Barefooters opinions please - to stay barefoot or not? pics

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NicoleS_007

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Im in a conundrum as to put shoes on or stay with barefoot!! Mare in question is 4yr old ISH, shod infront and bare behind. She had fronts when we bought her in Jan and has never been shod behind so we just kept it the same. Her feet are in good condition, quite tough imo and shes not footy or sore even walking across the stony yard. BUT there are small stones getting caught between, ummm is it the white line? (see pic below), last time farrier shod/trimmed her 5 weeks ago he said to make sure and get all the stones out and she will be fine but if one was to get stuck far in there she would be lame. I asked if it would be best to get shoes but he said she should be fine this time round and maybe next time get shoes (so next week). Her feet were perfect until about 3 months ago after we hacked down a stoney (stones were very very fine) path we got back and there were little stones stuck, we hoof picked them out and then from crossing the yard everyday more and more stones started getting stuck so the gap got bigger to how it is atm. I try to avoid stoney areas due to this but its pretty much impossible as the yard has a large car/lorry park to go across to arena and field, but i tend to leave mud/shavings or poo in that bit so the stones cant get right in and that has made a huge difference. So whats your opinions, should we stay as we are until she *needs* them work wise or get shoes? Il add that we still hack her once/twice a week (mostly road or grass with avoidance of little stony path) and she still is not at all footy ...
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This was after being in the field, were picked out after picture was taken and was just mainly mud and a few stones as the poopy shavings stopped the stones getting right in ..
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My horse gets stones stuck too, I just pick them out. I am quite anal about picking out his feet. I do it before we ride and afterwards.

If she is not footy why would you put shoes back on? Sounds like she is doing fine as she is. My farrier says that little stones will always get stuck in the white line if they are barefoot and to not worry about it. So I don't. :)
 
Don't worry about the little stones---just pick them out---but do keep an eye on that white line. The widening of that "gap" I would think has very little to do with going on stony paths, and everything to do with white line separation thanks to weakened laminae, compromised by too much sugar. Shoeing will not solve that; only conceal it.
 
I would keep a carefull eye on this horse. The frog is overdeveloped, the sole appears flat and the sole is seperating from the wall. At the moment the general hoof shape is pretty good, but if at any point you feel that the hoof is becoming generally wider, then I wouldn't hestitate to shoe this horse, but you would need a skilled farrier to help draw the sides of the foot back in and prevent further seperation of the wall from the sole.
There is also a risk of infection and abcess with this horse's white line area. Do try not to let him stand in wet conditions. I would advise iodine spray on his soles.
 
Monkers said:
I would keep a carefull eye on this horse. The frog is overdeveloped, the sole appears flat and the sole is seperating from the wall. At the moment the general hoof shape is pretty good, but if at any point you feel that the hoof is becoming generally wider, then I wouldn't hestitate to shoe this horse, but you would need a skilled farrier to help draw the sides of the foot back in and prevent further seperation of the wall from the sole.
There is also a risk of infection and abcess with this horse's white line area. Do try not to let him stand in wet conditions. I would advise iodine spray on his soles.
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I don't understand "the frog is overdeveloped". Could you tell me a bit more about that. please?
 
Thanks for replies :) What would you guys suggest feed wise? Atm shes on haylage and a few handfuls of oats, she is overweight atm more of a 3.5 on a scale of 0-5 (3 being normal!) We have upped her workload to try and shed some weight but alas it has not worked so the haylage will be cut back. She is left out on a nearly bare field for about 6hrs a day but unfortunatly the slightest bit of rain makes it very muddy and puddley :(
 
Monkers said:
I would keep a carefull eye on this horse. The frog is overdeveloped, the sole appears flat and the sole is seperating from the wall. At the moment the general hoof shape is pretty good, but if at any point you feel that the hoof is becoming generally wider, then I wouldn't hestitate to shoe this horse, but you would need a skilled farrier to help draw the sides of the foot back in and prevent further seperation of the wall from the sole.
There is also a risk of infection and abcess with this horse's white line area. Do try not to let him stand in wet conditions. I would advise iodine spray on his soles.
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This sounds like "farrier" language, I've never heard that description of a foot from any barefoot practioner or literature.
 
It happens to my boy all the time, I just pick them out and forget about them they have never caused a problem and the farrier is always happy with his feet. So unless she is sore I wouldnt worry :).
 
There are lots of causes of flat feet/ wall seperation. If the wall of the foot begins to splay outwards and the sole loses its concavity, the foot begins to lose its ability to absorb concussion. To try to cope with this, the frog grows overlarge and spreads.
I feel this horse is showing early signs of a spreading hoof capsule. If you look at the outer angle of the wall there is a very slight splay in the bottom half of the hoof. If it was a front foot (therefore less upright in angle, rounder in shape and carrying more weight) I would shoe it immediately. As it is a hind the foot may not get worse, but as I said, I would keep a very careful eye, especially as the winter is coming and the horn might well become softer in damp conditions.
 
Could be the haylage, depends on when it was cut and what the weather conditions were like at the time, do you know?
Our horses have only got haylage cut mid May this year and it is very rich so I have been soaking it.
 
NicoleS_007 said:
Thanks for replies :) What would you guys suggest feed wise? Atm shes on haylage and a few handfuls of oats, she is overweight atm more of a 3.5 on a scale of 0-5 (3 being normal!) We have upped her workload to try and shed some weight but alas it has not worked so the haylage will be cut back. She is left out on a nearly bare field for about 6hrs a day but unfortunatly the slightest bit of rain makes it very muddy and puddley :(
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She's overweight - there's your answer. What's she been porking out at to get overweight:)
If it's the grass - then keep a close eye around the wet autumn and the frosts.

You could add some magnesium, which can help them with the grass.

I usually just keep an eye on my old boy and he's OK. The white line tends to ping back when the grass dies off.
I've started copper (and zinc) after doing an analysis, which plays a role in metabolism. Copper tends to be low in most grazing around the UK.
 
No, I am not a farrier, nor am I "allergic" to barefoot principles. I have however owned well over 100 horses over the last 25 years in the course of my business and have been responsible for their foot care. I have worked horses shod and unshod and have only ever had two foot abcesses and no bruised soles.

I don't wish to get into a debate about the rights and wrongs of shod versus unshod, as that had been done many times on this forum. I am just offering my opinion to the OP based on what I can see in her photos. It would be helpful to see pictures of the whole horse as body weight, conformation etc can have a massive impact on hoof capsule issues, which is an area often overlooked when debating hoof problems.
 
Monkers said:
There are lots of causes of flat feet/ wall seperation. If the wall of the foot begins to splay outwards and the sole loses its concavity, the foot begins to lose its ability to absorb concussion. To try to cope with this, the frog grows overlarge and spreads.
I feel this horse is showing early signs of a spreading hoof capsule. If you look at the outer angle of the wall there is a very slight splay in the bottom half of the hoof. If it was a front foot (therefore less upright in angle, rounder in shape and carrying more weight) I would shoe it immediately. As it is a hind the foot may not get worse, but as I said, I would keep a very careful eye, especially as the winter is coming and the horn might well become softer in damp conditions.
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Thanks, that's very interesting.

Can I ask what happens with a spreading hoof capsule if allowed to continue? I've never heard of this before.
 
The OP is asking for barefooters opinions about whether to stay shoeless. Barefooters can see what the problem is by looking at the foot and assessing the diet, conformation rarely comes into the question, especially as this horse seems to have always been barefoot behind.
Being a barefoot advocate, I have yet to hear of any bare foot problem being cured or helped by nailing a shoe on.
 
Thanks Oberon.
As the horses weight bares down on the weak bottom portion of the hoof, the horn tubules are forced outwards causing the splay, the sensitive and insensitive laminae can begin to seperate causing at best pain and "footyness" and at worse necrotic tissue and infection.
Should you choose to use shoeing to correct the problem, you need a very skilled farrier as by now, the portion of the wall requiring nailing will be weak and thin.
I want to stress that I don't think the OP's horse is at this stage as I don't want to spook them. I am just answering Oberon's question.

Who I have just realised is the OP! Sorry!
 
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At the risk of disagreeing with one of the other posters (sorry, I don't know how to do the quote thing) conformation is absolutely a factor in many hoof capsule deviations, as are horses with bad backs and poor musculature. I have seen very many horses with poor feet directly related to the above who I have myself retrained and seen the hoof issues resolve.
 
So which would comes first, the chicken or the egg?
Is the conformation problem caused by wrongly trimmed feet, or are the feet becoming flat due to back problems?
From what I have learnt, back, joint and leg problems are caused by the wrong foot balance, because domesticated horses rely on us humans to correctly guess how their feet would wear if they had the opportunity to get the wear and tear as in the wild.
 
Monkers said:
At the risk of disagreeing with one of the other posters (sorry, I don't know how to do the quote thing) conformation is absolutely a factor in many hoof capsule deviations, as are horses with bad backs and poor musculature. I have seen very many horses with poor feet directly related to the above who I have myself retrained and seen the hoof issues resolve.
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Do the shoes help with the poor conformation, or do they need remedial shoes?
 
As I said before there are very many causes of hoof capsule imbalance/ deviation and every horse should be assessed holistically. You need to look at the weight/diet/conformation/limb locomotion as well as many other things, but I would suggest that as your horse is overweight and often standing in wet conditions then those could well be factors.
 
Monkers said:
I am just offering my opinion to the OP based on what I can see in her photos. It would be helpful to see pictures of the whole horse as body weight, conformation etc can have a massive impact on hoof capsule issues, which is an area often overlooked when debating hoof problems.
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Monkers your knowledge is much apprieciated and welcome :) This is the only recent Pic i have with no tack on ...
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Muff7 ... Haylage we have now was cut in June but it rained for a few days after it was cut so was baled wet. It is quite sticky, damp and heavy. Previously (when her feet were fine) she was on small baled haylage then when we moved to our current yard it was more dry haylage but still good.

Oberon - We dont have much grass, more weedy or marschy stuff. Im in NI to :)

Only_me - Her hinds are deffo not flakey, front ones the soles are a bit flakey but hinds are deffo not. Although the sole is dry.
 
Monkers said:
Thanks Oberon.
As the horses weight bares down on the weak bottom portion of the hoof, the horn tubules are forced outwards causing the splay, the sensitive and insensitive laminae can begin to seperate causing at best pain and "footyness" and at worse necrotic tissue and infection.
Should you choose to use shoeing to correct the problem, you need a very skilled farrier as by now, the portion of the wall requiring nailing will be weak and thin.
I want to stress that I don't think the OP's horse is at this stage as I don't want to spook them. I am just answering Oberon's question.

Who I have just realised is the OP! Sorry!
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Im the OP not Oberon :p But her questions are interesting as i never think to ask questions as such :o
 
muff747 said:
So which would comes first, the chicken or the egg?
Is the conformation problem caused by wrongly trimmed feet, or are the feet becoming flat due to back problems?
From what I have learnt, back, joint and leg problems are caused by the wrong foot balance, because domesticated horses rely on us humans to correctly guess how their feet would wear if they had the opportunity to get the wear and tear as in the wild.
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Hope I have done the quote thing right!!

I couldn't agree with you more. So many horses are in low grade pain from poor shoeing saddles and riders. Probably most of them. It is a fact though that most horse owners are not experts in every aspect of their care, and nor can we expect them to be. We should all have an army of expert instructors/ farriers/ trimmers etc to give support when needed. All too often by the time the horse is showing signs of discomfort, the problems are complex and ingrained.
I still have to stick by my opinion that basic conformation faults can very much be a factor, for example, a heavy topped horse born back at the knee and pidgeon chested will always need very careful foot care to prevent issues with the heel area of the foot. Likewise I have seen really terrible limb deviations present from birth that have directly lead to mediolateral imbalances in the hoof capsule
 
Oberon said:
Do the shoes help with the poor conformation, or do they need remedial shoes?
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In my opinion yes shoeing would help this horse. No, a remedial shoe would not be necessary but a broad web shoe could be helpful. This would help disperse the weight and give the horse more area to stand on.
 
NicoleS_007 said:
Muff7 ... Haylage we have now was cut in June but it rained for a few days after it was cut so was baled wet. It is quite sticky, damp and heavy. Previously (when her feet were fine) she was on small baled haylage then when we moved to our current yard it was more dry haylage but still good.
So the grass situation is not too bad but the new shoots that are coming thro everytime it rains will be loaded with sugar.
Your haylage however sounds very rich if it was cut in June. It will have been just when it was producing grass seeds and so all that energy would be trapped in the stalk. The rain wouldn't have made much difference, but if I were you, I would soak it until you can get hold of some which was cut late, after all the seeds had dropped and the goodness would have been receeding back into the roots ready to over winter, that's generally the best time for cutting hay or haylage which will be more suitable for barefoot horses or laminitics. Check out this web site for info on cutting grass for horses forage.
http://www.safergrass.org/ I love the picture on this site:D
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Thanks Nicole
You have a lovely horse! It is very difficult to give you a really thorough assessment from the pic, there could be a bit to say about her fronts too, but I would want to see much better pics on hard level ground.
Have you considered swapping the haylage for hay? She needs a high fibre low calorie diet. There is plenty of hay made this year that is very fiberous and very low in calories! Wonderful for fatties!
I think you answered your question yourself really. Her feet were a better shape before you switched haylage and gained weight.
 
muff747 said:
NicoleS_007 said:
Muff7 ... Haylage we have now was cut in June but it rained for a few days after it was cut so was baled wet. It is quite sticky, damp and heavy. Previously (when her feet were fine) she was on small baled haylage then when we moved to our current yard it was more dry haylage but still good.
So the grass situation is not too bad but the new shoots that are coming thro everytime it rains will be loaded with sugar.
Your haylage however sounds very rich if it was cut in June. It will have been just when it was producing grass seeds and so all that energy would be trapped in the stalk. The rain wouldn't have made much difference, but if I were you, I would soak it until you can get hold of some which was cut late, after all the seeds had dropped and the goodness would have been receeding back into the roots ready to over winter, that's generally the best time for cutting hay or haylage which will be more suitable for barefoot horses or laminitics. Check out this web site for info on cutting grass for horses forage.
http://www.safergrass.org/ I love the picture on this site:D
Click to expand...

Makes sense!! The grass was very rich and green looking before it was cut, I picked a handful one day and it made my mare foam at the mouth it must have tasted that good lol thankfully out turnout is not the same!! Our haylage is included in our livery and theres nowere to store anything so we will most likely be stuck with it for a while :( But we are moving soon due to no floodlights no winter turnout and new job so I will get her hay. And that is one interesting picture :p
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