barefoot taliban please help xrays

Wagtail

Wagtail

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I took the shoes of my mare when I retired her due to injury nearly three years ago. She coped really well. So well in fact that she came 100% sound on her shoulder injury that ended her ridden career and one that the vets thought she would never even be sound enough on to go out in the field. Sadly, she developed laminitis last December and has since been diagnosed with Cushings which is being controlled with prascend. However, her lami foot (right fore and the opposite one to the shoulder injury) which has always been her best foot as the other is a little boxy has become really flat. I thought she was having another lami attack and confined her to the sand for six weeks with danilon and ACP. But xrays showed virtually no rotation and vets said he soreness was due to her sole thinning out and flattening. She was shod with imprints and is now 100% sound. It is wonderful. Vets said she would need shoeing for the rest of her life now as the foot has changed so much. You would not believe the feet belong to the same horse!

Any comments on her xrays and if there is hope returning her to barefoot much appreciated.

xrayR1.jpg


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I would say that there is rotation in her left fore. The right fore looks pretty ok side on in comparison. There looks to be some arthritic changes on the joint of p2/p3 RF and possible even sidebone formation (the "horns") on the back view.

(Side view xrays) If you drew a straight line from the middle of pedal bone up through the pastern to the canon, you will see the deviations in both hooves.

The shape of the pedal bones are quite different. One is a little shorter than the other although this means very little unless you can see if there is bone loss.

You can also see an angle of growth which suggests the angle the LF hoof "wants" to grow in but this deviates and in the back view you can see how much more contracted the frog is and much less development of the digital cushion and much less balanced than the RF.

The right fore looks like the healthier hoof. I think there *could* be a degree of laminitis, or an infection in the back of the hoof. As for going back to bf, I can't see why not but if she is sound with imprints, I would be happy to see how things go.
 
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tallyho! said:
I would say that there is rotation in her left fore. The right fore looks pretty ok side on in comparison. There looks to be some arthritic changes on the joint of p2/p3 RF and possible even sidebone formation (the "horns") on the back view.

(Side view xrays) If you drew a straight line from the middle of pedal bone up through the pastern to the canon, you will see the deviations in both hooves.

The shape of the pedal bones are quite different. One is a little shorter than the other although this means very little unless you can see if there is bone loss.

You can also see an angle of growth which suggests the angle the LF hoof "wants" to grow in but this deviates and in the back view you can see how much more contracted the frog is and much less development of the digital cushion and much less balanced than the RF.

The right fore looks like the healthier hoof. I think there *could* be a degree of laminitis, or an infection in the back of the hoof. As for going back to bf, I can't see why not but if she is sound with imprints, I would be happy to see how things go.
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Thanks for that TallyHo. I am bringing her back into very light work right now. Mainly to help keep her weight down. She was really sore in her right front before the imprints. Her left front has always been more upright and boxy, and this got even worse after her shoulder injury, with the right fore taking more weight. I agree that the right fore looks the most healthy foot. I plan to get on her this afternoon and just walk around for five minutes. Gradually increase the time over the next six weeks and see how she goes. I think I may have to keep her shod in front though. Interesting what yo say about the side bone as for years she would get a thickened pastern on the left front (though not lame) after jumping on firm or deep ground and I would have to rest her. Right front has always been fine until the lami, but I wonder if the arthritic changes are compounding the issue?
 
Could the soreness be coming from something other than arthritis or laminitis? Is there a grumbling frog infection? Not that its something you can tell from an xray.

If it was lami, then the long hoof walls would contribute to some pain upon bearing weight and the sole does look to be thinner on the RF.

I really rate imprint shoes. They are expensive. Have you got any normal photos of the same views? It would be interesting to see in the "flesh". Hopefully some of the more experienced peeps will reply too :)
 
She does get thrush in that foot quite often. I treat it and it clears then comes back but she has never been sore with it. I have some pics of the hoof right after it spread but it was two trims ago and before she became sore. She actually got sore after a bare foot trim took away most of the flare.
 
I thought there was rotation too but the vet said it was very minimal. I said to the vet before she was xrayed that I was expecting rotation in the left fore due to the change in angle in the hoof wall (which was a new thing for her). However, she has remained sound on that foot.
 
Well, there are a couple of things that spring to mind when you mention the flare being trimmed.

Was she barefoot before this incident? How long for?

Firstly, if the frog is weak and the "flare" is actually 'old angle of hoof wall', this will make standing on undeveloped structures uncomfortable. When you say spread, I assume you mean this flare?

Secondly, you say she was never sore with the thrush. Yet, when the hoof was trimmed, she became sore. Was the frog in contact with the ground before or after the trim? If it was after, then you have your answer. The thrush was already there - possibly deep seated. The trim put extra pressure on it which made it sore. If the frog was healthy, there may not have been so much pain, so immediately. Thrushy frogs are characteristically soft and crumbly compared with healthy bf frog which can be almost as hard as the sole.

Trimming of flares is a whole other thread in NL. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=557091

ETA: the rotation in the LF is very interesting actually. It reminds me of my old horses x-ray. The characteristic bulge at the coronet, the arthritic indications, the steeper angle of p3, the high heels... no laminits supposedly but short on the shoulder. M eventually was diagnosed with navicular on his box-foot which manifested with intermittent lameness.
 
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tallyho! said:
Well, there are a couple of things that spring to mind when you mention the flare being trimmed.

Was she barefoot before this incident? How long for?

Firstly, if the frog is weak and the "flare" is actually 'old angle of hoof wall', this will make standing on undeveloped structures uncomfortable. When you say spread, I assume you mean this flare?

Secondly, you say she was never sore with the thrush. Yet, when the hoof was trimmed, she became sore. Was the frog in contact with the ground before or after the trim? If it was after, then you have your answer. The thrush was already there - possibly deep seated. The trim put extra pressure on it which made it sore. If the frog was healthy, there may not have been so much pain, so immediately. Thrushy frogs are characteristically soft and crumbly compared with healthy bf frog which can be almost as hard as the sole.

Trimming of flares is a whole other thread in NL. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=557091

ETA: the rotation in the LF is very interesting actually. It reminds me of my old horses x-ray. The characteristic bulge at the coronet, the arthritic indications, the steeper angle of p3, the high heels... no laminits supposedly but short on the shoulder. M eventually was diagnosed with navicular on his box-foot which manifested with intermittent lameness.
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Thanks. She has been barefoot for two and a half years. She went lame a week after my sister trimmed her for me as farrier had not addressed the flare. She tends to take more off the bars and the walls and so yes, I guess it would bring the foot closer to the ground. But the foot had almost deformed prior to this. I will find some pics to post. Unfortunately I don't have any of what it was like before it spread.
 
Okay, here are the photographs taken shortly before she was trimmed and became lame. Sorry the feet are a bit mucky, I took them in the bare patch she was in at the time. You can see how the bars of the feet have spread right out. They were about 2 inches from the frog groove!

hoof4.jpg


hoof3.jpg


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hoof1.jpg
 
It appears that there has been rotation in the LF, however you can see from the growth at the top of the foot that the new hoof that is growing down looks well connected at this point, so I'd say you're well on the road to resolving that.

Has there been an improvement in that RF foot since the imprints?
 
TwoStroke said:
It appears that there has been rotation in the LF, however you can see from the growth at the top of the foot that the new hoof that is growing down looks well connected at this point, so I'd say you're well on the road to resolving that.

Has there been an improvement in that RF foot since the imprints?
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She is sound on it most of the time but is still sensitive if the mud and stones have packed underneath before I pick out her feet. That is one of the draw backs of imprints as they are more difficult to pick out. The hoof looks a much better shape now too.
 
Thanks for pics wagtail. I thought initially that the heels and hoof wall are very long and that it could be frog health wchich was the compromising issue. It's feathery, and crumbly, no wonder when the heels were trimmed she was so sore. She literally had nothing to stand on. Once those frogs are treated and the structures at the back of the foot are given time to grow strong, I think the lameness will be remedied. Also, it doesn't look "spread" to me. Just very long :)

fwiw... if you want to go down bf route and not the imprints, you may want to buy some boots.
 
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Yes, I have just bought some boots for my other horse. He has typical TB feet. He works beautifully in the boots though. I am going to stick with the imprints for another three months and then try her without again. I will then either buy her some boots or have her shod normally in front to lift her foot off the ground a bit. She is going to need very odd sizes of boots!
 
Are the heels still in timbuktu?

That's an exceptionally weak caudal hoof, which I suspect is the main problem, as the lateral x ray doesn't look too bad. If you wanted to return to barefoot, I'd get an experienced trimmer on board.
 
TwoStroke said:
Are the heels still in timbuktu?

That's an exceptionally weak caudal hoof, which I suspect is the main problem, as the lateral x ray doesn't look too bad. If you wanted to return to barefoot, I'd get an experienced trimmer on board.
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No, the heels have been taken right back by my sister whose a barefoot trimmer. She then went lame after a few days and I thought it was the lami returning, but from what you and TH have said, it may be a problem with her frog. What is caudal hoof? I've never heard that before.
 
Wagtail said:
or have her shod normally in front to lift her foot off the ground a bit
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This will take you right back to square one. However, if you think it will make her comfortable in the long run, it is the right thing to do. I personally think you need to keep up ground contact and build up caudal hoof strength, shoes will not do this if you heave every structure up off the floor. Sympathetic trimming by an experienced trimmer will do more good for these hooves, speaking from experience and my brainwashed taliban ways. However, it is your decision :)

Is your sister a bf trimmer? ETA - just seen post above.... I think she was trying to do the right thing and provide frog contact but didn't look to see if the structures at the back of the foot (caudal) was ready to bear weight.

When hooves are left to grow this long, naturally, the caudal hoof structures (back of foot, frog, digital cushion, heel bulbs, lateral cartilages) are left to "idle" for want of a better word. To bring it back into "work" so dramatically will obviously be a shock to the system. It would have been better to do it gradually, or tell you that your mare will need boots for a while at least!
 
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tallyho! said:
This will take you right back to square one. However, if you think it will make her comfortable in the long run, it is the right thing to do. I personally think you need to keep up ground contact and build up caudal hoof strength, shoes will not do this if you heave every structure up off the floor. Sympathetic trimming by an experienced trimmer will do more good for these hooves, speaking from experience and my brainwashed taliban ways. However, it is your decision :)

Is your sister a bf trimmer?
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Yes, she is. Unfortunately she lives four hours away and so only gets to do my horses when she's visiting. But my mare has been trimmed by the farrier without any problems until last winter and her lami attack.
 
Wagtail said:
No, the heels have been taken right back by my sister whose a barefoot trimmer. She then went lame after a few days and I thought it was the lami returning, but from what you and TH have said, it may be a problem with her frog. What is caudal hoof? I've never heard that before.
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Sorry, caudal hoof just means the back part of the hoof.

I'm not at all surprised that taking the heels back lamed the horse. You can see that the sole plane is level(ish) with the hoof wall, meaning that you sister would have had to take sole away in order to bring the heels back. Not only that, but it would have dumped the horse back on that weak caudal hoof all of a sudden.

Is the horse landing heel first currently?

The key to developing the structures in the back of the foot is first to treat any thrush, sort the diet, and then get some stimulation into it.
 
Wagtail said:
Yes, she is. Unfortunately she lives four hours away and so only gets to do my horses when she's visiting. But my mare has been trimmed by the farrier without any problems until last winter and her lami attack.
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We cross posted :D... lami does make hooves grow strange shapes. That xray shows that the hoof wall is better connected as twostroke says, it just needs to be helped down now... :)

"Is your sister a bf trimmer? ETA - just seen post above.... I think she was trying to do the right thing and provide frog contact but didn't look to see if the structures at the back of the foot (caudal) was ready to bear weight.

When hooves are left to grow this long, naturally, the caudal hoof structures (back of foot, frog, digital cushion, heel bulbs, lateral cartilages) are left to "idle" for want of a better word. To bring it back into "work" so dramatically will obviously be a shock to the system. It would have been better to do it gradually, or tell you that your mare will need boots for a while at least!"
 
I think that her frogs are the main problem and until the condition of them is improved she will continue to be sore, they are giving no support to her pedal bones at the moment even if the hoof is trimmed she will not want to land on those heels.
I would not shoe her, it is just going to make matters worse in the long term, she will have less support and is more likely to become laminitic again.
 
Wagtail said:
Yes, she is. Unfortunately she lives four hours away and so only gets to do my horses when she's visiting. But my mare has been trimmed by the farrier without any problems until last winter and her lami attack.
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So what happened since last winter?
 
Thanks. I see exactly what yo are saying and it makes a lot more sense than what the vet told me (that her sole was thin due to the cushings. My farrier said she has really good strong soles.

I have just ridden her properly for the first time in three years (just five minutes in walk) and she felt fabulous. Really long striding and 100% sound in her imprints. I will have to tackle the recurrant thrush, though having the imprints on covers most of her frog.
 
be positive said:
I think that her frogs are the main problem and until the condition of them is improved she will continue to be sore, they are giving no support to her pedal bones at the moment even if the hoof is trimmed she will not want to land on those heels.
I would not shoe her, it is just going to make matters worse in the long term, she will have less support and is more likely to become laminitic again.
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I am going to bring her back barefoot after this treatment with the imprints and see how she goes. I have all this treatment going on on advice from the vets and the go ahead from the insurance which will run out in December. I don't want her back so foot sore again as she was so miserable being confined to the sand on her own. At least with the imprints she can be brought back into light work which will help with her weight and can go out with her companion for a few hours a day. She was too lame before the imprints to come out of the sand and I hated seeing her like that.
 
The imprints will be doing something to help in those three months hopefully. If she is striding out and landing heel first, this will build up the structures at the back of the foot. This is what you are aiming for with barefoot. The thrush in the frog may be more difficult to treat but I have heard many good things about soaking in cleantrax. I personally have no experience with it but others have on here. I have had success with syringing "Pete's Goo" (google) into crevices in M's deep seated thrush using a syringe with a long thin nozzle/dripper. You can get them on ebay.

Once the imprints have been removed, you can use hoof boots to help strengthen the frog. It should only take a few weeks of work in boots, if that, given the frog is infection free. Just dont let the walls get so long again that it lifts the whole foot off the floor, or it will just do the same again. At least then, the boots will be a removable protector, but still allows the foot to function, breathe and generally be a good foot :)
 
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