muff747
Well-Known Member
Yes I agree with this too, except perhaps last years late cut hay would be even better
Barefooters opinions please - to stay barefoot or not? pics
- Thread starter NicoleS_007
- Start date
Yes I agree with this too, except perhaps last years late cut hay would be even better
spookypony
Well-Known Member
Agree re. the switch back to hay, but not re. the shoes. Frog looks rather good to me, and the white line/slight flare should sort itself out once the diet/weight issues are addressed. My sympathies, it can be very hard to skinnify a good doer.
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
Your horses feet are similar to mine. For ages I had a farrier trimming his feet the way he has been taught not the way my boy needs his done , his shape is misleading. I now have a ex barefoot trimmer who explained it all to me. He hacks out in old mac boots and is much happier since barefoot trimmer did her work.
NicoleS_007
Well-Known Member
Thanks, she is a wee sweety
She has been referred to as a 'Cut and shut' previously on here. Yes have considered hay but unfortunatly at current yard our haylage is included in price and we have no storage, but we need to move due to no winter turnout, no lights and new job so hay shall be a priority Heres a pic of her stood up 
Last edited:
missieh
Well-Known Member
Try a wire brush (from any DIY store) and use that daily around the outside. This will help with the stones. Plus, consider Red Horse field paste for when the ground gets wet. It's great stuff, like a putty that you cover the frog and sole of the foot with. Expensive, but lasts forever. Great feet on the whole though!!
Monkers
Well-Known Member
Lovely mare, hardly a cut and shut!
I really would advise you ditch the haylage. Why not invest in some high fibre chaff, dengie hi fi lite for example. Not really that expensive and if she is living out and you are moving soon, she should be fine on this with a good quality vit and min supplement. Her weight will drop off a bit, but that's a good thing.
re the post by Leviathan, I agree in principle with this. Many farriers do not know how to deal with this problem. Often the heels also collapse and underrun, and as a consequence they shoe the horse long and wide to give support. All that then happens is the hoof splays wider and wider at the bottom. The wall becomes thin, cracks and seperates from the sole. By this point it can be very difficult to shoe the horse remedially as there is nothing to nail into, and working for a period (or permenantly!) without shoes can be the answer. The problem is though if the hoof is far enough gone, then this doesn't work terribly well either due to cracking and infection. In bad cases this can be very, very difficult to correct, and maintaining a dry clean foot for many months is just as important as any remedial trimming/ farriery.
I really would advise you ditch the haylage. Why not invest in some high fibre chaff, dengie hi fi lite for example. Not really that expensive and if she is living out and you are moving soon, she should be fine on this with a good quality vit and min supplement. Her weight will drop off a bit, but that's a good thing.
re the post by Leviathan, I agree in principle with this. Many farriers do not know how to deal with this problem. Often the heels also collapse and underrun, and as a consequence they shoe the horse long and wide to give support. All that then happens is the hoof splays wider and wider at the bottom. The wall becomes thin, cracks and seperates from the sole. By this point it can be very difficult to shoe the horse remedially as there is nothing to nail into, and working for a period (or permenantly!) without shoes can be the answer. The problem is though if the hoof is far enough gone, then this doesn't work terribly well either due to cracking and infection. In bad cases this can be very, very difficult to correct, and maintaining a dry clean foot for many months is just as important as any remedial trimming/ farriery.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
A horse who is not footie does not need shoes unless the owner wants studs.
It looks to me like the problem you have is that your farrier is leaving your horse's hoof walls too long. This is allowing a trench to build up that stones can stick in. The frog looks perfect to me. Look at good frogs on uknhcp.myfastforum.com for other examples of nice healthy fat frogs. The fact that there is clearly a piece of sole around the frog wanting to crack away, and the depth of the collateral grooves, suggest that there is no real problem with lack of concavity, but you should definitely follow the diet advice that you have been given.
There appears to be a height of hoof wall all around this foot, which is loading it peripherally like a shoe. I think that the hoof wall height should be reduced by work or trimming, so that the horse is bearing weight on the ring of sole callous inside the hoof wall as well as the inner hoof wall, heels and sole callous and that will remove the trench that those stones are getting stuck in.
The tearing of the laminae and splaying of the foot referred to by Monkers above can only happen when the hoof wall is too long and not sharing the horse's weight across the sole heels and frog properly. Shoeing is not a good solution to that problem, it simply increases the peripheral loading but ties the hoof wall to a band of steel to stop it spreading. Getting the horse weightbearing across the sole callous is the solution, with a good diet to tighten the white line. It is the lack of quailty of the white line, which is the attachment of the hoof to the foot, that allows the two to separate.
I know what it's like when you are not used to barefoot. I used to dig out stones as if my life depended on it. I haven't even looked for one for years! Try not to worry about them too much, but if I have interpreted the photos correctly (and that can be very difficult) then you need to get your farrier to trim more, find a barefoot trimmer who knows how short a barefoot hoof should be, or take your horse out for a lovely long hack on a nice rough road to sort it out. After roadwork, you should be able to see wear marks across the heels, the back third of the frog and a ring of horn at the toe inside the white line. It looks to me unlikely that you will get a wear mark at the toe on this foot.
I agree, she's a lovely mare. What green eyed person called her a cut and shut? Bit of jealousy there maybe
Last edited:
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Monkers there is a school of thought to which I subscribe, which says that the horse knows best. The mediolateral imbalances produced by the horse in response to its conformation problems is, according to that school of thought, the best match that the horse can have for its badly loaded joints. The conclusion being that if you interfere with what the horse knows it needs and remove the mediolateral extensions to produce a more balanced looking foot, there will be strains on joints and soft tissue which may well then lame the horse.
Rockley Farm has a number of barefoot hunters with very significant mediolateral deviations. These horses were gifted to them because they were lame in shoes. Allowed to grow the foot they know that they need to balance their body issues, they are sound. See rockleyfarm.blogspot.com and search "extensions" for examples.
I am not talking here about hoof wall height differences due to imbalanced wear, those need periodic adjustment. I am talking about feet where the hoof wall height is regular but the feet are very visibly asymmetric and "apparently" unbalanced.
FionaM12
Well-Known Member
What does "cut and shut" mean please?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
When someone takes two wrecked cars, one with a crunched front and the other with a crunched rear, cuts off the crunched bits and welds the two good bits back together, it's known as a cut and shut.
For horses, it means someone is saying that the front and back end look like they come from two different horses. Which this mare doesn't, she's lovely!
FionaM12
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the explanation.
Perhaps the person who said that was joking about her markings being equally divided into two different colours? She really is lovely, I can't imagine why anyone would say anything derogatory about her.
Perhaps the person who said that was joking about her markings being equally divided into two different colours? She really is lovely, I can't imagine why anyone would say anything derogatory about her.
NicoleS_007
Well-Known Member
A horse who is not footie does not need shoes unless the owner wants studs.
It looks to me like the problem you have is that your farrier is leaving your horse's hoof walls too long. This is allowing a trench to build up that stones can stick in. The frog looks perfect to me. Look at good frogs on uknhcp.myfastforum.com for other examples of nice healthy fat frogs. The fact that there is clearly a piece of sole around the frog wanting to crack away, and the depth of the collateral grooves, suggest that there is no real problem with lack of concavity, but you should definitely follow the diet advice that you have been given.
There appears to be a height of hoof wall all around this foot, which is loading it peripherally like a shoe. I think that the hoof wall height should be reduced by work or trimming, so that the horse is bearing weight on the ring of sole callous inside the hoof wall as well as the inner hoof wall, heels and sole callous and that will remove the trench that those stones are getting stuck in.
The tearing of the laminae and splaying of the foot referred to by Monkers above can only happen when the hoof wall is too long and not sharing the horse's weight across the sole heels and frog properly. Shoeing is not a good solution to that problem, it simply increases the peripheral loading but ties the hoof wall to a band of steel to stop it spreading. Getting the horse weightbearing across the sole callous is the solution, with a good diet to tighten the white line. It is the lack of quailty of the white line, which is the attachment of the hoof to the foot, that allows the two to separate.
I know what it's like when you are not used to barefoot. I used to dig out stones as if my life depended on it. I haven't even looked for one for years! Try not to worry about them too much, but if I have interpreted the photos correctly (and that can be very difficult) then you need to get your farrier to trim more, find a barefoot trimmer who knows how short a barefoot hoof should be, or take your horse out for a lovely long hack on a nice rough road to sort it out. After roadwork, you should be able to see wear marks across the heels, the back third of the frog and a ring of horn at the toe inside the white line. It looks to me unlikely that you will get a wear mark at the toe on this foot.
I agree, she's a lovely mare. What green eyed person called her a cut and shut? Bit of jealousy there maybe
Thank you for your very informative response
... I was hopeing to keep her bare behind until next year or longer if shes not ready to event, but with never having a barefootie was rather worried about her feet. Il just add im not against either shoeing or barefoot, makes no difference to me I just want her to remain sound and happy We have changed farriers recently, he does a fab job with her fronts and gives the hinds a little trim but as you said may be better to get a barefooter out to see. And yes she does have as you said a loading of hoof around the foot (back half of hoof) like a shoe. Cant remember whom it was, I think there was a few who thought it 
But sure we all like different beasties NicoleS_007
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the explanation.
Perhaps the person who said that was joking about her markings being equally divided into two different colours? She really is lovely, I can't imagine why anyone would say anything derogatory about her.
Nope as far as i can remember they said her front end was out of proportion to her rear end hence the cut and shut remark. It was on a thread ages ago when I first purchased her asking peoples opinions on her
littlescallywag
Well-Known Member
Her toes look long, I'd get a barefoot trimmer out as they know more about the workings of barefeet than a farrier does. Try uknhcp.
Her frogs look fine to me and I'd look into her diet aswell as that can affect the white line. Going to look into that artimud for my boy as he has white line probs aswell
Her frogs look fine to me and I'd look into her diet aswell as that can affect the white line. Going to look into that artimud for my boy as he has white line probs aswell
brucea
Well-Known Member
brucea
Well-Known Member
Nope as far as i can remember they said her front end was out of proportion to her rear end hence the cut and shut remark. It was on a thread ages ago when I first purchased her asking peoples opinions on her
And I'd pay about as much attention to that as you should to everythign else on here. No one can really do a conformation evaluation from photos without seeing the horse from all angles, and seeing it move. Phrases like "cut and shut" are just nonsense trotted out.
Your hoof photos show some interesting asymmetry - a trimmer should be able to discuss this with you.
But diet - that will help in about 2-4 months.
Pity to spend an extra £34 shoeing back feet that are perfectly functional, but just need a bit of dietary assistance.
NicoleS_007
Well-Known Member
Thanks brucea. I never really thought of the shoes hiding it, my thinking was more on the line of that stones wouldnt get stuck so risk of lameness reduced and they would go back to normal, but as alot of people have said only a diet change will put it right which i was unaware of. Iv never had a barefooter before so its new teritory 
She is very slightly toed out all round aswell, barely noticable infront now but is more noticable behind due to the asymmstry of them. Hinds previously had a 'wing' (as my farrier called it) to the outside, was easily fixed but as they unevenly wear the outside still grows in that outward direction. Will look into barefoot trimmers as I dont know of any around here, were in NI.
She is very slightly toed out all round aswell, barely noticable infront now but is more noticable behind due to the asymmstry of them. Hinds previously had a 'wing' (as my farrier called it) to the outside, was easily fixed but as they unevenly wear the outside still grows in that outward direction. Will look into barefoot trimmers as I dont know of any around here, were in NI.
Oberon
Well-Known Member
Thanks brucea. I never really thought of the shoes hiding it, my thinking was more on the line of that stones wouldnt get stuck so risk of lameness reduced and they would go back to normal, but as alot of people have said only a diet change will put it right which i was unaware of. Iv never had a barefooter before so its new teritory
I would be wary of 'fixing' any uneven wear to hooves. If it's naturally supposed to be that way to support the limb, then 'fixing' it to make the hoof look pretty does nothing but transfer the problem up the limb.
OneInAMillion
Well-Known Member
She looks like she has got very neat feet and to be honest I wouldn't rush to put shoes back on just make sure you pick out feet as often as possible.
NicoleS_007
Well-Known Member
It would probably have been described as flared to the outside. So the angle of the foot was the same as now but at the bottom there was like a wing of flare to the outside. She hadnt been shod or trimmed in what looked like a while, so they were all quite long especially the fronts. Because the fronts were so long she did look quite toed out but now there normal its not so noticable if that makes sense?! Havent got any previous pictures of her feet except the fronts so we unfortunatly cant compare.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Thanks brucea. I never really thought of the shoes hiding it, my thinking was more on the line of that stones wouldnt get stuck so risk of lameness reduced and they would go back to normal, but as alot of people have said only a diet change will put it right which i was unaware of. Iv never had a barefooter before so its new teritory
Nicole the picture of the bottom of the foot does not look like it wears unevenly - if that is what is happening then one of her hoof walls will be higher above the level of the sole than the other. If so, that can safely be adjusted.
If not, then that "wing" is what your horse is producing to balance up some lack of "perfection" in her way of going, and if that is removed by rasping it off, it will no longer do that, and there will be a risk of her putting pressure on joints higher up in her leg. Some (most?) farriers do love to see symmetry, but I think you need an experienced trimmer of working barefoot horses (who can also be a farrier, but is not your current one by the looks of it) to tell you whether this "wing" is needed or should be removed.
If the wing is allowed to stay, then judging by a wing my own hunter produces, the more schooling you do to get your mare supple and even-sided, the smaller the wing will get. When I lay my hunter off for the summer, his grows again, and then reduces when back in work.
By the way, slightly toe out is normal hind limb conformation for many, perhaps most, horses.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Just wondering if anyone could recommend a good barefoot trimmer in NI for NicoleS_007 to use if she wants a second opinion. (I believe there is a dodgy one to be avoided...).
Re the eventing, there are horses doing that barefoot if that is of interest.
Re the eventing, there are horses doing that barefoot if that is of interest.
brucea
Well-Known Member
^^
What Oberon and CPTrayes said
Any asymmetry in the hoof is the result of what's above it - and the load path not being through the middle of the foot. My oen boy, on his hind has asymmetry much as you describe, result of spavin and a slight conformational defect
Don't worry about it - but try to get the diet right to address the separation.
muff747
Well-Known Member
I always wonder which comes first, is it the spavin causes the horse to avoid loading that side or was it as a result of poor hoof balance? How do we know which came first?