Barefoot people...advice pls! Lots of photos!

[catembi]

Potted history..Trev is an ex-racer who has always been shod. He had KS surgery at the beginning of June - 3 processes removed & one ligament snip. He was due to be shod about 2 weeks later, but we weren't sure whether he would be comfy holding his feet up for long enough to be shod, so as he was doing box rest followed by field rest, we decided to take his shoes off. He was pottery to start with, but now nearly 6 weeks on, he is actually looking okay. Farrier is due on Tues & as we're only starting lungeing in the school v gradually, I was thinking of leaving him BF for now...

Would I be mad to think about leaving him BF permanently? If he comes right, we'll be doing BD & BS on surfaces. I already did a post in Comp Riders & have established that sj on a surface is likely to be fine...grass not so fine... I hack out once or twice a month at most (scared of the road) & was thinking maybe scoot boots for hacking? (I've read the Rockley Farm blog.)

Lots of photos...apols if huge but I am rubbish at photobucket. What do people think of his feet? What's going on with them? Persist with BF or is it madness...? Happy to be told that his feet look rubbish & that I'm nuts...can soon get shoes on if needed!

Shod...not ideal, but can't find a better one...

4 weeks ago...

Today

 

[googol]

Sorry not got much to say. The experts are likely to ask about his diet so it might help to put details of his feed on here. His frogs don't look too bad but I'm interested to hear what people think about the cracks. I imagine when ur further down the bf journey his feet will look ALOT shorter (for the better)

 

[catembi]

Oh okay...diet is out 24/7 altho we have little grass as we're on sand & it doesn't grow well, hay, alfa-a, alfa-beet & weight gain cubes. He has previously been scoped & treated for ulcers & is now on aloeride. I know that cubes aren't great for feet or ulcers, but he does need *something* to keep weight on. The aloe seems to have sorted him out internally as he looks amazing - really shiny & far happier & more relaxed. He was utterly miserable when he had ulcers & didn't shed his winter coat.

T x

 

[FfionWinnie]

How is he coping? If you're going to do it, doing it while he's not in full work anyway would be a good time to start. I don't think his feet look bad at all.

If he's mostly on grass and a surface I can't see you having problems in the short term. In the longer term you might want stud holes (or you might not!).

If he's sound then I would bash on (also I would bash on if he wasn't sound BUT because you've had the KS op you won't want to add BF paranoias into the mix if that makes sense). Tarmac is great for BF. Stoney tracks not so great for the start. Lots of venues have stoney car parks that would be my main consideration but he's presumably a long way from being at a venue at this stage due to the op so why not give it a go.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Make sure that his feed doesn't have molasses (sometimes called molglo) in. Micronised linseed is fab for poor doers and is BF friendly. Look into vit&min supplements eg Pro Hoof, Pro Balance, Forage Plus or Equivita.

His hind hooves aren't too bad, but the fores are very shoe sick with long toes and under-run heels. The horn quality is poor at the moment, but should improve with diet changes. Don't worry about the chips as long as he isn't sore, as it is all the excess length is coming off. Do check the frogs as they are a bit raggy and make sure that there is no thrush lurking. I would expect him to grow down a much better hoof angle from now on.

It's a shame that he's not happy on the roads as IME the best thing for newly deshod hooves is walking on smooth tarmac (build up distances slowly). If he is less scared in-hand and you have a nice bit of tarmac available, walking on it, even for 15 mins every day would help. Tarmac is also fab for keeping y never been shod horses' hooves looking great.

You want him to stop toe first landing, if that's what he's doing at the moment.

Boots are great if the horse needs them to be comfortable and comfort is key.

 

[catembi]

He's okay on the roads; it's me that's scared! He used to be on micronised linseed, but we ran out & I didn't get around to getting another sack. Will get some more. Will also check his food for molasses - thank you. We started on the aloe for ulcers, but I've read that it's fab for hoof growth & quality, so I'm hoping it will help.

Maybe once we start doing ridden work (wk 19; we start lungeing next w'end which is wk 12) we could go up the road as far as the corner & then come back, which would be 15 mins... I wouldn't lead on that road as it's not good.

The long vertical cracks in the front feet have been there for a good 6 to 9 months, maybe longer - i.e. well before shoes came off.

I'm v interested in this whole BF thing - I've read that they grow a hoof in the shape they need. My old girl lived to 40, but did a tendon at 29, & she grew an odd-shaped hoof that helped her get back to being functional - she was unshod behind. Like a remedial shoe, but a natural one, if you see what I mean. The ex-racers seem to have navicular etc type issues, & I wonder if Trev would stay sound for longer if his feet were at the angle that his own body chose...

I've been a bit eeeep at the state of the front feet, but comparing with Rockley, I think we're having a transition where the toes are trying to shorten & the heels are trying to grow.

T x

 

[Red-1]

Hi, sorry my Internet is on a go slow and I can't see many photos.

To my eye the look better already, and it is encouraging that he is feeling OK even though it is summer ground.

I would want the edges rounded off so they do not split further. I would get a pro to help get the trim right, either farrier or trimmer, as long as they are locally recommended. Once you have the foot going the right way and hand walk, then I have found if I just round the edges they pretty much self trim.

I can only see one frog photo, but it looks as if it may have thrush in the centre. I would soak in Cleantrax, as this seems to be a big hit to thrush. With my horse I have kept his feet super clean, I have also found that hand walking on the road wears the foot smooth and also makes the frog weight bear. If the frog is free of thrush then the horse will feel free to use it, and will develop confidence in using the frog as a weight bearing cushion.

Walking on the road really seems to make the hoof look more healthy.

I have used boots, initially Cavallo Simple as they are a more flexible fit, then once the feet morphed into their preferred size I got a fit kit for Easyboot Gloves. I walk or ride for some of the ride, then dismount and hand walk back barefoot. It has taken 9 months but he is now OK for 40 minutes riding barefoot on the road and has finally started to feel better on gravel.

It is simplified, but I was told 18 moths to "transition". I initially thought this would be too long, but at 9 months Jay has grown a new hoof, but you can see where the hoof has grown from, and it is tighter where he has been barefoot, and more upright. At the heels it is now to the floor, and the white line is tight, but at the toe it still has an inch to grow, and here the white line is not as tight. As I understand it once the white line is tight all round then the hoof will be stronger, and the coffin bone will be carried higher up as the hooves become concave. At this time the gravel will be no problem.

Jay's feel looked FAB at three months or so, once the nail holes had grown out, he had good feet to start with. I now understand how weak they still were though.

For feed it is low starch and low sugar. Jay is on turnout, hay, and Pure Easy. I also add Pro Hoof, as this is high in copper and low in iron, good for bare feet. He is also on Magnesium (half dose) and table salt. If he loses weight he will also have Equi Jewel which is high in rice bran oil. In fact I have not researched that for barefoot, but I have a bin full!

I took Jay's shoes off for 4 months in November, but have become fascinated with the progress, and he is still without.

He has been happy on surfaces, on grass and when on the beach. I think I will have to give up eventing if he stays barefoot as many events seem to use gravel, especially in water jumps. If I do SJ at the moment I am only sure it is OK on surfaces. At a comp I will use his boots to get him across gravel car parks, then leave them in a bag on the fence of the collecting ring.

Even if you do shoe back up for jumping, I think that the longer you can do barefoot will only be to the good for his long term hoof strength. If I do re-shoe Jay I will let him do half the year barefoot still.

I am not a barefoot pro or anything, but that is my experience!

 

[SpringArising]

I think you're doing the right thing in keeping him barefoot. There's no way I'd want shoes on his feet but especially not right now (sorry, couldn't work out if that's what the farrier was coming for or not).

I think as long as you keep him going BF, with careful exercise & management, they're going to look completely different in six months' time.

 

[tallyho!]

I think you're doing the right thing! Take it slow and keep on doing all the research you're doing.

Look, I think the feet do look a bit raggedy at the moment but they are all flaking and cracked which is due to poor balance (flat, underrun and loooong toes... I can't see a matching pair of feet, no offence but did your farrier actually trim them like that?) & the diet needs a tweak. Going forward with the surgery, I think getting a good balance in order to move and heal well and be supple, it's essential you find someone who can balance those feet.

Faracat has good advice there for diet. Minerals are essential but I couldn't get this mare I have now sound on anything. She is out 24/7 doesn't have anything and is sound bf, except maybe very pointy stones and so I assume the grass has it all. So, it depends and you will find a formula that works for you. My advice is get your forage tested then you know what you need if anything. Otherwise, it is just expensive wee!

The feet need to get stronger and you can't do that if the horse is sensitive on any surface. Tarmac is perfect for bf but if not comfortable then boot. Cavallo, Equine Fusion, Easyboot... so many. Just choose a well fitting pair. Then you can stride out and build up the inner foot structures that is so essential. Just remember that a bf horse when sound will move differently to a shod horse. It's something you get used to and eventually appreciate!

And hey, at least the hooves will have had a break from shoes and will be much healthier already for it

 

[Scarlett]

His feet look like typical just out of shoes tb feet! They will benefit greatly from some time out of shoes to sort out the contracted heels, weak frogs and poor angles.
I have 4 barefoot exracers all in work, 2 out competing, they are fine on grass btw, and all hack, school etc. I only have footiness issues if they eat the wrong thing or have an internal issue, if they are footy something is wrong, it's not their feet that's the issue!
Mine can't have alfalfa and 2 can't eat beet. I feed Equivita balancer with Mycosorb added and that has really helped. They get grass nuts, rice bran or linseed, plain chaff and the 2 in lots of work get Keyflow feeds. I also use a trimmer, not a farrier.
Good luck! There are more and more people with barefoot exracers who are competing and doing well

 

[DataLore]

I'd give him a month or two barefoot with regular farrier visits and see how he goes, and slowly condition the feet by soaking them daily (if possible), and walking him out on a variety of different terrain. If after that he's still tender, and doesn't appear like he would stand up to any real work or you'd be constantly having to coddle him to get it done, then put shoes back on. Barefoot doesn't work for every horse and in my experience it's great to give them a chance, but some horses no matter how hard you try or what you feed them will never be really happy on unshod feet.. at least not the ones that are expected to be anything more than pasture ornaments anyway. My own pony is barefoot and does extremely well (only needs hoofboots for endurance rides on very rough going), but the tb's I ride are shod, and not just because they're tb's.. they were given a good chance first. The new tb my YO is getting me to ride is currently unshod but seems to be doing quite poorly, and he initially had very similarly shaped feet to yours. He's on his last week of 'see how it goes' but it's looking like he'll definitely need at least front shoes on.

I will say good for you for considering this though, as I do think barefoot gives a generally nicer feel to horse and rider and most people don't even think about giving it a go. I'm wishing you all the luck in the world with your endeavors!

 

[Achinghips]

Google Thunderbrooks base mix and their chaff or another company is red rufus, the feed is called Agrobs (all pesticide and chemical free). Micronised linseed too to keep weight on. Avoid molasses, Alfa, starch and anything with soya oil. Good quality haylage or hay and farrier visits every six weeks.

The only supplement recommended by my farrier is Equimins hoof mender.
Try the fb page Barefoot Owners UK

Hth's

 

[FfionWinnie]

I think walking on tarmac enough to trim his own feet will be far more likely to be successful than regular farrier visits. If you are worried about the chips run a rasp round them every couple of days (talking tiny amount here). You could use the road work as a cool down after he's worked if you aren't keen on hacking.

Relatively speaking, his feet are not the worst, and they have already improved.

 

[catembi]

Thank you for all the opinions! I think I can see what's wrong with his front feet - I've read lots of the Rockley blog & compared their before & after photos with his feet. We are going to try another 6 weeks without shoes, during which we'll start lungeing & get as far as first sit-on, & we'll see how he is.

He was pottery when the shoes first came off, and is already looking a lot more confident, & trotting about looking sound, so we shall see what happens. It's roadwork & jumping on grass that concerns me, and it would also be v v hard to boot at comps to get from car park to arena at an event as he turns into a raving psychopath at comps, & it's all I can do to get him tacked up & stay on him. I wouldn't have a prayer of messing about with his feet! But he's totally unfit & not even back in ridden work atm, might never come right & I've got no transport, so maybe we'll cross the 'what to do at comps' bridge if & when we come to it!

T x

 

[ester]

I missed the pics/thread to start with!

I don't think you can boot for BS/BD anyway in the rules. If I were you I would see how it goes and if you find yourself wanting to get out on grass a lot in the summer just shoe for that then have them off again, Goldenstar does similar for one of hers.

The only thing which I don't think has been mentioned but is quite important is that if they are feeling their feet a bit they do tend to use themselves differently/get a bit muscle sore which you might want to watch while doing the KS rehab/regular bodywork/physio.

Also do not be surprised if a few weeks down the line he gets a bit footier again, this tends to happen as the feet wake up/blood supply increases etc. I do think time out of shoes will do his fronts the world of good though and will only enable him to support himself better in the long run. I'd agree with Ffion that light road walking would be better than actual trimming but if the road isn't up to doing that in hand I understand.

Re. feeding and the weight gain cubes I would err on using micronised linseed and coolstance copra instead if you can.

If you do let the farrier trim him - no proper frog/bar/sole trimming

 

[Bernster]

Been reading this with interest. I took my mare's shoes off about 10 weeks ago and she has fairly typical TB feet. It's so interesting to watch how they change in even a few weeks. I've struggled to get her a balancer that she will eat (not normally fussy). Take regular pics to compare as it's hard when you see them all the time, and I def spot things when I look closely at her pics.

 

[ester]

bernster have you tried equimins?

Although since I moved over to agrobs feed we apparently can eat anything.... :rolleyes3:

 

[tallyho!]

Thank you for all the opinions! I think I can see what's wrong with his front feet - I've read lots of the Rockley blog & compared their before & after photos with his feet. We are going to try another 6 weeks without shoes, during which we'll start lungeing & get as far as first sit-on, & we'll see how he is.

He was pottery when the shoes first came off, and is already looking a lot more confident, & trotting about looking sound, so we shall see what happens. It's roadwork & jumping on grass that concerns me, and it would also be v v hard to boot at comps to get from car park to arena at an event as he turns into a raving psychopath at comps, & it's all I can do to get him tacked up & stay on him. I wouldn't have a prayer of messing about with his feet! But he's totally unfit & not even back in ridden work atm, might never come right & I've got no transport, so maybe we'll cross the 'what to do at comps' bridge if & when we come to it!

T x

You have absolutely the right attitude to this I have to say. It's always suck it and see wit bf transitions...

Take it as it comes is my advice and hey, if it's not what you can work with, go back to shoes knowing you've given those feet a welcome and healthy break.

Don't forget to keep us posted

 

[Bernster]

bernster have you tried equimins?

Although since I moved over to agrobs feed we apparently can eat anything.... :rolleyes3:

Hiya - nope but I think that might be next on the list. Is that the pelleted one? I've tried forageplus and equivita, both resulted in a turned up nose, so would like to try something that's not in powder form which might be the issue (looking suspiciously like medicine perhaps!). Either that or I could see what Hack Up can do as a mixed joint and foot supp.

 

[Beausmate]

Those feet look like they have the potential to be very good. They are a lot like my friend's ex-racer, who had been shod since she was a yearling (flat racer) and finally had her shoes off at around 12 years old. No special diet, just no processed, molasses based commercial stuff.

She can go over any surface, car park gravel would be nothing to her! So that might be something you don't need to worry about, just see how it goes.

 

[catembi]

Kind of a development...the farrier didn't turn up today, which is v unlike him... I have now found out that he will be out of circulation for several years (prison...100% unrelated to horses/shoeing...) so I am now emailing a barefoot trimmer! I am really genuinely interested in finding out more about this & seeing if it will work for us!

T x

 

[ester]

Hiya - nope but I think that might be next on the list. Is that the pelleted one? I've tried forageplus and equivita, both resulted in a turned up nose, so would like to try something that's not in powder form which might be the issue (looking suspiciously like medicine perhaps!). Either that or I could see what Hack Up can do as a mixed joint and foot supp.

It comes pelleted and powder, both stink! I had my lad on the pellets for several years and used to be able to feed them by hand but he started to go off them a bit recently and leave a few in the bottom of his bowl so they sent me some powder to try and all good (if you ask them nicely they will send you some samples ). I don't think the spec is quite as high as the forageplus (I do add some extra magnesium on top as am in a high calcium area).

 

[tallyho!]

Kind of a development...the farrier didn't turn up today, which is v unlike him... I have now found out that he will be out of circulation for several years (prison...100% unrelated to horses/shoeing...) so I am now emailing a barefoot trimmer! I am really genuinely interested in finding out more about this & seeing if it will work for us!

T x

Crikey! A dramatic twist of fate!

Make sure your trimmer is qualified with the only two schools approved by LANTRA which is UKNHCP & EPAUK

 

[catembi]

Thank you for the advice, Tallyho. I checked & the trimmer I was interested in isn't qualified with either... Will keep looking.

Soooo excited - we were due to start lungeing today under our KS rehab plan from the vets. Just did 10 mins, 5 mins on each rein & he was so good! He was overtracking nicely, as sound as if he'd got shoes on (if I didn't know he was barefoot, I wouldn't have guessed), reaching for a contact & keeping himself forward without any encouragement. Pre KS surgery, he would keep stopping every few strides. Let's hope it continues! We've got to lunge for 5 weeks & then we can start ridden work. Yippee, it's looking as if (touch wood) we might be back in business!

T x

 

[tallyho!]

yay!! *claps*