Barefoot v Shod Feet

gekko said:
The damage cause by a shoe can be minimised.....and they CAN prevent much more serious damage...so the "sum total" of damage can be less than no shoes...

It's the blanket statements without any justification or aknowledgement that it's not always the case that is the problem. Boots are not always the solution and are only one part of hoof care..not a cure all. Shoes (which have also evolved) can be another valuable part.

Your description of "solid metal structure" just isn't correct and shows a level of ignorance or deceit too.... Shoes can be made flexible and of a variety of materials ...not all metal, not all solid...and those things cross over too...I can make a flex shoe of metal or use a rigid composite...
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Gosh gekko, why are you being so defensive? I don't think barefoot is a cult. It's a termed coined by someone who is still a qualified farrier but saw the benefits of going unshod just like you.

I think people are intelligent enough to know if the horse needs shoes but it is an even more informed/intelligent decision when one decides to remove them for rehabilitation after illness or injury. It's not a new thing. In my dad's old books horses were regularly turned away for months with shoes taken off and given pasture trims. I was brainwashed into thinking my horses hooves would crumble away if unshod. Yet, the compounding navicular, contraction was being made worse. I knew this long ago but was scared off by the vet and farrier - until I decided enough was enough. Who is being ignorant here? The experts or me?

I don't agree with unqualified trimmers but I do agree with someone who is qualified and takes a holistic view of the situation rather than just looking at the hoof itself.

About the flexible shoes, in the uk they are really expensive. The average owner has irons or nothing basically and these day's it's £60-80 every 6 weeks. So the average horse owner going 'cult' isn't such a bad thing given the current economic clime.

Perhaps if we could have affordable, hardwearing flexible shoes, that too, would be an option for the hoof here as well as Australia.
 
Tallyho, Hate to say it, but you are a gullible fool! Read your own post about how your horses "calcium defficiency" was "diagnosed" and then come back and tell us you are for real! What utter rubbish! You want to diagnose deficencies, get a blood test...otherwise stop talking out your butt!
You might want to check the origins of the barefoot movement...not from farriers...
...and the cult references only those who have been "drinking the cool aid"...if you have an open mind your not a cultist...(BTW, looks like youv'e had enough!)

Oh, and noone will deny nailing on a shoe is not ideal, but did some of you miss the bit about nailing on a shoe doing a hell of a lot less than the damage it can prevent?
Putting on clothes stops YOU getting a tan....but it saves the rest of us damaged eyes and an upset stomache....it's for "the greater good!"
 
Gekko you are being very rude to Tallyho, who did have bloods done and
it is a documented fact that diets do have an impact on people and animals.

I am interested in barefoot because it seems a more natural way, my boy
used to trip when he was due to be shod, he hasn't tripped once since removing his shoes.

Each to their own I say
 
Is gekko a troll? All the personal insults smack of either extreme insecurity or the desire to provoke a reaction...... perhaps ignoring him would be the best course of action?
 
tallyho! said:
Hi teddyt, the calcium deficiency was evident in the red 'bruises' in random places on the hoof wall. Although I'm being told this, I'm no expert.
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Calcium is needed for good quality hooves but lack of it does not cause bruises. Bruising is caused by trauma. A poorer quality hoof *may* bruise more easily but if this was due to just calcium deficiency there would be other signs of poor hoof quality than just bruises. Furthermore unless you test the horn i cant see how you can tell that the bruises are from calcium deficiency specifically, as if the bruises are partly due to poor hoof quality who is to say that the horse isnt deficient in something else? If your grass has now been tested and its got plenty of calcium in it this is also unlikely. im not convinced by what youve been told there!

He was also bloated (not a worming issue). If you see my original text I said I had a test done by vet LFT & bloods and he was sickly and the only thing I could put it down to was f4f, that's all he got with carrots. And carrots or beta-carotene inhibits calcium absorbtion in the gut. How wierd!

F4F has 'optimal' doses of pretty much everything a horse needs but unless you know what concentrations are in hay and grass you could I have been overdosing? Better to stop.
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Carrots are about 80% water. You would have to feed a hell of a lot of them to inhibit calcium absorption.
Surely if F4F could overdose so easily it wouldnt be sold. It has been produced by some very reputable people. Very few horse owners analyse their soil and hay so if feeding a broad spectrum supplement it would be quite easy to overdose on many things. The body would just excrete the unwante nutrients unless they were present at a toxic level. I dont believe the supplement would be produced with potentially toxic levels of a nutrient.

The raised liver enzymes and bloat could have been down to many other things. i dont think you can categorically say that it was the F4F that was killing him. Laminitics are ill horses after all. Just one explanation is raised liver enzymes as a result of previous medication.

So, untill we do more work, he's happier than he's ever been just hanging out with his mates and is looking better than he was 6 months ago and he now has a normal looking belly.
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Thats what matters at the end of the day. If your horse is better then thats great. However i am very dubious about some of the things your EP has told you. To me its the bandwagon stuff that they tend to tell people- it sounds plausible but when you actually think about it it is very unlikely or even wrong.

I am not anti barefoot at all. i too prefer to say unshod though. i have several unshod horses. But i dont like these airy fairy ideas that EPs tend to spread about.

Just my point of view:)
 
Provoke a reaction? Yep! Desired reaction? Get people to look at the rubbish they spout and give everyone else who already sees it a giggle with my obvious wit and delightful sarcasm!

Honestly look at what you said, that coloured marks on a hoof were proof of calcium deficiency! Do you REALLY believe that? You don't find it a touch ridiculous? And those of us with ample qualification and experience are not allowed to laugh at you for trying convert the gulible with information like that?
 
Gee Teddy, you think a lot like me....just that I get a little more fed up and am a little more sarcastic! But you hit the nail on the head...spout rubbish that sound half rational to those that know no better and they fall for it...and once they are hooked they reject common sense and honest answers from those who know, becouse it doesn't fit the belief system they have now attached themself to....
 
Am not a cult member or evangelist, but I have had my farrier take my mares shoes off. She hasn't missed a beat and is coping wonderfully. I am super careful with her diet as she is very sugar sensitive (don't need a blood test to tell that!), the diet also helps her feet and avoids any footyness. She has good feet which are improving without shoes, I have the support of my (luckily v good!) farrier.

I don't think barefoot (the name really doesn't matter) or shod can't be said as being right for every horse. The thing I think is important is that each owner educates themselves and considers what suits their horse the best. This isn't terribly easy with the dodgy info on the internet! Hooves will not wear away if the horse is worked on the road and it isn't a given that horses will be sore out of shoes! Unfortunatly a significant proportion of vets and farriers are backwards and rather blinkered in their thoughts re barefoot which also makes it hard for the conciencious owner to work out what is the best for their horse.

Gekko, what damage can a shoe prevent? For horses with sensitive soles I understand that shoes can releive this discomfort, however they do not cure the problem. I don't mean to start an argument, I am interested in increasing my knowledge.
 
It's not just discomfort, it's things like severe bruising, punctures, splits, excessive wear etc..
You'll note I ALWAYS say shoes are not allways the best option, and that often unshod IS the best... but you will also note that you rarely (read never) here from a barefoot cultist that putting shoes on is the best or only option for some horses and that not doing so is a cruelty issue.

Think of all the damage the ground and objects in and on it can do to a hoof...Shoes can prevent or at least lessen the chances of all of those...boots can too...but boots are not suitable for 24/7 and sometimes the problems are there all the
time.

Unshod when you can, Shod when you have to....
 
I can see how they would help with the things you mention - but the sole would still come into contact with surfaces that could do this damage, but are just raised a little more above it when shoes are used? To my way of thinking, although wearing shoes could reduce the symptoms of these problems. The probs aren't reduced because the foot is improved, rather that it just doesn't come into such contact with damaging surfaces. From what I have seen and experienced with my mare (granted, hardly a large sample!) initially her soles were soft enough to be dinted and worn very quickly. But with just keeping an eye on them and judging her reaction to different surfaces her soles have hardened up and now her feet are well conditioned to the surfaces we regularly come across (stony tracks, tarmac and soft ground).

I think there are just as many 'barefoot cultists' as there are 'shod cultists'! I would be unlikely to feel I was learning much from either as the info doesn't have much chance of being objective!
 
I honestly don't think you will find anyone who will demand that every horse will require shoes no matter what...but you WILL find plenty who will claim the exact opposite.

Unfortunately, while most people who shoe will be happy to just trim wen it suits, you will rarely find somone who is a barefoot convert preaching that shoes can be a necessary evil.....at least not till a while doen the track when a few of them realise not everything suits every horse and both practices can have their place.
 
ok, well iv currently got 3 barefoot (one field ornament, one in light work, and a TB, ex racer no less, working hard-ish at adv med level), and im totally happy to accept putting shoes on the TB if he needs them to stay happy in his work.no a problem if it does happen :)

mine all hack out happily, no boots or anything BTW.
 
Actually I found the opposite to be true - there were more people saying/asking when I was going to get my newly broken in horse shod than the other way round; in fact I gave in to peer pressure and did shoe and after a few years had them taken off. I still get stopped by a certain gentleman who asks when I'm going to shoe as my horse needs them (this is a horse that is totally sound over all surfaces and at all paces!)

I don't adhere to a particular trimming method, but I have to say I've heard trimmers say that sometimes shoes are the best option for whatever reason. I don't deny that there are trimmers that are a bit evangelical and who have probably done more harm than good by continuing with less than ideal circumstances and insisting that their way is right. However I've heard that from people who shoe too!

At the end of the day we've got to do what we feel is right for the horses in our care, and providing we are doing our best and being open minded about all the options and doing our own research with no discomfort to the horse then I think it is up to the individual whether they choose to shoe or not.
 
Are you getting this "must shoe everything" from Master Farriers or just from numpties? Cos you certainly hear the never shoe preaching from "qualified" barefooters... not JUST numpty converts

As I have said often... Master Farrier, prefer ushod if doable, but know that shoes can be the best option.
 
Although you take that view gekko, I can assure you that you are not in the majority!! The farrier we currently have is the only one who hasn't dismissed barefoot out of hand. I get 'aren't you mad but harmless' looks from pretty much everyone who notices or who I chat about it with! From saddle fitters, yard owners, other liveries (from happy hackers to serious competitors) etc. You get the idea!! It is hard to continue with something that you can see is suiting your horse well (or consider trying it) when very many around you think you are at best mad, or at worst cruel.
 
Have to confess that it's mostly from numpties! I do know a farrier that continually shod two retired horses over twenty years whose feet were so contracted they hardly had any frogs left, I've never seen feet like them and not once did he suggest giving the feet a break from the shoes that they could have done without.
I also think though that many owners are conditioned that shoes are automatically put on without question instead of waiting to see if a horse actually needs them, many farriers just do what the owner wants and I've never been questioned by a farrier as to why I was shoeing a horse, which would be a good thing to ask I think.
As it has been said before, years ago horses would get a break from shoes for a period of time during the year, unless they were exceptionally hard working, and would usually not last very long if they were, and that just doesn't happen for most horses nowadays which I think makes a huge difference to hoof health. I think it can only be a good thing that people are becoming more hoof aware and starting to question whether shoes are right for their horses or not.
 
I try not to get involved in 'barefoot' v shod debates as feelings always end up running high. However...

My farrier recommended I take my ponies shoes off over the winter when we were competing at high levels in endurance. He said a minimum of 3 months without shoes would give him a fresh foot for the start of the next competition season. So I personally do not recognise these farriers that discourage shoes being removed as that is certainly not my experience.
 
my farrier actively encouraged me to take my cob's fronts off yesterday. He said he had good strong feet and there was no reason he couldn't cope without shoes. So I went for it. He also left saying that if I have any problems to give him a ring. I like my farrier.
 
gekko said:
Tallyho, Hate to say it, but you are a gullible fool! Read your own post about how your horses "calcium defficiency" was "diagnosed" and then come back and tell us you are for real! What utter rubbish! You want to diagnose deficencies, get a blood test...otherwise stop talking out your butt!
You might want to check the origins of the barefoot movement...not from farriers...
...and the cult references only those who have been "drinking the cool aid"...if you have an open mind your not a cultist...(BTW, looks like youv'e had enough!)

Oh, and noone will deny nailing on a shoe is not ideal, but did some of you miss the bit about nailing on a shoe doing a hell of a lot less than the damage it can prevent?
Putting on clothes stops YOU getting a tan....but it saves the rest of us damaged eyes and an upset stomache....it's for "the greater good!"
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I DID get a blood test.
 
There is no way that I am going to start referring to my barefoot horses as unshod.
That would be like calling every person who is not wearing a coat "uncoated". They aren't born with shoes and it's time we recognised with a positive term like barefoot that it is the natural state and that shod horses, some for good reason, are in an unnatural state.

That isn't to say that shoes aren't necessary for some horse/owner combinations, but there are thousands of horses in this country that don't need shoes whose farriers are happily shoeing them either through ignorance that they could do fine without, or through greed of not wanting to lose revenues. Their owners have them shod through the same kind of "ALL horses need shoes to work hard" brainwashing that I got in the first 25 years of horse ownership. I was absolutely hopping mad when I found out that it wasn't true. The fuss, the bother, the damage done to my horses (both going progressively less sound), the money, for decades. And for what? Nothing! BOY was I cross :mad: I post on this board so that other people will know that they have a choice!

Barefoot means more than "unshod". Any horse can be unshod. Only horses who do the work they would be expected to do with shoes on are barefoot. It's not the best term, but we are stuck with it and I've grown to quite like it.

I keep reading posts lately saying that there are barefoot cult members on this board saying no horse ever needs shoes. I've been accused of it myself. I can't recall reading them and I certainly haven't written any. What is happening is that enthusiastic pro-barefoot people's posts are being read by people who assume that those posters mean that no horse should ever have shoes on. It's not what we are saying and I wish people could stop reading what hasn't been written.


OP you have nothing to lose. Do your homework, get your horse's diet right, and try it. If you and your horse get on well with it, great.
 
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teddyt said:
Calcium is needed for good quality hooves but lack of it does not cause bruises. Bruising is caused by trauma. A poorer quality hoof *may* bruise more easily but if this was due to just calcium deficiency there would be other signs of poor hoof quality than just bruises. Furthermore unless you test the horn i cant see how you can tell that the bruises are from calcium deficiency specifically, as if the bruises are partly due to poor hoof quality who is to say that the horse isnt deficient in something else? If your grass has now been tested and its got plenty of calcium in it this is also unlikely. im not convinced by what youve been told there!



Carrots are about 80% water. You would have to feed a hell of a lot of them to inhibit calcium absorption.
Surely if F4F could overdose so easily it wouldnt be sold. It has been produced by some very reputable people. Very few horse owners analyse their soil and hay so if feeding a broad spectrum supplement it would be quite easy to overdose on many things. The body would just excrete the unwante nutrients unless they were present at a toxic level. I dont believe the supplement would be produced with potentially toxic levels of a nutrient.

The raised liver enzymes and bloat could have been down to many other things. i dont think you can categorically say that it was the F4F that was killing him. Laminitics are ill horses after all. Just one explanation is raised liver enzymes as a result of previous medication.



Thats what matters at the end of the day. If your horse is better then thats great. However i am very dubious about some of the things your EP has told you. To me its the bandwagon stuff that they tend to tell people- it sounds plausible but when you actually think about it it is very unlikely or even wrong.

I am not anti barefoot at all. i too prefer to say unshod though. i have several unshod horses. But i dont like these airy fairy ideas that EPs tend to spread about.

Just my point of view:)
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Exactly teddyt.... why wasn't he getting better because according to Dr Eustace he would be back to normal in no time.

Lami, all four 2006, major 'concussion' (in inv' commas because this is also a coined term not scientific) in 2008 then again in 2009.

All this time I had paid thousands to EXPERT farriery and veterinary care.

Of course you will not ever come to terms with this but I FELT the right thing to do after 4 years of suffering was to remove the shoes.

The f4f was being fed for 4 years. Nowhere in that time could I turn him out for more than 4 hrs because vet said he would categorically DIE.

So lets consider toxicity builds up rather like drugs build up in humans therefore requiring LFTs and Renal analyses. I don't have that to hand and vets aren't that advanced. WHat equipment do you have to prove your hypotheses? Show me some proof.

So, after a spring of CAREFUL management advised by vet and FARRIER my horse went lame in all fours.

Please now explain in all your expertise because now we all know you are EXPERTS (well you and Gekko) why he is now on GRASS, 24/7. no shoes no lami, sound and working if it hadn't been for very sound advice from my EP and the VET.

What qualifies YOU to tell me I am wrong and uninformed and question me as a responsible owner of a horse I love to tell me that what I did was wrong.

And then, explain, why you hijack a perfectly rational thread with such animosity towards people who try to do the right thing.
 
cptrayes said:
There is no way that I am going to start referring to my barefoot horses as unshod.
That would be like calling every person who is not wearing a coat "uncoated". They aren't born with shoes and it's time we recognised with a positive term like barefoot that it is the natural state and that shod horses, some for good reason, are in an unnatural state.

That isn't to say that shoes aren't necessary for some horse/owner combinations, but there are thousands of horses in this country that don't need shoes whose farriers are happily shoeing them either through ignorance that they could do fine without, or through greed of not wanting to lose revenues. Their owners have them shod through the same kind of "ALL horses need shoes to work hard" brainwashing that I got in the first 25 years of horse ownership. I was absolutely hopping mad when I found out that it wasn't true. The fuss, the bother, the damage done to my horses (both going progressively less sound), the money, for decades. And for what? Nothing! BOY was I cross :mad: I post on this board so that other people will know that they have a choice!

Barefoot means more than "unshod". Any horse can be unshod. Only horses who do the work they would be expected to do with shoes on are barefoot. It's not the best term, but we are stuck with it and I've grown to quite like it.

I keep reading posts lately saying that there are barefoot cult members on this board saying no horse ever needs shoes. I've been accused of it myself. I can't recall reading them and I certainly haven't written any. What is happening is that enthusiastic pro-barefoot people's posts are being read by people who assume that those posters mean that no horse should ever have shoes on. It's not what we are saying and I wish people could stop reading what hasn't been written.


OP you have nothing to lose. Do your homework, get your horse's diet right, and try it. If you and your horse get on well with it, great.
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OP please ignore the erm... petai :D please take note of the above.

p.s. I have had barefoot ponies since I was 7, only shod horses because "everyone else did" and I hunted lots at the time. So not a CULTist in the slightest.

Gekko, admire your attitude but less of the aggression.... doesn't suit you.
 
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My opinion is if the horse has good feet then they are likely to be able to cope being barefoot.
Our horses were pretty much all barefoot years ago, including my mare, it is only the second half of her life she has been shod on the fronts.
The next riding horse I get I will not shoe it from the start, and hopefully it will stay that way. I did not shoe my mare, it was when she went on loan that they shod her as they insisted she needed it with the work she was doing, due to her foot problems since I have not been able to take them off. Though her foot health has come on amazingly considering the underlying damage, my farrier just cannot beleive how well she has done, and neither can I, I hope it continues.

I know of many horses whose feet have improved no end from taking shoes off, really depends on the horse
 
tallyho! said:
Exactly teddyt.... why wasn't he getting better because according to Dr Eustace he would be back to normal in no time.

Lami, all four 2006, major 'concussion' (in inv' commas because this is also a coined term not scientific) in 2008 then again in 2009.

All this time I had paid thousands to EXPERT farriery and veterinary care.

Of course you will not ever come to terms with this but I FELT the right thing to do after 4 years of suffering was to remove the shoes.

The f4f was being fed for 4 years. Nowhere in that time could I turn him out for more than 4 hrs because vet said he would categorically DIE.

So lets consider toxicity builds up rather like drugs build up in humans therefore requiring LFTs and Renal analyses. I don't have that to hand and vets aren't that advanced. WHat equipment do you have to prove your hypotheses? Show me some proof.

So, after a spring of CAREFUL management advised by vet and FARRIER my horse went lame in all fours.

Please now explain in all your expertise because now we all know you are EXPERTS (well you and Gekko) why he is now on GRASS, 24/7. no shoes no lami, sound and working if it hadn't been for very sound advice from my EP and the VET.

What qualifies YOU to tell me I am wrong and uninformed and question me as a responsible owner of a horse I love to tell me that what I did was wrong.

And then, explain, why you hijack a perfectly rational thread with such animosity towards people who try to do the right thing.
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tallyho- you have taken my post wrongly. I explained a differing point of view to what you have been told, thats all. No animosity at all. Thats why i said its just my point of view and put a smiley. Thats why i said that if your horse is better then thats great! Thats what matters. but i believe that some of the suggestions didnt have great foundations. Possible, yes. But not the definite solution that they were 'sold' as. Its possible that raised liver enzymes were due to F4F but its also possible it was from years of medication to help with the laminitis. You cant say for sure.

Of course you will not ever come to terms with this but I FELT the right thing to do after 4 years of suffering was to remove the shoes.
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How do you know? You have got very defensive with me offering a different view. Possibly because others have been rude. But dont let that get in the way of a discussion. Just so you know, i have previously taken shoes off a horse that had been shod for 20 years. Not because he was retired but because i FELT it may improve his feet. It has. I have also taken shoes off a horse with navicular. He was sound with shoes and he is now sound without shoes. So yes actually i can come to terms with horses not wearing shoes. And i can come to terms with owners doing what they feel is right. What i cant come to terms with is minimally trained EPs giving advice as if it was gospel when there are other possible explanations. Some sell barefoot as though its black and white- shoes are evil, no shoes are best. Your horse cant eat a carrot or it will die stuff.

I could go on explaining and answering some of your questions about my experience and knowledge but i wont. As i said, just my point of view. A different one to that which you have accepted but i can assure you there is no animosity towards you- i was just offering alternative information.
 
My opinion is if the horse has good feet then they are likely to be able to cope being barefoot.
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Actually one fo the reasons we went barefoot was because two of ours had very bad feet - you could rasp them with your fingernails (exageration for effect....:) )

Now they have very hard feet and rasps just don't last that long :D

In all things there is a danger with being polarised - I've met the die hard shoers (I was one) - and had the misfortune to experience the Barefoot Taliban.

in the end of the day you have to find your own truth, and not listen to the nutters.
 
''in the end of the day you have to find your own truth, and not listen to the nutters.''
Well said Brucea
I know plenty of horses that are shod for the sake of it. Since my tb has been barefoot 3 others at my livery yard have also removed their horses shoes. 2 of them are 'pets' that the owner rides about 5 times a year. Her farrier knew they did no work but happily put shoes on for years at no point did he say 'why dont you try without'. Now she just has his apprentice turn up and trim them.

For the original post all I would say is try it. Winter is certainly on the way with soft ground as opposed to the dry rutted fields we had in summer. You might find you wished you had done it sooner.
 
Barefoot does not suit all owners but there is absolutely no need for your horse to be painfuly tiptoeing along because he has no shoe, yes sometimes the damage that has been caused from wearing shoes often on incorrectly balanced feet can meen that the feet are sore when shoes are removed and it is far more easier if you can ignore the progressive changes in your horses feet but it is far more satisfying when you see the difference in the way your horse moves the freedom in his step when his feet are properly balanced and barefoot ,. Road work does not need to be a problem most can cope with 2 hours daily and there feet will grow enough, pressure is the stimulus for growth, also boots are available i use old macs in the river and galloping the tracks all 24 of my ponies are barefoot and trimmed by myself or partner as qualified Applied Equine Podiatrists. ouchy feet can often be caused by a collapsed arch the pain is coming from the bony column from within the foot pressing down ,the health of the dorsal aspect is paramount in achieving a healthy internal arch. Yes afarrier is trained in the Trade all based on suposition whilst myself and many more are trained based on science,Proven theories. It can take commitment to the wellbeing of the horse from both hoofcare provider and owner . my advice to any one is check out the facts. Take a look at [Commercial URL removed]
 
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