Barefoot Questions

[rlhnlk]

I have a few questions that I'm looking for some help with. As mentioned in another post recently my mare has had her back shoes off for around 10 weeks now and seems to be coping extremely well with this. What I'm looking for is some advice on the following:

1. If the back feet have coped well, how likely are the front feet to be fine.

2. What signs of bilateral hind lameness would there be just in case I'm missing that.

3. If the diet seems currently to be fine, even though the spring grass is coming through, does this make it unlikely that the grass will cause more sensitivity.

4. What can I do to encourage the foot to start supporting itself before taking the shoes off?

Also a complicated one. I have an old retired pony who is arthritic and has occasional mild laminitis. The laminitis is nearly always relating to hard ground, I know how skeptical people can be of that, but it literally is a case of her bouncing round when the ground is soft and then immediately struggling when the ground goes hard, not necessarily footy just not moving easily. The arthritis comes into play with this aswell as I think there is a jarring effect. I need to stress that this pony is in an 'as long as she's happy she's here' situation. She get's 2 danilon a day for comfort, has heart bar shoes all round, and only goes out for about half an hour every other day while the ground is solid (grass consumption definitly not the issue). I promise she is happy with this, however unnatural, she smiles and has her routine that she sticks to and so on.

Nowe what my question is with her is would any of you consider trying barefoot with her? She's pidgeon toed in front and has been at least for 15 years now, her shoeing helps take some of the strain of this. What keeps crossing my mind is along the lines of barefoot and then turn out in hoof boots with some kind of shock absorbsion in the soles (I've not looked into these and don't even know if they exist). Her diet is ok, her weight is ok, officially she has been tested for cushings and insulin resistance and is clear. Any idea's welcome on this one as ideally I would like her to work up to more turnout that she currently has.

 

[be positive]

Re the laminitic pony, yes I would take her shoes off, I have a laminitic that had some rotation he was in heartbars for about 3 weeks 12 months ago on vets advice but my farrier prefers them unshod, he can trim more regularly, every 2 weeks at one time and I can be more aware of any signs of footyness before it develops further.
He is now turned out daily for 4 hours and progressing well in light work and hopefully will get back to full work over the summer.

I also have a horse that had hinds off last October followed by fronts off 6 weeks later he is doing well with no real changes to diet, has competed SJ over the winter and he should be busy in the spring doing more, so go for it with yours.

I forgot to mention the 33 year old that had his shoes off this winter he is also doing well and moving better without them, he does some light work, has cushings but is not laminitic, can be slightly careful on stones ok in the arena and on grass.

 

[rlhnlk]

Thanks for that, how was your laminitic when you took the shoes off? Did you do anything to help the transition? I'm fairly sure that at the start at least she'd be crippled and would need help with it!

 

[rlhnlk]

Anyone else got any information I can use?

 

[Nocturnal]

I'll try and give my opinion on your q's...
1, not necessarily a good indication, horses can often manage fine without hinds, but find removing fronts more of a challenge.

2, not tracking up properly, and any new signs of discomfort during ridden work.

3, you may not notice any problems with the diet until fronts come off, so don't write off diet as a potential source of any problems encountered.

4, not sure what you mean by this one... All you can do to prepare the foot is get the diet as good as loss, and don't trim the frog or sole, or take too much off when the shoes are taken off.

Hope that helps a bit

Re the pony, tbh if sound and happy, and any problems may mean the end of the road, I would be inclined to leave as is. I doubt that the shoes are helping her pigeon toes, though .

 

[Oberon]

I have a few questions that I'm looking for some help with. As mentioned in another post recently my mare has had her back shoes off for around 10 weeks now and seems to be coping extremely well with this. What I'm looking for is some advice on the following:

1. If the back feet have coped well, how likely are the front feet to be fine.

2. What signs of bilateral hind lameness would there be just in case I'm missing that.

3. If the diet seems currently to be fine, even though the spring grass is coming through, does this make it unlikely that the grass will cause more sensitivity.

4. What can I do to encourage the foot to start supporting itself before taking the shoes off?

1. Front feet can be somewhat more of a challenge.

There are different schools of thought for this - that it's because the front takes more weight and are subject to more strain than the hinds.
OR that the fronts bear less weight when the horse is in movement as the hinds are the engine, so the hinds are often better conditioned.
OR that the horse can ignore footiness in the hinds while they have fronts on but can't cope with pain in all four feet....

I see truth in all theories, but am on the fence. The main point is that the fronts can be more sensitive. I (personally) would have a pair of boots on standby to keep her comfortable while she fixes her feet. And just take things steady AND GIVE HER TIME.

2. I'm not an expert on this as it's more of a feeling I get when I look at a horse, than something I can explain. Footiness would be shorter strides, a look of being tense or uncomfortable, taking different lengths of stride on harder ground, one hip moving more than the other.....Owners tend to see it before anyone else.

3. Only your horse will tell. My horse's hooves look less than textbook at this time of year, but they are still sound. There will be a horse down the block that will be lame and there will be another who is impervious to spring
The take home message is that spring grass footiness is the horse communicating that things aren't great internally. It's a warning to improve things and there are ways to do this for the horse's benefit. Shoes don't prevent these internal problems, they prevent the horse feeling them (until it becomes an acute attack of lami).

4. Diet is the only thing you can do. I suspect you have already done this. Extra magnesium at this time of year can be helpful. I would get some boots ready for her to wear until she doesn't need them any more.

 

[rlhnlk]

Thanks Nocturnal, that really helps with the front shoes off thing.

With the pony, that's kind of the problem, she isn't sound at the moment. As soon as the ground goes hard, like it is now, she struggles. If it's wet and soft she's fine. But that's why I'm looking for something that's going to be more comfortable, she is happy but it would be nice for her to be able to have a bit more turnout time with a bit more comfort. Does anyone know how dramatic the difference in support would be bewteen heart bar shoes and boots with gel pads?

 

[Oberon]

Also a complicated one. I have an old retired pony who is arthritic and has occasional mild laminitis. The laminitis is nearly always relating to hard ground, I know how skeptical people can be of that, but it literally is a case of her bouncing round when the ground is soft and then immediately struggling when the ground goes hard, not necessarily footy just not moving easily. The arthritis comes into play with this aswell as I think there is a jarring effect. I need to stress that this pony is in an 'as long as she's happy she's here' situation. She get's 2 danilon a day for comfort, has heart bar shoes all round, and only goes out for about half an hour every other day while the ground is solid (grass consumption definitly not the issue). I promise she is happy with this, however unnatural, she smiles and has her routine that she sticks to and so on.

Nowe what my question is with her is would any of you consider trying barefoot with her? She's pidgeon toed in front and has been at least for 15 years now, her shoeing helps take some of the strain of this. What keeps crossing my mind is along the lines of barefoot and then turn out in hoof boots with some kind of shock absorbsion in the soles (I've not looked into these and don't even know if they exist). Her diet is ok, her weight is ok, officially she has been tested for cushings and insulin resistance and is clear. Any idea's welcome on this one as ideally I would like her to work up to more turnout that she currently has.

I would like to see pics of her hooves.

It's got to be whatever you think is best for her and will keep her comfy in her last days, be it shod or not.

You do not get laminitis without a weakness to the laminae. So the hard ground will be aggravating the weakness and causing more ripping and pain.

The laminae will be weak for a reason - we need to find why. A pic of the side wall at ground level would help. Shoes load the horse on that weak laminae on the walls, which weren't designed to carry the horse entirely full-time. The heart bares are an attempt to spread the load and engage the caudal hoof. They can bring relief for a while but they are rarely a cure.

You will find long term shoeing of pigeon toed horses and arthritis often go hand in hand. Hooves will tend to adapt if allowed to, but the shoes mean they can't adapt, so the strain will go to the joints (this in my opinion FWIW).

There are boots and pads that provide cushioning.

If you wanted to take the pony BF - I would urge you to find a barefoot specialist in your area who can come for a consultation and see her in the flesh and advise you either way, plus fit the boots and pads for you before the shoes came off.

Diet would be critical - getting the minerals right etc.

 

[Oberon]

Thanks Nocturnal, that really helps with the front shoes off thing.

With the pony, that's kind of the problem, she isn't sound at the moment. As soon as the ground goes hard, like it is now, she struggles. If it's wet and soft she's fine. But that's why I'm looking for something that's going to be more comfortable, she is happy but it would be nice for her to be able to have a bit more turnout time with a bit more comfort. Does anyone know how dramatic the difference in support would be bewteen heart bar shoes and boots with gel pads?

I suspect it could be the back of her hoof that's struggling, rather than the laminae/sole.

The heart bars are an attempt to support the back of her hoof.

But taking the horse bare will DEVELOP the back.

 

[rlhnlk]

Thanks Oberon, that's really helpful. Diet is as sorted as possible, she's on a very low starch feed, with brewers yeast, I haven't touched magnesium much with her because my gut feeling is that she isn't at all deficient in that area, the brewers yeast on the other hand had a magical and dramatic effect on her temprement which I think has covered her nutrition. It sounds like a pair of boots would be handy to have around as a just in case.

From what you're all saying about the bilateral lameness I think that she's fine there. She was short behind to start with and struggled to track up but that stopped after a couple of weeks and she's been great, she's stomping over the stony bits now as if they were grassy tracks.

Looks like I'll invest in a pair of boots and get those front shoes off then

 

[rlhnlk]

I would like to see pics of her hooves.

It's got to be whatever you think is best for her and will keep her comfy in her last days, be it shod or not.

You do not get laminitis without a weakness to the laminae. So the hard ground will be aggravating the weakness and causing more ripping and pain.

The laminae will be weak for a reason - we need to find why. A pic of the side wall at ground level would help. Shoes load the horse on that weak laminae on the walls, which weren't designed to carry the horse entirely full-time. The heart bares are an attempt to spread the load and engage the caudal hoof. They can bring relief for a while but they are rarely a cure.

You will find long term shoeing of pigeon toed horses and arthritis often go hand in hand. Hooves will tend to adapt if allowed to, but the shoes mean they can't adapt, so the strain will go to the joints (this in my opinion FWIW).

There are boots and pads that provide cushioning.

If you wanted to take the pony BF - I would urge you to find a barefoot specialist in your area who can come for a consultation and see her in the flesh and advise you either way, plus fit the boots and pads for you before the shoes came off.

Diet would be critical - getting the minerals right etc.

Her arthritis and her laminits are quite linked I think. Her arthritis affects her near fore the most, when she was last x-rayed there was a lot of cloudiness around all the joints down to her pedal bone, from the outside you can feel the ridges. In turn I think this has meant her off fore has over compensated for most of her life, this leg has a pretty big splint which has been there about 6 years, and this is the foot that is worst with laminitis. In a mild attack it can sometimes only be this foot which is affected. From x-rays it's also this foot which had the most rotation, 14 deg as opposed to the other foot which had 7 deg.

I haven't any pics to hand, I can try and get some later, the only pics I have are her x-rays from last time but her feet have improved a bit since then.

With regards her diet, it's currently low starch and she gets the brewers yeast too, would you look at blood testing to see if there are deficiencies there?

 

[Oberon]

Blood testing isn't helpful except whole blood selenium.

Forage testing gives a better indication of what may be missing in her diet.

If this isn't an option, then there are two supplements on the market that mimic the trends seen in UK forage. They contain digestive aids too.

Brewer's yeast is an aid for the hind gut's bacteria but is a poor source of minerals.

Just to say - if you wanted to remove the shoes, she may be absolutely fine and dandy with no changes....but I always like to prepare for the worst.

I'd hate for any horse to be uncomfortable.

 

[rlhnlk]

Which are the supplements that would cover most deficiencies? She get's benevit aswell which I'd forgotten because she's not been on it long so hopefully there isn't too much missing. Magnesium is the only one which springs to mind.

When you say prepare for the worst, are you talking about the worst worst, or do you mean do every bit of available preparation and changes to help?
You also mentioned earlier about it being the backs of her feet that are potentially the problem. what signs would you look for if it was this?

I hate her being uncomfortable, but at the moment at least her happiness outweighs that. As long as she gets some turnout she's ok, and she has her routine through the day for when she gets fed, has a snooze etc, theres always company and she has a massive window so she gets a good view and she sunbathes when it's sunny. I just wish I could help her feet a bit more.

 

[Oberon]

She may well be fine on the supplement you are using.

I've pmd you the others for future reference.

When I say prepare for the worst, I mean I prepare for the shoes to come off and the horse go, "OMG I'M DYING."

.

I dislike being accused of allowing horses to be sore for the principle of BF - so I like owners to have a bag of tricks to use if needed.

The back of the hoof tends to fall out of function and atrophy with shoes and the horse will land toe-first as the back is too weak to bear weight comfortably. This toe-first landing causes wear and tear to the laminae as well as the tendons and joints.

My old boy was shod for 13 years and had his shoes removed at age 17. Nine years later and he'll only reliably land heel first in deep mud, despite the best I can provide. This is because I can't provide the environment and work he needs to develop properly - but as all he does is go for the odd hack, it doesn't matter to him....It just pisses me off to watch him

.

 

[rlhnlk]

Thanks for that Oberon, that's been really really helpful.

She's not the kind to go OMG I'M DYING!! She's a proper little trooper, it makes it harder to spot what's going on sometimes though, much much easier when they're diva's for spotting problems.

Think I might try her with her shoes off and see how she gets on. If it's too bad I can put the shoes back on and rethink. She can alternate between her deep shavings bed and then have hoof boots with gel pads on to see how she copes with that. I'm praying in my head that her feet might just possibly take the same size as my TB's but I'm probably not going to be that lucky. I can always increase her bute for a few days to help aswell.

She can walk about en pointe if she likes, as long as she's happy and walking then I don't care how