Barefoot v Shod Feet

KirstyLou said:
They've gone thousands of years barefoot in the wild, why shoe domesticated horses?
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Because the locomotion of horses in the wild is totally different to domesticated ones. The diet, terrain and type of exercise are different. for example, in the wild horses move slowly for the majority of the time with a few short bursts of speed. Domesticated horses are mainly kept in a stable and small paddocks, fed differently and ridden relatively hard for 1-2 hours a day. The process of domestication is actually very alien to the horses musculoskeletal system and means that many horses need to be shod in order for them to cope with the domestication. Breeding for speed, dressage,etc has also in many cases simultaneously bred poor feet.

Of course if the domesticated horse is managed in a certain way then shoes are not necessarily required but not everyone is able or willing to carry out this management and for some horses it is just easier/ better for the owner to have them shod.
 
gekko said:
• a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing : a cult of personality surrounding the leaders.

Try that definition from your list...it's very appropriate in many situations....

Yes, I am a Master Farrier. I also have a couple of degrees and quite a few other qualifications, some of them very applicable to horses, some not. (most of them not! lol)

Vet Science is not among them, so nope I'm NOT a Vet... HOWEVER....some other specific areas I do have qualifications in are as an AI tech in a variety of livestock species and qualifications in human emergency medical care which of course transfers across to animals...because we are in a remote area with the closest vet being around 300km away someone has to deal with sick and injured livestock...guess who?

We actually own and operate a vet clinic/AI centre, employing visiting vets, (an equine specialist,who will look at small animals under sufferance, if he can't fob it off, a small animal only vet and a small animal vet who will deal with horses if we bribe/threaten him! lol)...but in between clinic days (which rotate around the vets/specialties) I deal with all the things that can't wait... lots of suturing, LOTS of colics(sand colic is quite common round here), fractures etc...oh, and injured wildlife - lots of road trauma...with one of our vets prescribing drugs from our stocks via phone to cover the legalities...All the follow up with dressings, treatments and removal of clips/sutures between clinics also falls back to me post surgical cases etc.."at the direction" of the treating vets.

Honestly you guys don't know how spolit you are with vets on hand at the drop of a hat and everything right next door!

It's a case that If I can't treat the problem (usually done in consult with one of our vets for legalities and so on) or at least stablize an animal for a 3hr + trip, euthanasia is probably only the other option.
Of course colic surgeries are out...lol, it's either got better with non surgical treatment or it's lead injection time. Scheduled things beyond dressings and medication prescribed by our vets is out, as is anything beyond "ER" or anything "surgical" thats not immediately critical...it either gets transported 3 hrs or waits to the next clinic day. ...or patched up enough to travel or wait...i.e.local, stiched up, dressed and a splint/cast, start AB's, tetnus jab etc...and the vet will reasses in a few days and operate/treat further/whatever...
On our Clinic days, I step back to play the role of vet nurse except in my specialist areas...( I do the AI rather than the vets and consult for hoof/leg stuff etc, because they usually require corrective work somewhere in the process and I see a damn sight more feet than vets!)

There ISN'T much I can't handle in emergency situations, with my experience and what we have on hand.
I have also performed necropsies for insurance companies and take samples for Primary Industries in sudden stock deaths etc and assess cruelty/neglect matters for the RSPCA (again over 300km away)... Having a working knowledge of anatomy in a big range of critters helps!
Fecal worm counts and other basic lab work is also part of the deal... The basic Lab is here for the AI/ET etc, but we do whatever else we can in house as sending stuff off for labwork isn't exactly a 1hr turnaround!

Think yourselves bloody lucky you live on a postage stamp with everything at hand!
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That's all very well, but your attitude sucks and I wouldn't let you near my horse if you paid me.
 
Oberon said:
Not wishing to wade into this inevitable bunfight on farrier v trimmer or shod v barefoot

however

I have yet to actually meet a professional trimmer who has slagged off farriers.

I have met many farriers who slagged of trimmers though.

There is room on this earth for both professions - why can't we all just get on?
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Well said. I wasnt slagging off farriers i was stating that there training was based on different scientific values than i was taught as a fully qualified daep, The founder of the HPT method Kc La Pierre was a master farrier and blacksmith for 25+ years He developed his method due to the fact no matter how good he made a shoe he never quite got the foot he wanted so he went back to basics looked at each structure and its performance. As a daep i am also obliged to continue my training year on year to keep up with new scientific discoverys. Im not on here to argue with farriers i came on here to help people. There are lots of good farriers but also lots of good eps and daeps too
 
carmmaponys said:
Well said. I wasnt slagging off farriers i was stating that there training was based on different scientific values than i was taught as a fully qualified daep, The founder of the HPT method Kc La Pierre was a master farrier and blacksmith for 25+ years He developed his method due to the fact no matter how good he made a shoe he never quite got the foot he wanted so he went back to basics looked at each structure and its performance. As a daep i am also obliged to continue my training year on year to keep up with new scientific discoverys. Im not on here to argue with farriers i came on here to help people. There are lots of good farriers but also lots of good eps and daeps too
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It's great that you're here and I look forward to learning from you :) However it's worth remembering that not everyone agrees 100% with KC's trimming methods or his theories on hoof function. It pays to be open minded, listen to other people's opinions/experiences and not adhere too slavishly to any one person's dogma, we are all human and as such we're never 100% right 100% of the time ;)
 
My, aren't we all having fun :D How did I miss this thread?!

My take on barefoot:

At best shoeing a horse will preserve the natural inherant hoof health. It's not going to make them much better and if they're crap to start with it's a very steep and long hill up back.

At every show, hunt, ride competition and livery yard I see badly damaged and deformed shod feet - the 'shoe sick' feet - there are a LOT of them out there and sadly many owners don't have a clue. Many of them are very well cared for and have their feet attented to regularly.

I have yet to see a hoof 'damaged' by being barefoot. I've seen nothing that a quick trim wouldn't sort out. Cracked hooves are not a sole property of barefoot hooves (infact they're far more common in shod horses, since they're mostly caused by an inbalance). Abcesssing happens in both shod and unshod horses (more common in shod). Tatty edges are just cosmetic. And being a bit footy over rough ground is only a lack of toughing up - and that lack of toughness comes almost exclusively from being previously shod!! Bruising and overly short feet are a sign the foot hasn't caught up with the demand yet and a mistake on the owners part. Neglagent owners who allow their poor horses feet to become over grown aren't allowed in our 'barefoot cult' and therefore don't count. ;)

For that reason I would call shoeing 'damaging'.

I beleive that ANY horse (bar the very small minority with seriously deformed feet) came work happily without shoes HOWEVER it can be more hassle that it's worth for horses with more complicated needs. And, although I've probarefoot, I would shoe a horse if keeping it comfortable barefoot was to much effort and hassle.

I'm rather anti-farrier because putting shoes on is their FIRST resort when things don't go quite to plan. Plenty of farriers will say 'sure, try barefoot' but the second an obstacle is reached (usually footiness) they put shoes back on without taking time to wonder WHY it's happened and correct it. The fact the horse is grazing in a field up to it's fetlocks in grass is not something most farriers will advice you on.

To me (and hopefully any good trimmer) putting shoes on is a LAST resort. If i've tried changing the diet and mangement and boots and the horse still isn't comfortable , or the changes needed are too extreme for them to have an acceptable quality of life (think - no grass ever, so no friends) then i'd put shoes on the horse.

I also believe that's why there is a market for barefoot trimmers - a farrier does not provide a 'holistic' approach to hoof care - they either shoe your horse or they don't. I've yet to meet one who will advice on feeding and management and offer alternatives to nailing shoes on the feet, or way to improve the feet without shoe involvement. I'm sure such farriers exisit, there's just very few of them!

However I diasgree entirely that the majority of farriers don't do an excellent job trimming barefoot horses. Yes, there's some idiots who par off all the sole, or mutiliate the heels but then so does Strasser............ Almost all the farriers I'e met do a excellent barefoot trim, they just don't provide any other advice. (and once you're horse is doing enough work to self trim it honestly don't matter what trim you give the foot - it reverts to it's prefered shape within a week anyways!)

As TeddyT rightly pointed out - it's the way humans manage horses that damage their feet (and their body's and natural beahviours) so much that they need shoes on - the horse would manage fine barefoot if it wasn't for us interfering! I just feel it's a my duty to try and manage my horses are best as possible to minamis the damage so they can manage barefoot, and use that as a benchmark sign that I'm getting it right!

So to sum up (and manage to make myself sound massively evangalical about it all (which I'm not, honestly!)) - shoes do damage feet but owners shoe their horse for ease! ;)
 
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gekko said:
Awww youre upset? My work here is done!

You won't see random or unfounded obscenities, just well found and well directed ones at appropriate times and places....and believe me, some of the rubbish spouted by certain folks round here has required severe self restraint! I have felt like beating some folks with the spade at times!

If you actually read through this thread, you will find my opinion is one of the more balanced and accepting...But I HAVE spoken up against distortions and wild statements by some folks who really need to realise they don't quite have all the facts or a balanced view of them.

Feel free to skip by my posts should you be horribly offended by the unsweetened truth and ungarnished facts. If you can't add your own sugar (or artifical sweetner, for those watching their calories) just deal with it or skip it, either way I won't be offended (or more honestly, give a damn).
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Upset? No, just got the mental "ignore" button switched on. It takes a lot more than some Aussie farrier who is a bit up himself to upset me.
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I do understand what it's like when you don't have easy access to vets by the way, having spent some time in SA training with horses.
 
Kallibear said:
My, aren't we all having fun :D How did I miss this thread?!

My take on barefoot:

At best shoeing a horse will preserve the natural inherant hoof health. It's not going to make them much better and if they're crap to start with it's a very steep and long hill up back.

At every show, hunt, ride competition and livery yard I see badly damaged and deformed shod feet - the 'shoe sick' feet - there are a LOT of them out there and sadly many owners don't have a clue. Many of them are very well cared for and have their feet attented to regularly.

I have yet to see a hoof 'damaged' by being barefoot. I've seen nothing that a quick trim wouldn't sort out. Cracked hooves are not a sole property of barefoot hooves (infact they're far more common in shod horses, since they're mostly caused by an inbalance). Abcesssing happens in both shod and unshod horses (more common in shod). Tatty edges are just cosmetic. And being a bit footy over rough ground is only a lack of toughing up - and that lack of toughness comes almost exclusively from being previously shod!! Bruising and overly short feet are a sign the foot hasn't caught up with the demand yet and a mistake on the owners part. Neglagent owners who allow their poor horses feet to become over grown aren't allowed in our 'barefoot cult' and therefore don't count. ;)

For that reason I would call shoeing 'damaging'.

I beleive that ANY horse (bar the very small minority with seriously deformed feet) came work happily without shoes HOWEVER it can be more hassle that it's worth for horses with more complicated needs. And, although I've probarefoot, I would shoe a horse if keeping it comfortable barefoot was to much effort and hassle.

I'm rather anti-farrier because putting shoes on is their FIRST resort when things don't go quite to plan. Plenty of farriers will say 'sure, try barefoot' but the second an obstacle is reached (usually footiness) they put shoes back on without taking time to wonder WHY it's happened and correct it. The fact the horse is grazing in a field up to it's fetlocks in grass is not something most farriers will advice you on.

To me (and hopefully any good trimmer) putting shoes on is a LAST resort. If i've tried changing the diet and mangement and boots and the horse still isn't comfortable , or the changes needed are too extreme for them to have an acceptable quality of life (think - no grass ever, so no friends) then i'd put shoes on the horse.

I also believe that's why there is a market for barefoot trimmers - a farrier does not provide a 'holistic' approach to hoof care - they either shoe your horse or they don't. I've yet to meet one who will advice on feeding and management and offer alternatives to nailing shoes on the feet, or way to improve the feet without shoe involvement. I'm sure such farriers exisit, there's just very few of them!

However I diasgree entirely that the majority of farriers don't do an excellent job trimming barefoot horses. Yes, there's some idiots who par off all the sole, or mutiliate the heels but then so does Strasser............ Almost all the farriers I'e met do a excellent barefoot trim, they just don't provide any other advice. (and once you're horse is doing enough work to self trim it honestly don't matter what trim you give the foot - it reverts to it's prefered shape within a week anyways!)

As TeddyT rightly pointed out - it's the way humans manage horses that damage their feet (and their body's and natural beahviours) so much that they need shoes on - the horse would manage fine barefoot if it wasn't for us interfering! I just feel it's a my duty to try and manage my horses are best as possible to minamis the damage so they can manage barefoot, and use that as a benchmark sign that I'm getting it right!

So to sum up (and manage to make myself sound massively evangalical about it all (which I'm not, honestly!)) - shoes do damage feet but owners shoe their horse for ease! ;)
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Thanks Kallibear - how refreshing indeed and it rings quite true with me. I sincerely hope that when someone asks about the hoof shod or unshod we can have balanced answers from farriers and podiatrists in a non-condescending way to each other and the owner. Answers that help, not hinder as best possble on a FORUM. (You can't actually see the hoof in question so can't make wild assumptions)

After all, it is based on individual needs and it's not always just about the hoof (in my case) it's about everything else too.
 
It is interesting to note that in the 5000 yrs or so since the domesticated horse was first known to be used extensively by early civilizations on a massive scale, the first documented treatises on the care of the horse was written by Xenophon, a cavalry officer, in 350 BC, makes no mention of the horse being shod. There is no record of the Romans shoeing horses though the use of a leather hoof boot or sandel was used in some circumstances. Indeed the first reference to horses being shod may be in the Koran 610AD, what is certain that it is by the time of the Crusades 1096-1270 when war horses were generally shod. As horses used for military purposes where in effect clad in metal, the addition of metal shoes to make it a more effective killing machine is unremarkable.

In the last 800 years or so the routine shoeing of horses appears to have become the normal thing to do, though the actual benefits from shoeing appears less defined. It is more than likely that the life span of a shod military horse was short, and would not have shown up the wear tear and damage of prolonged shoeing of an individulal horse.

The arguement used latterly that metalled roads require horses to be shod, appears unfounded as this sort of surface has been shown to benefit unshod horses over shod, as the impact on hoves which cannot flex on impact transfere the effects of the impact through the leg.

It is doubtful that the first shoeing of horses would have taken into account the effects of reduced blood flow into the hoof, and the weakening of the sole being used as a bridge rather than a support. The perceived advantages of a foot with less feeling would have given the impression that the steel shoe protected the foot and allowed limits of the horse to be expanded, where damage and lameness showed up less severely and more slowly, though argueably the damage was greater and more severe.
 
Yes, I think we shoe for our convenience. It means we can keep horses in limited space and stables etc. and work wherever and whenever we want. The fact that this type of life and management is almost the opposite of where and how horses evolved to live seems to be of little consequence to us humans over the ages, we needed horses and so we used horses. The fact that shoeing is better for some is down to the way we keep them and our need to have a horse that works on demand, I'm not going to sugar coat this!

There have been many who have seen the problems horses have over the centuries and have promoted more horse friendly thinking but generally they were in the minority and with limited communication and the Traditions that have evolved around Horsemanship, most of us just carried on being 'human'. These days we are in a unique position where us ordinary owners can share and learn from scientists and experienced Horsman/women with a variety of views and thinking, so, for perhaps the first time we can make informed choices from information we can gleen from around the world rather than just local.
I know horse keeping for pleasure is relatively new but I feel we are so lucky to have access to all this info and be empowered to do the best we can for our horses rather than just use them like machines to be mended by 'mechanics'. Many of the common problems horses have, ulcers, lameness, laminitis, cribbing, box walking etc. etc. etc. are caused mainly by our management and we are beginning to have knowledge to prevent a lot of these things if WE are prepared to use our brains and be inventive in difficult circumstances.

I am not going to apologise for being evangelical on behalf of horses.
 
gekko said:
Yes, I am a Master Farrier.
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Did you train in South Australia for that? Because as far as i am aware there is no formal training for farriers there and most people practising farriery in Australia tend to go on a 3 year part time certificate 3 in Farriery course at TAFE

Which when you look at it is no more studying time than many of the trimmers working under professional bodies in the UK undergo.

Im not saying there is anything wrong with that either - its just I don't see that you are any more qualified to have an opinion on feet than some of the practising podiatrists who have studied long and hard in the UK have done. Most also have to complete compulsory CPD on a yearly basis to retain their accreditation.

Also, one of the leading trimming organisations was started by a farrier of very high standing in the USA, so you might like to check out his website:
http://www.appliedequinepodiatry.org/iaep/index.html

What I can't understand about you Gekko is why you are getting so upset and offended by people using the term 'barefoot', and also the complete lack of acknowledgement that barefoot horses and trimmers do have a place in the UK horse industry. Is there any reason to be so rude and aggressive in your posts and PM's?

Why do you feel the need to be so rude and arguementative?

Barefoot trimmers are saving the lives of horses otherwise condemed to death here in the UK by farriers and vets - is that such a bad thing?

And farriers also have a very big role to play too - there is enough horses for everyone and there are as many bad farriers as there are trimmers as there are vets or dentists or whatever....
 
Spinal Tap said:
It's great that you're here and I look forward to learning from you :) However it's worth remembering that not everyone agrees 100% with KC's trimming methods or his theories on hoof function. It pays to be open minded, listen to other people's opinions/experiences and not adhere too slavishly to any one person's dogma, we are all human and as such we're never 100% right 100% of the time ;)
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Here here - well said. I follow KC's methods, but am happy to continue learning and if a better way comes along then i'm happy to change - this is part of evolving and being the best you can be.
 
Nastyness but especially by pm is unacceptable imo! Grrr.

I too believe there is a place for Farriers and Trimmers and they and we should all be working together to share knowledge and experiences to help us all move forward. Being nasty just polarizes people and stops productive discussion imo.
 
amandap said:
Nastyness but especially by pm is unacceptable imo! Grrr.

I too believe there is a place for Farriers and Trimmers and they and we should all be working together to share knowledge and experiences to help us all move forward. Being nasty just polarizes people and stops productive discussion imo.
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Oh yes I had a PM - luckily i'm not the sensitive type and have chosen to ignore it. I will say everything I have to say to Gekko here on an open forum. I just hope he doesn't lose his temper like that while he is around horses.

And I do think there is a place for everyone - productive discussion between farriers and trimmers can only mean improvement on the horses behalf surely?
 
How bout you just post the PM here for everyone instead of trying to make it out to be something far from what it was! It was a simple reply to your attempt to discredit me, where I pointed out a few things and thanked you for bringing to my attention a very outdated page that is missing quite a bit of information.... Now are you going to show some honesty and post it or do I?

Honestly folks, as I've said many a time I'm blunt. Deal with it. It's NOT nasty just unsweetened, and if you are reading "nasty" into any of my posts that is YOUR doing!

Again - Blunt, undiplomatic and uncompromising with the facts....DEAL WITH IT!

Oh....and I'm also incredibly modest! ;-)

Now....As for Farrier Training in SA, yep there is formal appreticeship training, 4 years including TAFE classroom modules... although ANYONE can call themself a farrier in Australia, we don't have near enough regulation in that regards... But Master Farriers must be formally trained (or "grandfathered in"from before the current system of formal training was established) and complete ongoing profesional development training. Most states are very similar in that respect. I trained interstate some years ago under the older style apprenticship sysytem and probably had it quite a bit easier than current apprentices when it comes to the classroom part...but made up for it a lot in the next few years... Eventually I specialised in corrective work, mainly for the TB industry and rehab for founder and navicular cases( and shock horror! Much of that without shoes!) Nowdays I basicly shoe almost NOTHING due to a stuffed back and limit my work beyond our own 40 odd horses to specialist corrective work...probably 95% of it unshod...again Sock horror! But when the situation requires a special corrective shoe I can do it. THAT is the big difference I see with Farriers and barefooters...beyond the additional training...One method or the ability to use a variety of methods.(and the openness to do it...) A farrier can barefoot, but a barefooter can't shoe.
 
teddyt said:
Because the locomotion of horses in the wild is totally different to domesticated ones. The diet, terrain and type of exercise are different. for example, in the wild horses move slowly for the majority of the time with a few short bursts of speed. Domesticated horses are mainly kept in a stable and small paddocks, fed differently and ridden relatively hard for 1-2 hours a day. The process of domestication is actually very alien to the horses musculoskeletal system and means that many horses need to be shod in order for them to cope with the domestication. Breeding for speed, dressage,etc has also in many cases simultaneously bred poor feet.

Of course if the domesticated horse is managed in a certain way then shoes are not necessarily required but not everyone is able or willing to carry out this management and for some horses it is just easier/ better for the owner to have them shod.
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Having read the above post, I think it highlights the view that shoeing horses is really done for the ease and convenience of the owner, rather than the benefit of the horse.

I feel that it is beholden on anyone who owns and keeps a horse that they should make every effort to manage thier horse in such a way that it is not fed the wrong diet, is not confined to a stable (think cage) for the majority of its time, in isolation and is not just ridden hard, but warmed up and exercised properly.

I appreciate that many people take advice from other horse owners or yard managers and owners and endevour to fit their horse into the management system they are presented with. Systems developed over time for the benefit of the livery owner, the manager, the feed company, the fields, the farrier everything except the benefit of the horse.
 
AndySpooner said:
Having read the above post, I think it highlights the view that shoeing horses is really done for the ease and convenience of the owner, rather than the benefit of the horse.

I feel that it is beholden on anyone who owns and keeps a horse that they should make every effort to manage thier horse in such a way that it is not fed the wrong diet, is not confined to a stable (think cage) for the majority of its time, in isolation and is not just ridden hard, but warmed up and exercised properly.

I appreciate that many people take advice from other horse owners or yard managers and owners and endevour to fit their horse into the management system they are presented with. Systems developed over time for the benefit of the livery owner, the manager, the feed company, the fields, the farrier everything except the benefit of the horse.
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I totally agree. Especially the bit i have put in bold
 
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