Barefoot???

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marinitagsd

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I have owned horses for 30yrs plus and never gone barefoot but defo considering it now due to finances and shoes coming off! I have 2 TB's and don't really do alot of roadwork due to our village getting more like the M6 motorway by the day!
My girls have been without back shoes for a couple of weeks and seem ok but they really feel it when a front comes off on harder ground, which is pretty regular at the moment, my question........how long does it normally take for feet to harden? Both are on biotin and Ii use Kevein Bacon Ointment daily.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Anita
 
It can take 6 months plus, with my girlie it took nearly a year. Try boots in the meantime maybe? they helped us a lot even tho we dont need them any longer. They give the horse confidence that hard surfaces wont hurt them, which is vital and they stilll let the hooves harden up gradually.
 
It depends on the horses themselves. Some horses manage wonderfully, some need certain adaptations to their feeding and management, some just don't cope at all.

Feet First is a book that may help if you are new to barefoot.

Barefooters usually steer clear of putting any type of dressing or lotion on the foot, best to leave them alone.

Feet usually need - correct diet (low sugar/starch), stimulation of varying surfaces and clearing up any infection.

As long as their diets are adequate and they are infection free, they should transition easily. If they are footy - boots will help.
 
Diet is also an important factor going barefoot, you should get an experienced equine podiatrist or hoof practitioner to assess diet amongst other things...

It could take 6 months or longer depending on quality.

You may even need boots to begin with. Tarmac is great for getting hooves used to being bf so walk them everyday if you can.
 
i went to look at a horse a couple of weeks ago with a friend who was looking for an alrounder/hunter.

this horse was advertised as such, (jumped , hunted in ireland etc), when we got there he was berefoot, he had been for a fortnight, my friend hopped on and walked out of the barn, the poor horse then hobbled up the lane, he was the sorest i had ever seen a horse, he was lame on all four feet.

is this normal? do you have to ride your horse lame until there feet harden? surly this could cause bad behavior, he will soon start napping just because he was in pain.

a bit off topic i know, but i have been thinking about this horse a lot since, wondering if she was going about it all wrong.
needless to say we didn't but the poor crippled creature, although she did try to tell us he was normally a forward ride, i really think she expected us to take her word for it
 
Challenging the established view is always asking to get your butt whipped.

But I have a very fat butt and maybe it will help me shed a few pounds :-)

Much is said about how we have bred the feet off TBs. But All the TBs I see have some dietary issues. I am sure there are TBs that don't have dietary issues - but I just never get to see them! :-)

I suspect that the 'problematic' TB feet are just reflecting something else. ie problems digesting what we are feeding them.

There is research that shows that a high proportion of racehorses are suffering sub clinical laminitis. (because of how they are fed, not because they are fat)

Except those trained by Simon Earle - his TBs have great feet and aren't footy and they are also bare - but I understand that they don't get a trad TB diet either.

So while we are conditioned to watch out for signs of lami in ponys and cobs it is not seemed to be such an issue for TBs.

But when I pull shoes on TBs I am as likely to find a stretched white line and blood as I am when I pull from ponys or cobs. Go figure.

To go with the stretched white line and blood are event lines (usually rasped out by previous hoof professional) a foot that is trying to scoot forward, so the toe wall has been thinned, heels that are collapsing and very thin soles.

These are all diet and management related.

They can, if you can stick to the required protocol, be resolved.

It does take time.

How long is up to you. Some have it fixed in weeks, others take longer. The 'trauma' that some people face in having to change how they think/feed/manage their horses should not be under estimated.

Which is why the clients that are facing a 'PTS or change how your manage your horse' decision sometimes find it easier, whereas those who are maybe doing it for other reasons, find the rethinking much harder, because the stakes are not so high.

And to get back to the question - 'How long does it take the feet to harden?'

Some of this is diet, a good diet allows the horse to grow high quality horn.
Some of it is movement and surfaces. Movement stimulates the foot to grow, the surfaces provided will alter what is grown. (Ok hard to accept but it happens.)

Sloshing around in mud 24/7 is not helpful. But I do look after horses that do this, but because they work so hard (on roads largely), they have very tough feet. Whereas the horse that wanders from paddock to shavings bed with very little work and an indifferent diet is more likely (not always) to have softer feet.

Try contacting http://www.rockcrunchers.co.uk/ for hands on advice
 
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gwenllian said:
i went to look at a horse a couple of weeks ago with a friend who was looking for an alrounder/hunter.

this horse was advertised as such, (jumped , hunted in ireland etc), when we got there he was berefoot, he had been for a fortnight, my friend hopped on and walked out of the barn, the poor horse then hobbled up the lane, he was the sorest i had ever seen a horse, he was lame on all four feet.

is this normal? do you have to ride your horse lame until there feet harden? surly this could cause bad behavior, he will soon start napping just because he was in pain.

a bit off topic i know, but i have been thinking about this horse a lot since, wondering if she was going about it all wrong.
needless to say we didn't but the poor crippled creature, although she did try to tell us he was normally a forward ride, i really think she expected us to take her word for it
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Yikes! Poor horse!

No horse should be ridden if it's in pain. Taking a horse's shoes off should be done under advice of a specialist (be it a barefoot friendly farrier or a trimmer of excellent repute) and planning should be made (dietry changes beforehand, boots etc).

A horse may be uncomfortable at first (and I mean a few days to a week) but certainly not hopping lame. A horse that is lame should not be ridden AT ALL. Walking in-hand when it is ready would be enough.

If a horse has it's shoes pulled and it's in pain then it should have them back on and have a rethink as to what preperation was missed the first time!

When the diet has been improved and grown a stronger foot and there is no chance of infection in the foot, then it is time to pull the shoes again and get some boots sorted pronto.

Sorry for rambling but I am so offended when owners think it's OK to go barefoot and leave a horse in pain. It's NOT ok and it makes us 'barefoot taliban' look bad......:(
 
Have been researching barefoot/shod for a few months now. My boy had to have his shoes taken off at the end of summer cos his feet were not growing. Have finally bitten the bullet and am having a barefoot trimmer from the UKNHCP register coming out tomorrow. Decided this cos my farrier said "dont believe in all that barefoot rubbish." She will be under a lot of scrutiny from everyone at my yard which will be very interesting.
 
LucyPriory said:
Challenging the established view is always asking to get your butt whipped.

But I have a very fat butt and maybe it will help me shed a few pounds :-)

Much is said about how we have bred the feet off TBs. But All the TBs I see have some dietary issues. I am sure there are TBs that don't have dietary issues - but I just never get to see them! :-)

I suspect that the 'problematic' TB feet are just reflecting something else. ie problems digesting what we are feeding them.

There is research that shows that a high proportion of racehorses are suffering sub clinical laminitis. (because of how they are fed, not because they are fat)

Except those trained by Simon Earle - his TBs have great feet and aren't footy and they are also bare - but I understand that they don't get a trad TB diet either.

So while we are conditioned to watch out for signs of lami in ponys and cobs it is not seemed to be such an issue for TBs.

But when I pull shoes on TBs I am as likely to find a stretched white line and blood as I am when I pull from ponys or cobs. Go figure.

To go with the stretched white line and blood are event lines (usually rasped out by previous hoof professional) a foot that is trying to scoot forward, so the toe wall has been thinned, heels that are collapsing and very thin soles.

These are all diet and management related.

They can, if you can stick to the required protocol, be resolved.

It does take time.

How long is up to you. Some have it fixed in weeks, others take longer. The 'trauma' that some people face in having to change how they think/feed/manage their horses should not be under estimated.

Which is why the clients that are facing a 'PTS or change how your manage your horse' decision sometimes find it easier, whereas those who are maybe doing it for other reasons, find the rethinking much harder, because the stakes are not so high.

And to get back to the question - 'How long does it take the feet to harden?'

Some of this is diet, a good diet allows the horse to grow high quality horn.
Some of it is movement and surfaces. Movement stimulates the foot to grow, the surfaces provided will alter what is grown. (Ok hard to accept but it happens.)

Sloshing around in mud 24/7 is not helpful. But I do look after horses that do this, but because they work so hard (on roads largely), they have very tough feet. Whereas the horse that wanders from paddock to shavings bed with very little work and an indifferent diet is more likely (not always) to have softer feet.

Try contacting http://www.rockcrunchers.co.uk/ for hands on advice
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Interesting!

My TB is barefoot and has been for a few months because he's been off work, but he naturally has great feet (even though he's an ex racer and their feet can be appalling!), he has no dietary problems and is a good doer, built more in the traditional sense, not stick thin and narrow. In the spring I'll be looking to rehome him but will let any perspective buyer decide whether they want him to be shod or other wise, as he might well have good enough feet to go barefoot!
 
Poor horse should NOT be ridden if lame. Read "Feet First" by Nic Barker and Sarah Braithwaite. What you are aiming for is a healthy foot which comes from a combination of diet, trim, exercise. An unshod foot can be unhealthy too if not given the right conditions. There is a difference in a foot which is OK for walking around a pasture, and a working foot that can go over different terrain carrying a rider.

A trimmer is likely to have a lot more experience with working barefoot horses, so can offer support and advice from their own experience, but make sure they are registered with a recognised barefoot organisation and have insurance. Some farriers will help, but some just laugh and say it is a fad and put shoes back if there are any problems, whereas a trimmer will help you work through it and make different suggestions.
 
Why would you take a horses shoes off just before you selll it? Could foot soreness from taking off shoes be used to cover up other issues?
 
lizness said:
Why would you take a horses shoes off just before you selll it? Could foot soreness from taking off shoes be used to cover up other issues?
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He's been barefoot since June/July and I won't be trying to find a home for him until March time. He was a little footy first few days, but is now galloping around the field and had no problems on the gravel area where they are fed.
 
Interesting post. I had my old girls hinds taken off about 8 weeks ago, the farrier left them a bit longer the trim before they were taken off (if that makes sense). The reasoning behind this was a) in a vain hope it may help her arthritus a little, b) because she finds it a bit chalenging to hold her hinds up for the farrier now and c) to ease the pennies, particulalry as we dont do much road work in the winter.

Farrier said it would probably be about 2-3 weeks to harden up - but the terible weather and sodden fields havent helped.

Initialy she couldnt be ridden out so I walked her in hand down our private track 3 or 4 times a week in hand, then after 2 weeks started riding in the fields and ventured out on the track, scooting from flat bits to the verges and gradualy increasing distance. On Saturday we did about an hours hack on varied terrain, with some trots, but we still only walk on stony/gravely bits. She is definately hardening up nicely and her flat soles are already getting a more concave shape. The other bonus was she only cost £45 rather than £70 at the last farrier vist. When she is totaly happy with her hinds off I may consider fronts
 
I've got a barefoot tb and getting the diet absolutely right really helped. It was already pretty good as he reacts to sugar so I was already avoiding it but I had a forage analysis done and minerals balanced to it (our pasture was particularly unbalanced) and it was worth it to watch my farrier struggle to trim his back feet the other week.

Don't discount roadwork, lots of gentle work on nice smooth tarmac is really good for stimulating the feet and we try and do as much as we can but only as long as your horse is comfortable.

His feet completely changed shape from "typical TB feet" to ones that don't look bad at all.
 
lizness said:
Why would you take a horses shoes off just before you selll it? Could foot soreness from taking off shoes be used to cover up other issues?
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lord knows, her advert said open to any vet, i tried to explain that you could not vet a horse in his state as the vet needs to see him trot up on hard ground, she then raised her voice and said "well i am not putting shoes back on and i am not bothered if i sell him or not"
( if she was not bothered, wht eas he advertised on two sites that i saw)

we left feeling lucky we had not travelled far, shame he was a nice horse and would have had a fab home

how can someone expect you to buy a lame horse on her word that he is sound really, just foot sore
 
Magicmillbrook said:
Interesting post. I had my old girls hinds taken off about 8 weeks ago, the farrier left them a bit longer the trim before they were taken off (if that makes sense). The reasoning behind this was a) in a vain hope it may help her arthritus a little, b) because she finds it a bit chalenging to hold her hinds up for the farrier now and c) to ease the pennies, particulalry as we dont do much road work in the winter.

Farrier said it would probably be about 2-3 weeks to harden up - but the terible weather and sodden fields havent helped.

Initialy she couldnt be ridden out so I walked her in hand down our private track 3 or 4 times a week in hand, then after 2 weeks started riding in the fields and ventured out on the track, scooting from flat bits to the verges and gradualy increasing distance. On Saturday we did about an hours hack on varied terrain, with some trots, but we still only walk on stony/gravely bits. She is definately hardening up nicely and her flat soles are already getting a more concave shape. The other bonus was she only cost £45 rather than £70 at the last farrier vist. When she is totaly happy with her hinds off I may consider fronts
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Hi, my farrier advised the same, left them long then removed fronts. No preparation but then I feed my horses a very natural diet and very sparsely keeping a big eye on their weight, horses arent designed for all these high sugars/supplements etc. I dont use specialist 'trimmers' farrier gives him a trim when needed and then he grows to his own way of going. My boy was a bit sore initially but we were sensible and bulit up gradually, now he hacks out with other shod horses no problems, sometimes a bit footy on stones but improving. I used hoof hardener which helped loads, no other potions/lotions except for Kevin Bacons on the frog if it gets a bit smelly. Its all natural ingredients, mostly vinegar I think.
He did a week at pony club camp jumping grids and cross country and was more sure footed than the shod horses. He had tweaked a suspensory the previous camp jumping grids when shod which was due to poor foot balance i'm sure. I think its mostly common sense unless you have a real problem already. I feel there is a lot of mystique surrounding barefoot which is not needed. My young horse has just had his shoes removed for surgery, his feet are so hard and sound he didnt bat an eyelid when I led him out in hand on stones and gravel, I forgot he was bare! Thinking I wont have him reshod!
 
Great advice already on here so my twopennyworth in addition is not needed :)

Save to say it is NOT the answer when taking your horse barefoot to "leave the feet a bit longer". All that will do is lever at any white line attachment issues that you have (and the vast majority of horses newly out of shoes have white line disease) and may make the horse more sore than it need be. It's also asking for splits and cracks to form. And if the horse has strong thick horn it will prevent the buildup of the sole callous and packing down of the frog which is what you should be aiming for.

Barefoot feet look VERY short if you are used to seeing horses in shoes.
 
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sorry, dont agree, my farrier is great and very good so when i say 'long' all I mean is that we took the shoes off a couple of weeks after he would normally have been shod, it worked fine and my YO who is an old fashioned Cotswold horsewoman had sad exactly the same. Just give a bit of hoof to work with when they're a bit footy, as I say.. common sense and makes perfect sense, but as with anything 'horsey' it has to be made into some mystical thing, it isnt! I have read and studied all about barefoot and had my boy this way for a while now, no big deal its what horses were designed for after all, keep the diet as natural as possible, limited grazing feed mostly hay and alls well! Different if there are already established problems obviously.
 
to those experienced...

what is the difference between low heel trims and high ones... I know for example some boots (renegades) can only fit hooves trimmed a certain way and others fit ones with higher trims.

I don't get this bit, apart from assuming some horses feet were built different but still... those questions come a-nagging at me!!!
 
It can take a long time for the feet to find their way and true balance. My mare had the most terrible thin and papery feet. They were so contacted that one front hoof was bigger than the other and a completely different shape too. They also had this verticle wave and ripple to them like ice cream which seemed very odd, as well as the cracks and white line?

She hated shoes though and her behaivour was horrendous. She deliberatly pulled them herself, even in front of the farrier one day as he was loading his van to leave, she popped one off on a stable door hinge just like she'd pulled a bottle top!

Even though they said she could NEVER go barefoot, she has. At first she was very footy but even so, I never once felt she would like her shoes back on, even though I wanted to throw in the towel she didn't. I'm 100% certain that she thought it was worth all the discomfort.

It has taken us 18 months to get them as good as they are and they are still improving. We had to see several regrowths for the structure to improve and repair, before I could say for certain that we were getting somewhere and that we would not be putting shoes back on.

It's all been worth it though and they now look fantastic and I'm sure she feels great as she is a very happy barefoot horse.

Don't look for the quick fix though, as it an be a real leap of faith and damm hard work. It is a must that you are commited and believe it can be done. It takes years of a horse wearing 24/7 poor shoeing for the feet to become such a jellified mess, so it's unfair to think that in 2 weeks it'll all come right, because it won't.

Inside the shell of the hoof wall there are very complex structures that have been forced and contracted into a twisted shape and form and where there should be strength, there is weakness.

It's not all about the hoof and how shiney it looks from the outside, or how hard the horn, or wether you will be galloping along a stoney track in a week on rock hard soles. For you to have any success at all, it has to be about the whole picture.

And most of all, it has to be for the love of your horse.
 
Nigsha said:
sorry, dont agree, my farrier is great and very good so when i say 'long' all I mean is that we took the shoes off a couple of weeks after he would normally have been shod, it worked fine and my YO who is an old fashioned Cotswold horsewoman had sad exactly the same. Just give a bit of hoof to work with when they're a bit footy, as I say.. common sense and makes perfect sense, but as with anything 'horsey' it has to be made into some mystical thing, it isnt! I have read and studied all about barefoot and had my boy this way for a while now, no big deal its what horses were designed for after all, keep the diet as natural as possible, limited grazing feed mostly hay and alls well! Different if there are already established problems obviously.
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I'm not being mystical, I'm being factual. The horse is not designed to walk on its hoof wall. It is designed to walk on its sole, heel plane and frog, and only on the inner hoof wall, if that. You got away with it with one horse is all that happened. Lucky you. If you had had any white line issues or thin hoof wall your horse would have been sore or its feet would have cracked at the bottom and really worried you. I despair of the number of horses who are described as "couldn't cope" because their feet were left too long and put back in shoes because their feet cracked and the owner panicked.

How many horses does your farrier (and your good old fashioned yard owner) have barefoot in really hard work?

You have simply had one easy horse. Thank your lucky stars, I wish they were all that way and every horse in the country would be shoeless.
 
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cptrayes said:
I'm not being mystical, I'm being factual. The horse is not designed to walk on its hoof wall. It is designed to walk on its sole, heel plane and frog, and only on the inner hoof wall, if that. You got away with it with one horse is all that happened. Lucky you. If you had had any white line issues or thin hoof wall your horse would have been sore or its feet would have cracked at the bottom and really worried you. I despair of the number of horses who are described as "couldn't cope" because their feet were left too long and put back in shoes because their feet cracked and the owner panicked.

How many horses does your farrier (and your good old fashioned yard owner) have barefoot in really hard work?

You have simply had one easy horse. Thank your lucky stars, I wish they were all that way and every horse in the country would be shoeless.
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My farrier does a lot of bare foot trimming and is a remedial farrier. I think when he stated he would take a little less foot off and would leave it a little longer he also meant the sole and frog, rather than just hoof wall. I guess I am lucky too that my girl has responded well and has suffered none of the problems you describe above. I am not sure if you are a barefoot trimmer or just have a close interest in it. It is nice to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about however I think the tone of your reply is what adds more to fuel to the 'Farrier and shod V's Barefoot trimmers and unshod' debate. That cant be good for the barefoot cause!
 
It will be a lot worse for "the barefoot cause" (if there is such a thing?) if a lot of people think that their horses feet should be left long when they have the shoes taken off and the feet then crack. Those people will then tell their friends and acquaintances, and possibly post on this forum, "not all horses can do it you know, mine couldn't" and put other people off even trying. Even Pete Ramey made this mistake at first, and his book explains what an idiot he feels now because he rushed to put shoes back on his turned away showjumpers to stop their feet cracking.

We are reaching a difficult stage now with barefoot where there is a large population of people who have gone barefoot with one horse. Some of these people are beginning to post on this forum as if their experience of the one horse can be extrapolated to all barefoot horses. I'm sorry that you disliked my tone, but I felt it was justified after having been told that I was reducing barefoot to "the mystical" when I was being entirely practical and speaking from experience of a lot of research and of rehabbing a number of very difficult cases. I am not a paid trimmer, hence I am also at liberty to speak from my heart as I have no business interests to protect.

To be honest I am not remotely interested in furthering any "barefoot cause", but in giving the right information to people considering going barefoot.
 
cptrayes said:
It will be a lot worse for "the barefoot cause" (if there is such a thing?) if a lot of people think that their horses feet should be left long when they have the shoes taken off and the feet then crack. Those people will then tell their friends and acquaintances, and possibly post on this forum, "not all horses can do it you know, mine couldn't" and put other people off even trying. Even Pete Ramey made this mistake at first, and his book explains what an idiot he feels now because he rushed to put shoes back on his turned away showjumpers to stop their feet cracking.

We are reaching a difficult stage now with barefoot where there is a large population of people who have gone barefoot with one horse. Some of these people are beginning to post on this forum as if their experience of the one horse can be extrapolated to all barefoot horses. I'm sorry that you disliked my tone, but I felt it was justified after having been told that I was reducing barefoot to "the mystical" when I was being entirely practical and speaking from experience of a lot of research and of rehabbing a number of very difficult cases. I am not a paid trimmer, hence I am also at liberty to speak from my heart as I have no business interests to protect.

To be honest I am not remotely interested in furthering any "barefoot cause", but in giving the right information to people considering going barefoot.
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I suppose what I am trying to say is that there are many horses that could benefit from going barefoot. Most owners put a lot of faith in their farriers (mine has managed with 3 of my barefoot horses thus far) and when they see posts slating what they or their farrier have done from someone who is knowlegable about barefoot it may turn them away from trying - surely this would be a great shame?

I appreciate entirely what you are saying but for those coming from the mainstream way of footcare it creates a divide where there does not need to be one.
 
I have seen a farrier trim what they described as 'tight'. It looked similar to how a horse is trimmed for a shoe - ie a large surface around the outer edge of the hoof and including a portion of the sole are trimmed table top flat. To take the shoe.

This 'tight' trim left the horse (understandably) quite sore, as it was bare, not shod.

I think what is long to me and what is long to this farrier maybe quite different.

Equally the horse I recently trimmed with tin can feet had (to me) very long feet and to the previous hoof carer they were normal.

So without photos it can be hard to be entirely certain what people really mean.

When I mean tall I mean this (first photo on post): http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/houston-we-have-touch-down.html
 
LucyPriory said:
I have seen a farrier trim what they described as 'tight'. It looked similar to how a horse is trimmed for a shoe - ie a large surface around the outer edge of the hoof and including a portion of the sole are trimmed table top flat. To take the shoe.

This 'tight' trim left the horse (understandably) quite sore, as it was bare, not shod.

I think what is long to me and what is long to this farrier maybe quite different.

Equally the horse I recently trimmed with tin can feet had (to me) very long feet and to the previous hoof carer they were normal.

So without photos it can be hard to be entirely certain what people really mean.

When I mean tall I mean this (first photo on post): http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/houston-we-have-touch-down.html
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Exactly - my farrier of 8 years trims much shorter than my previous one, I was quite alarmed at first but we have never had a problem with any of ours barefoot or shod in all that time . I resent it when someone automaticaly presumes that because a farrier and not a barefoot trimmer has prepared a horse to go barefoot if must be wrong.

My god - that horse had long feet, It must be a hand shorter now - interesting site.
 
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