Barefoot! Standing on frogs! Help!!!

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xxtasha21xx

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Hi all any advice i would really appreciate!!

My farrier cant get back shoes on my 7yr old ISH. I've never had this problem before but his hoof wall is too thin to take nails and chipping around the edges. He's foot sore on concrete but fine on grass.Today I noticed when measuring for hoof boots that his frog is sitting higher than his sole/wall. Not by much, but theoretically he is walking on his frogs!

People have suggested glueing shoes on but I don't want to go down this root as 1) expensive 2) can come off 3) most Importantly - can hide underlying issues!

I am worried about him walking on his frogs and what damage this can do to him?! He's on a diet of Hifi original, garlic, biotin and hay.

Wil try to add some Pics tomorrow

Any advice opinions would
Be great! Thanks x
 
This can be quite normal on hind feet. Just keep him off surfaces that he is sore on and his frogs will pack down in a few days and he should be fine. Footsore on concrete is not unusual in a newly unshod horse. Keep him off concrete :) !
 
Nature didn't put anything on the bottom of the hoof that wasn't meant to bear weight.
Shoes mean the walls bear all the weight.
But the whole of the underside of the hoof is supposed to work together to bear weight and dissipate force. No one structure is meant to work alone.
The frog in BF horse is bigger, meatier and denser than a shod. It is a pump, a suspension device and a traction aid.

If you are worried then keep him on soft ground for a few weeks so the rest of the hoof can match up to the frogs. The soft ground will flow up into the bottom of the hoof and engage the whole of the bottom. Boots and a pad for hard ground.
If he is sore - DIET DIET DIET.....:)
 
Thanks for your help guys!

Oberon - you say diet? I've seen this mentioned a lot with BF, can u recommend a good diet for a transitioning BF horse? x
 
If there is any heat at all I would immediately treat as if laminitic, better safe than sorry, soaked hay no cereals perhaps a bit of speedi beet with a balancer etc, as mine have never (thankfully ) had Laminitus I'm not certain of exact details but it's important to keep sugar levels low.
 
xxtasha21xx said:
Oh I forgot to mention that there is quite a lot of heat in the hoof- is this normal? X
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Yes the heat is normal. First, barefoot feet are generally much warmer than shod ones. Second, if he is a little sore it will have brought more blood to his feet. That blood will allow him to build up hoof wall and sole callouses more rapidly than they might have done so there should be no problem with it.
 
Get sum pads and cut them to fit the inside of the boot . If u push sum plain paper in and draw round should b able to get the size.. then cut out a section at the back the same size and shape as the frog. This will put pressure on the walls and sole but not the frog.

Pressure stimulates growth so if all the pressure is on the frog and non on the walls it will take longer for the walls to grow but the frogs will get bigger and may 'splat '.

Diet is key, high fibre low sugar low starch (under 10%). I would prob ad a vit and min sup like equivit and magnesium and mayb quick beat.
:-)
 
They should not hold all of the weight. Ideally they should b a few millimeters shorter than the wall /heel so that when tho foot lands heel first and the heels expand slightly under the weight of the horse (and acts as a shock aborber ) the frogs come into contact with the ground and offers traction.

The weight should b distributed on the wall and sum of sole and frog throughout the movement of the foot.
 
Even after eighteen months my boy's frogs are pretty normal, they don't get trimmed at all, as I have been rasping off the hooves myself for nearly a year, farrier says he is fine, when doing lots of road work he was self trimming and frogs were just the same.
Assuming the hooves are warm [just body heat not hot]but as there are other problems just treat cautiously [maybe keep stabled on a deep bed during the day with a soaked haynet. If shod in front and not behind the hinds would be warmer.
You diet should cut out molasses [I currently [grass 24/7]used Dengie non molassed lo alfa]
Fast Fibre for basic mins and vits and to carry the supplement.
You can use any of the commonly recommend supplements which include Pro hoof [Ebay], or an Equimins product [I use Equimins Laminator plus Feedmark Steady up for magnesium]
The diet is low sugar, high fibre with micronised linseed for energy and skin, joint and hoof health. PLUS vitamins and minerals.
As the wall is so thin it suggests he has been lacking mins and vits, for some time, it will take a while [months] for significant improvement, I would get a rasp to round of the edges once a week or as often as needed as they are almost ound to chip, this will help a lot.
 
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Waltzing Matilda said:
Ideally they should b a few millimeters shorter than the wall /heel
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I have found that it is absolutely normal in back feet of hard working horses for the frog to appear to be higher, fractionally, than the hoof wall. And that in front feet, they are level, with the heels not below them. I believe that this is common in horses that do plenty of work and of no concern (perhaps even desireable?) if the horse is sound.
 
The prob Is if the frog is longer than the hoof wall and pressure stimulates growth then the frog will grow quicker than the walls. IME I have found they tend to b sore if most weight is on the frog and /or sole.

Most horses do not do enough work to actually wear their hooves down if their diet and trim are correct. My friend tried to 'trim' her horses feet by increasing road work as they were growing too fast but it just made them grow quicker!! I have had to teach her to trim between visits!!

However these ones inparticular like quite a lot of sole touching the ground and if u leave the hoof wall where it 'should be" they r foot, so I think there is def room for individual preference!!
 
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It's one of the cases where the best and brightest minds in hoof care would get round a dinner table and argue about which wine they wanted.

There are no hard and fast rules with hooves. We can all worry about shape and mathematic angles etc but at the end of the day the horse is the Master and we are the apprentices.

If the horse is sound - we should butt out and let him have his hooves whatever shape he wants them :D
 
cptrayes said:
I have found that it is absolutely normal in back feet of hard working horses for the frog to appear to be higher, fractionally, than the hoof wall. And that in front feet, they are level, with the heels not below them. I believe that this is common in horses that do plenty of work and of no concern (perhaps even desireable?) if the horse is sound.
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Yes I see this too .
Interestingly my shod driving horse has hind frogs that are level with the ground in shoes and they are not far off in front he was shod yesterday and the farrier was remarking that he's probably got the best feet he has ever shod and they where terrible when he came.
I think it's hard work and the BF diet he has ,he arrived with under run soles and flat feet and this improvement has been achieved without coming out of shoes we have seen huge changes in him since all the horses went onto BF type diet ,there's a lesson there.
 
Dab said:
Very interested in this thread. Can i ask the significance of asking about the deep slit between the heels?

I've noticed my horse has this on his boxier hoof, smelt a little thrushy yesterday so i have cleaned and will keep clean.
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Exactly for the reason you mention.

A contracted hoof will often have a deep sulcus and some nooks and crannies that get colonised by bacteria/fungus.

Thrush as the generic term is often made light of - but it is very serious, painful and damaging.

My Arab had sulcus thrush for 13 years with shoes on. No one ever mentioned it and there were no signs other than flinching when I picked his hooves out.
I just thought it was one of his quirks :confused:

Of course the first trimmer I used pointed it out straight away and told me how to treat it. Even gave me an information sheet to read. I felt such an idiot :(
His heels didn't relax and spread properly until we'd managed to kick the infection. It took a few months to get on top of it.
I've since learnt (kicking and screaming) the importance of diet rather than relying on topicals - so I'd be more efficient nowadays :rolleyes:

Is the boxy hoof a result of an opposite hind limb problem or another body issue?
 
Oberon, many thanks for the reply.

Do you still have the information sheet to hand on thrush, and how did you treat the thrush? I have been using a fairly harse anti-bacteria/fungel wash.

Interesting about the relaxation and spread with regard to the heel as i don't see nearly as much change with this foot than with the other three since taking shoes off.

I am getting there with the diet, and phasing out the conditioning cubes and replacing with fast fibre, he is already on balanced minerals and linseed.

Oddly he has an issue with the same side hind-leg, but i have a feeling he has been holding himself wrong for sometime due to hindgut ulcers. But i've noticed the hoof has got boxier over the past year - and this has gone hand-in-hand with poor frog quality - which until yesterday i didn't associate with thrush! Is there anything that can be done to improve the boxy hoof? Farrier says no but I'd like to hear from the BFT about his issue.
 
Dab said:
Oberon, many thanks for the reply.

Do you still have the information sheet to hand on thrush, and how did you treat the thrush? I have been using a fairly harse anti-bacteria/fungel wash.

Interesting about the relaxation and spread with regard to the heel as i don't see nearly as much change with this foot than with the other three since taking shoes off.

I am getting there with the diet, and phasing out the conditioning cubes and replacing with fast fibre, he is already on balanced minerals and linseed.

Oddly he has an issue with the same side hind-leg, but i have a feeling he has been holding himself wrong for sometime due to hindgut ulcers. But i've noticed the hoof has got boxier over the past year - and this has gone hand-in-hand with poor frog quality - which until yesterday i didn't associate with thrush! Is there anything that can be done to improve the boxy hoof? Farrier says no but I'd like to hear from the BFT about his issue.
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No I don't have the sheet any more (this was many years ago);)

Topicals will only get you so far. Diet and movement work the best. Diet creates the better quality tissue and movement stimulates the horse to create more tissue at a rate faster than the infection can eat it.

Topicals that work well are Sudocrem packs, iodine packs, Red Horse products (I like the ArtiMud and Field Paste) http://www.redhorseproducts.com/Hoof_Care , Silvetrasol ....anything that is both anti bacterial and anti fungal but that doesn't damage living tissue.
Really stubborn cases can be helped with daily soaks of 50% Apple Cider Vinegar and 50% water.
The 'def con 4' option is soaking with Clean Trax or White Lightening http://www.aepsupplies.co.uk/index.cfm?sid=21583&pid=330565&item=26495

Re the boxy hoof - some horses are born boxy (and it can be an in utero nutrition problem when mummy wasn't getting the right mix of nutrients) but there are many boxy hooves caused by body issues. The 'normal' hoof strides out normally whereas the boxy hoof goes more up and down in the stride.

Obviously - getting the horse as healthy and comfortable as possible is the way forward to better hooves. They are a mirror.

Will he ever match perfectly? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't really matter as long as the horse is happy and sound.

You can see Schoko's boxy hoof - he was born that way and all the interventions to correct it backfired and gave him navicular.

He is sound now and his hooves match - almost. You have to really look hard to see the mms of angle difference.:D

http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html

Interestingly, after he was rehabilitated from his lameness, he had huge saddle fitting problems and needed body work for issues that had been niggling alongside but eclipsed by the hoof lameness.

Hoof issues create body issues and body issues create hoof issues :p.....and ulcers create body pain and pain creates ulcers :D
 
Goldenstar said:
Yes I see this too .
Interestingly my shod driving horse has hind frogs that are level with the ground in shoes and they are not far off in front he was shod yesterday and the farrier was remarking that he's probably got the best feet he has ever shod and they where terrible when he came.
I think it's hard work and the BF diet he has ,he arrived with under run soles and flat feet and this improvement has been achieved without coming out of shoes we have seen huge changes in him since all the horses went onto BF type diet ,there's a lesson there.
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Great post Goldenstar, to illustrate that there really is no "barefoot" diet, but only a "good" diet for the particular horse and that ALL feet improve with proper nutrition, even with shoes on :)

Interestingly, also, that some farriers would call your horses hind frogs "prolapsed" because they are weight bearing in shoes. He probably has the best digital cushions (shock absorbers) possible in a shod horse. You're doing something right :D

Now all we need to do is to educate all those people with the fat horses I am seeing everywhere at the moment :mad:
 
Dab
If ur horse has ulcers this may affect his absorption of nutrients, which in turn will also affect his feet. My horse with naviculiar had fine boxy front foot. After correct trimming, diet, and chiro /saddle fit boxyness went and front feet matched, but that doesn't mean all feet should perfectly match by any means.

Treatment for thrust in the mean time...
Milton steralising liquid 1 part Milton to 10 parts water. Soak once a week or spray/brush on alternate days, but get in crack as much as pos . If very sever clean trax from equine podiatry supplies Is fab.

Red horse do a product called hoof stuff. Get some of this and really packing in to slit as much/far as horse is comfortable with. This will help treat infection and start to assist with 'pushing' heels apart. X
 
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