Barefooters- pointers/ ideas

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watchthis

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Not looking to open a can of worms. just looking for some advice/ help. Any suggestions/ pointers would be fab! :)

Took shoes off horse at the end of June last year. Have taken pics every few months since then. The pics below are from start/ mid January (this year).

So what do we think? I'm having a worry about the front feet so just added them.

Front left:
fl2.jpg

fl1.jpg

fl3.jpg

fl4a.jpg


Front right:
fr1.jpg

fr2.jpg

fr3.jpg

fr4.jpg


Pics aren't fab- dull day :(
 
I'm confused about when these pics are from?

Long, separated wall. Deep sulcus. Contracted heels. Diseased frog.

Interesting to see the long bars. They've grown to support the diseased frog and weak heels.
 
Sorry, the pics are from this month. Should be a bit clearer :o. A lot better than they were.

Thanks for reply :), any suggestion to help improve them?
 
Readigrass, alfa A oil (hoping to sawp this when bag finishes), speedibeet, touch of soaked grass cubes and small amount of topspec cubes.

Farriers formula, biotin for feet alongside a joint supplement.
 
First thing to do is treat those frogs. If you get the sulcus clean I suspect you will find the heels will spread out.

Use a syringe squirt salt water in to clean.

There are many treatments out there. I like Red Horse products but in the mean time, slips of gauze/rag marinated in Sudocrem and stuffed into the slit with a hoofpick will do for now.

You can also soak the hooves in a diluted Cider Vinegar mixture for ten minutes for the frogs and smother in Sudocrem.

Movement is important too - as long as the horse is comfy.

The trim job looks OK for the hoof you have.

The hoof wall is still flaring away from the coffin bone. The horse won't be able to land on his heels when the back of the hoof is in that condition, so he'll still be landing on his toes all the time....so you'll never be able to grow in a good wall connection (like the first 1 1/2 inches from the coronet band is trying to show you) until the horse starts moving correctly heel first.

You are feeding lots of different things.

The horse gets almost everything they need from grass/hay/haylage, sunlight and their own internal bacterial and enzymatic synthesis.

For a healthy horse, all they will need additionally is;

Minerals that may be missing/unbalanced from the forage.
Omega oils in winter (linseed will do this)
Yeast to aid digestion.

You need to bear in mind the sugar and starch levels in everything you feed - as this will also weaken a hoof wall connection.
 
Thank you, lots to think about and do there. :)

Will crack on with the thrush treatment as of tomorrow. Was looking online for treatments for thrush when it was first mentioned so may try get a hold of something to help. So far *touches wood* he's happy enough to work, mainly struggles with stones.

I'll have a look over his feeding, had some trouble keeping weight on him last year and he can be fussy when the mood takes him too- so new feeds can be interesting. Just need to find a happy medium to keep weight, that he'll eat and will help his feet lol.:o
 
watchthis said:
Thank you, lots to think about and do there. :)

Will crack on with the thrush treatment as of tomorrow. Was looking online for treatments for thrush when it was first mentioned so may try get a hold of something to help. So far *touches wood* he's happy enough to work, mainly struggles with stones.

I'll have a look over his feeding, had some trouble keeping weight on him last year and he can be fussy when the mood takes him too- so new feeds can be interesting. Just need to find a happy medium to keep weight, that he'll eat and will help his feet lol.:o
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For weight - fibre, fibre, fibre. Horses get most of their calories from fermenting fibre. 'Conditioning feeds' that work on grain are a waste of time.

Add lib forage with Fast fibre, unmolassed beet, micronised linseed and a good mineral supplement (I successfully keep weight on my 25 year old with dodgy teeth with this) and if needed - soya oil (and additional vitamin E).

I've heard Ready Mash Solution is worth a try at the moment.

I like Red Horse's Field Paste and ArtiMud....but you may need to use their Hoof Stuff for that sulcus as it's so deep....I couldn't work with it though, so I used Sudocrem rags.
 
I'd want to see your horse in the flesh before commenting too much on his feet. It is unusual for front feet still to be that shape after more than six months of new hoof, and his frogs are still atrophied and not touching the floor. For the shape, you have already had the diet advice. For the frogs, they will need more stimulation, because it looks from the photos as if you cannot take height off the heel to bring them into wear. Do you have access to an arena which will work his frogs?
 
Oberon said:
For weight - fibre, fibre, fibre. Horses get most of their calories from fermenting fibre. 'Conditioning feeds' that work on grain are a waste of time.

Add lib forage with Fast fibre, unmolassed beet, micronised linseed and a good mineral supplement (I successfully keep weight on my 25 year old with dodgy teeth with this) and if needed - soya oil (and additional vitamin E).

I've heard Ready Mash Solution is worth a try at the moment.

I like Red Horse's Field Paste and ArtiMud....but you may need to use their Hoof Stuff for that sulcus as it's so deep....I couldn't work with it though, so I used Sudocrem rags.
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Oberon - I do EVERYTHING that you recommend. My horse is on the exact diet as above (without the unmolassed beet) with Pro Hoof. I use field paste on her feet. Our grazing at the moment is crap too. But she is STILL footsore! Why can't I get it right?!?!? She has a UKNCHP trimmer too. The vet now thinks she has either a bruised sole or an abscess!
(I tried the Solutions Mash the other day - she won't touch the stuff!) - another £13 down the drain!!
 
Oberon said:
The trim job looks OK for the hoof you have.

.
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You have to be kidding right? It has far to much hoof and all in the wrong places, whoever trimmed that as no eye for symmetry or foot shape there looks like a stack of foot to come off it at the toe and the heel. There is also a worrying split (fissure) in picture 5
 
A Guilding said:
You have to be kidding right? It has far to much hoof and all in the wrong places, whoever trimmed that as no eye for symmetry or foot shape there looks like a stack of foot to come off it at the toe and the heel. There is also a worrying split (fissure) in picture 5
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No I'm not kidding.

You can't cut symmetry into a hoof - it needs to come FROM the horse.

There is too much heel - but there is also a weak digital cushion and a diseased frog which those heels are currently protecting. You can see that from the bars.

If you cut the heels down you will force the horse to walk on that diseased frog and it will go on it's toes even more to avoid discomfort - and carry on causing the flare....and the cycle continues.

The toes ARE long....but they have followed the sole plane and tried to provide a roll for breakover to relieve leverage on that flare.

The frog needs to be treated before any changes to the hoof can be done.

Yes there ARE faults - the walls have been heavily rasped and the horse's frogs and diet should really have been mentioned to the owner by now.

But to crack on someone's trimming on a public forum from a couple of pictures and without knowing the horse, is highly unprofessional and discourteous IMO.
 
Holly Hocks said:
Oberon - I do EVERYTHING that you recommend. My horse is on the exact diet as above (without the unmolassed beet) with Pro Hoof. I use field paste on her feet. Our grazing at the moment is crap too. But she is STILL footsore! Why can't I get it right?!?!? She has a UKNCHP trimmer too. The vet now thinks she has either a bruised sole or an abscess!
(I tried the Solutions Mash the other day - she won't touch the stuff!) - another £13 down the drain!!
Click to expand...

Can I just add, my boy was footy for years in varying degrees until the last six months since I cut out alfalfa, I think that was the key for my boy. His feet have improved and his heels have widened more. They are the best they have ever been since he was de-shod six years ago. Still not perfect but much better. The other change was I moved him to a yard on higher ground, so may depend on the quality and variety of the tiny amount of grass she is getting?
 
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Thanks for replies, more feedback than I thought I'd get :).

His heels have come down a bit since the shoes come off, I agree they could come down more but I also worry about under run heels & everything else. *paranoid*

The sudocream rags sound like a good idea tbh.

The slight crack in pic 5 appeared after an icy day where the ground was frozen solid. Hasn't got any bigger/ longer.
 
Oberon said:
No I'm not kidding.

You can't cut symmetry into a hoof - it needs to come FROM the horse.

There is too much heel - but there is also a weak digital cushion and a diseased frog which those heels are currently protecting. You can see that from the bars.

If you cut the heels down you will force the horse to walk on that diseased frog and it will go on it's toes even more to avoid discomfort - and carry on causing the flare....and the cycle continues.

The toes ARE long....but they have followed the sole plane and tried to provide a roll for breakover to relieve leverage on that flare.

The frog needs to be treated before any changes to the hoof can be done.

Yes there ARE faults - the walls have been heavily rasped and the horse's frogs and diet should really have been mentioned to the owner by now.

But to crack on someone's trimming on a public forum from a couple of pictures and without knowing the horse, is highly unprofessional and discourteous IMO.
Click to expand...


I wish there was a 'like' button.
I know it's not all brilliant but I'm here asking for help to help his feet.
 
Holly Hocks said:
Oberon - I do EVERYTHING that you recommend. My horse is on the exact diet as above (without the unmolassed beet) with Pro Hoof. I use field paste on her feet. Our grazing at the moment is crap too. But she is STILL footsore! Why can't I get it right?!?!? She has a UKNCHP trimmer too. The vet now thinks she has either a bruised sole or an abscess!
(I tried the Solutions Mash the other day - she won't touch the stuff!) - another £13 down the drain!!
Click to expand...

If your water and/or grazing is overloaded with iron and/or manganese you can still have a footie horse. If your horse is any one of EMS/EPSM/insulin resistant/Cushings/fat (be honest!) you can still have a footie horse. If you want to stay barefoot you need to be looking into those possible causes of footiness.
 
Oberon said:
No I'm not kidding.

You can't cut symmetry into a hoof - it needs to come FROM the horse.

There is too much heel - but there is also a weak digital cushion and a diseased frog which those heels are currently protecting. You can see that from the bars.

If you cut the heels down you will force the horse to walk on that diseased frog and it will go on it's toes even more to avoid discomfort - and carry on causing the flare....and the cycle continues.

The toes ARE long....but they have followed the sole plane and tried to provide a roll for breakover to relieve leverage on that flare.

The frog needs to be treated before any changes to the hoof can be done.

Yes there ARE faults - the walls have been heavily rasped and the horse's frogs and diet should really have been mentioned to the owner by now.

But to crack on someone's trimming on a public forum from a couple of pictures and without knowing the horse, is highly unprofessional and discourteous IMO.
Click to expand...

Discourteous unprofessional or not you and I both know whatever the circumstances of that horse are it hasn't trimmed enough or right. it has enough independent movement in those heels to warrant a different post code. Address that and the frog will improve. where that toe is to long its breaking over to the lateral toe, the lateral heel quarter is flared, and the medial heel is being dragged upwards as a result. adress that and p3 will reorintate in the capsule and the diseased frog will fix. And the beuty is it has the foot to do it.
 
A Guilding said:
Discourteous unprofessional or not you and I both know whatever the circumstances of that horse are it hasn't trimmed enough or right. it has enough independent movement in those heels to warrant a different post code. Address that and the frog will improve. where that toe is to long its breaking over to the lateral toe, the lateral heel quarter is flared, and the medial heel is being dragged upwards as a result. adress that and p3 will reorintate in the capsule and the diseased frog will fix. And the beuty is it has the foot to do it.
Click to expand...

I do not believe that such precise judgements can be made from two dimensional photos of the foot only, which are often enormously deceptive to the point of bearing little relationship to the live animal, and without seeing the rest of the horse and what is in the legs and body above it, including metabolic issues, that may be causing hoof deviations.
 
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cptrayes said:
I do not believe that such precise judgements can be made from two dimensional photos of the foot only, which are often enormously deceptive to the point of bearing little relationship to the live animal, and without seeing the rest of the horse and what is in the legs and body above it, including metabolic issues, that may be causing hoof deviations.
Click to expand...

Try me
 
A Guilding said:
Discourteous unprofessional or not you and I both know whatever the circumstances of that horse are it hasn't trimmed enough or right. it has enough independent movement in those heels to warrant a different post code. Address that and the frog will improve. where that toe is to long its breaking over to the lateral toe, the lateral heel quarter is flared, and the medial heel is being dragged upwards as a result. adress that and p3 will reorintate in the capsule and the diseased frog will fix. And the beuty is it has the foot to do it.
Click to expand...

Love the 'post code' bit:)

I am working on the theory of fixing the frog and diet first, then the horse will be comfortable to work and the rest of the hoof will follow - trimming or not;)
 
Oberon said:
Love the 'post code' bit:)

I am working on the theory of fixing the frog and diet first, then the horse will be comfortable to work and the rest of the hoof will follow - trimming or not;)
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All the problems in that foot are linked, and yes the biomech considerations from above will at least stand a chance to improve. I'm not the enemy, I want what you want that is the horse to function as well as possible.
 
A Guilding said:
All the problems in that foot are linked, and yes the biomech considerations from above will at least stand a chance to improve. I'm not the enemy, I want what you want that is the horse to function as well as possible.
Click to expand...

How do you know what the biomechanic considerations are if you have not even seen whether the horse has straight legs above those feet? Or injuries, or arthritis in joints? Or a crest twice the size of a stallion's? Or a curly coat?

If you want the horse to function well you have to see the whole horse, not just its foot.
 
cptrayes said:
How do you know what the biomechanic considerations are if you have not even seen whether the horse has straight legs above those feet? Or injuries, arthritis in joint. Or a crest twice the size of a stallion's? Or a curly coat?

If you want the horse to function well you have to see the whole horse, not just its foot.
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The hoof is a mirror image of the forces placed on it, work out what they are and the hoof tells a story. Of course it is desirable to have the horse there but when the imbalance is as obvious as in the pics and you have seen it often enough then it isnt hard.
 
Another vote for frog treatment but I think diet is very important here op. I'm thinking sugars especially, in grass or other forage I'm afraid. It might be worth reducing grass intake and feeding soaked hay.

In my experience hooves that tend to run forward respond very well to reducing sugars as much as possible. The trim is much less important than getting diet right imo.

I'd keep to surfaces where he is comfortable. Good luck. :)
 
A Guilding said:
All the problems in that foot are linked, and yes the biomech considerations from above will at least stand a chance to improve. I'm not the enemy, I want what you want that is the horse to function as well as possible.
Click to expand...

Not the enemy at all - there's always something for us all to learn from each other:)

I'm just rather cautious to recommend any trimming changes to a thrushy foot until it's dealt with (unless it's an acute lami attack) on a forum.

You are braver than I
lol.gif
 
Oberon said:
Not the enemy at all - there's always something for us all to learn from each other:)

I'm just rather cautious to recommend any trimming changes to a thrushy foot until it's dealt with (unless it's an acute lami attack) on a forum.

You are braver than I
lol.gif
Click to expand...

The healthiest frogs are attached to the well balanced feet. If you want a hoof balance check, look at the frogs. For me it is the reason to change the trim.
 
A Guilding said:
The hoof is a mirror image of the forces placed on it, work out what they are and the hoof tells a story. Of course it is desirable to have the horse there but when the imbalance is as obvious as in the pics and you have seen it often enough then it isnt hard.
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You don't know what caused the imbalance because you have not seen the horse move, or even stand still in a picture. Yet your first response is to tell the owner in no uncertain terms how to "correct" it and that her trimmer/farrier, who sees the horse regularly is doing a bad job.

What if that imbalance has been put there by the horse to alleviate pain caused in another part of its body? This horse is sound. Would you impose your idea of symmetry on it and risk that soundness?

What if these feet are an enormous improvement from what they looked like in June? Would you interfere then and jeopardise the progress that has been made?

It sounds very much to me as if you have a model in your head of a perfect foot, and that you work towards putting that foot on the end of each horse's leg. I hope I'm wrong but your absolute certainty of tone when you've seen only a couple of pictures of the horse's feet is disturbing.
 
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