and the horse will be sore. Again he is adamant this stays. A conventional barefoot trim and he would he very sore. Leave alone and he goes happily over rocks, sounds to be a similar situation to yours CPT ie just the way he's made.:)
 
MY 17hh shire cross who jumps 6ft for fun was the most one-sided horse I ever broke, at six years old. He arrived with a front foot badly asymmetric and the hind on the same diagonal with a flare to the outside. The asymmetric front fixed itself, pretty much, and the more he is schooled, the less flare he has. But if he stops work for a holiday, back it comes, so there is something in his basic way of moving that makes him need these extensions. If I rasp them off he is perfectly sound, but they are back within days. He has also been checked by a physio and is fine, body-wise.

I just wish for other people's sake that there was some easy rule we could give them as to when to leave them and when to remove them. Mine at the moment would be - try a cautious amount of removal. If the horse is less comfortable, or they grow back really quickly, don't touch them again.

But I'm not a paid trimmer, so I don't see that many, and Andalucian is, so I'm very interested in her view of when she would remove them and when she would leave them, it's such a grey area.

I know that there are farriers who subscribe to the view that allowing the foot to be an imperfect shape will perpetuate any wrong action in the leg above and become a self-reinforcing cycle. Having seen the way my hunter's flares come and go depending on how much work he is doing with a rider keeping him straight, and also having had a horse with spavins whose hind feet changed shape week by week with the weather (cold and wet made the pain worse and they grew different height heels), I actually doubt that. From what I have seen, I believe that if an injury can resolve, it does and the foot changes as it recovers.
 
cptrayes said:
Just to be clear, are you saying that in your experience all extensions can be removed by "correct" balancing of the feet, or just the medial (inside) hind ones that the original poster has described?
Click to expand...

Medial hind flares is what I was referring to, as per the opening post. So far, in 7 years I haven't found one that didn't come right, without soreness, when correct foot balance and physio was applied. I don't take the flare so much, I just correct the medial lateral balance from the sole level which causes it to be generated.
 
OK gotcha, you are correcting uneven wall height when judged from the sole plane, and when you correct that, then inside flares on the hinds disappear if the horse also has the correct physio. I can see that, ta.
 
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