"barely out of draw reins" comment in "Eventing" - question pls.

kerilli

kerilli

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Okay, in this month's Eventing mag there's an interview with Mark Todd, and the journalist says, regarding him riding NZB Grass Valley round Badminton this year, "Could another jockey have finished 18th at one of the world's most challenging four-stars on a horse who was barely out of draw reins, having just one CCI*** completion on his card."
Right, bear with me please...
If I understand this right (and I'm no fan of draw reins, I think they're overused and that a lot of people don't use their legs and seat enough when using them, and have the reins too tight, pulling the nose in rather than guarding from hollowing) then the writer, Julie Harding, is saying that horses coming up the grades are ridden routinely in draw-reins etc etc.
So, am I crazy to avoid them? Do most people use them regularly? I've been told a LOT of top riders do, but it's all anecdotal so I don't rely on it!
e.g. I have a mare at the moment, a nice sweet 5 yr old, whose natural way of going is rather strung out and poky-nosed. I do not claim to be the best dressage rider in the world so getting her to go correctly in an outline is going to be a long slow process. (I'm not in a hurry with her, she's big and gangly and will take a lot of time to mature and learn to balance herself etc anyway.)
Would YOU, say, put her in draw reins to "show her the way"?
Am I basically being stupid being such a purist and taking my time, and letting the whole 'nicely arched neck and head in the right place' thing be the last piece of the jigsaw to fall in place. (Of course, my trainer probably won't speak to me again if I ever admitted to using them...!)
No criticism here of anyone who does use them, just genuinely interested to hear what everyone thinks. Thankyou.
 
No. Frodo can also be tricky in the contact (he is also 5) but using draw reins would never cross my mind. What for? What happens when you take them off? Back to square one?
For a start my trainer, like yours, would immediately show me the door if I ever mentioned the 'd' word!
 
I livery on a pro SJ'ers yard - never really see draw reins about much, but a lot of use of the bungies - which FWIW I have used for years....IMHO they 'show' the way with a bit of hinting, but its not so forceful as Draw Reins....

However, the 6 YO I have at the moment finds it all too easy to curl up, so I have the reverse problem!!

I noticed the comment too - and thought it was a bit out of place..


JB x
 
I have used them on my mare - I wouldn't use them as a standard peice of kit.

My reasoning for using them on Holz is as follows - She is VERY capeable of working well, shes also very capeable of evading by stuffing her ears somewhere up your nose, then exiting at high speed. Shes then VERY difficult to get back to earth.

If you can stop the ears finding your nose, you can resettle her and off you go.

Shes done it to me, my instructor and several very good riders/eventers over the years. With the draw reins, I managed to break the cycle and teach her to work through whatever was making her stuff her ears skywards.

Its made us both happier, BUT she was already capeable of work, and wasn't being 'hauled into an outline' as when working the draw reins would be loose - my instructor regualary commeneted on how loose they were.

I don't believe they are needed for all horses, nor do I believe all riders should use them. On the other side, if you have particular problems, they can be a very useful tool - I prefer to see well used draw reins than a badly used, always tight, Market Harborough.
 
FWIW, I think you're doing the right thing with your horse. My trainer (ex international eventer who has competed to PSG) tells me to concentrate on the back 2/3 of the horse & not get obsessed with the front 1/3... If you get too obsessed with 'looking pretty' at an early stage, you can stop the power coming through from behind.

I've used draw reins...to teach a spectacularly thick Hannovarian that he really *could* do a canter trans without chucking his head up. It took about 4 mornings & the penny dropped, so I stopped using them.

Just my 'average rider' opinion...
 
No, I don't really use them other than galloping Wings, as he can throw his head up and p*ss off with me, so they give me a bit of control over how much he can fling his head. Have used them on Monica a couple of times, as she too can fling her head a little, but I tend to ride with them for about 10 mins and then take them off. Too many people I know ride solely with draw reins (as in use them as reins, rather than having normal reins and them together), and wonder why when they take them off, their horse either leans on their hands, flings their head about due to depending on the draw reins, or having their chins pinned to their chests!!! (mini rant over :D )

Forgot to mention the fact that both of my two understand how to take the contact and work through their backs, so they aren't use for teaching them anything, rather just preventing me having ears shoved up my nose when horses get excited :D
 
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no, I'm with you - never use them and would prefer to work through a schooling issue slowly and thoroughly rather than stick on draw reins. I do remember having a jumping lesson a long time ago on my green 5 yr old mare who had a habit of jumping the fence and then sticking her head up vertically and tanking away after. The instructor, John Bowen (who I'm sure now trains a European 3 day event team?) used a long stretchy tail bandage in a draw rein styley and got me to jump using that. It did seem to work at the time but have never used it again since, just would prefer to take more time getting the basics right!
 
we tend to use them on occasions when hacking young stallions out in company as an extra if needed, and i also used them briefly on an opinionated 5 yr old who thought it was fun to stick her head in the air and take off in canter transitions. a week in draw reins cured the habit and it never re surfaced. i personally would never dismiss them as the devils work, but like any schooling aid, bit, gadget etc, they are as effective ( or not) as the rider using them
 
I own the most beautiful pair of leather draw reins. I've had them (they were a gift) for about 20 years. I have used them on one horse, at the suggestion of (as it happens a NZ event rider lol:)) a particular trainer, although I did warn him the horse in question would not go well in them. He took them off again after a few minutes :D

I do in fact use a bungee sometimes, but I feel it is doing nothing (which is great) when the horse is going properly, rather than putting the horse into a place like draw reins/MH etc do.

So no, in answer to your question, I do not and would not use draw reins as standard and I think you are right not to on your mare:)
 
I have used draw reins before, when I worked for Bar all of her horses were ridden in draw reins but used "correctly" ie we had to ride them long and low and get them stretching down over the back first before we were allowed to pick them up into a contact. Our horses used to be forward and round and not at all pinned in, in fact the draw reins would be hanging down between their legs most of the time.

However, now I am having classical dressage lessons I have learnt a much better way of riding and now know how to get a horse working properly in self carriage without the use of any gadgets.
I have used draw reins on Axel a few times but when I ride him in them I don't have any "feel" at all he just seems fixed and I can't tell if I need to make any adjustments with my seat etc

I personally would try them though and see what you think.
 
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I think it depends on the horse and the issue. They have to have a true contact IMO before you can use them as you are just creating long term problems. I think they are fine if you have issues once the contact has been established and need to guide the horse in a certain direction. I watched Robert Whitaker school and the horse was soft and going beautifully yet it still had draw reins on though loose. I have seen Lucy W use them warming up for BS. The horse looked pretty well mannered to me and going very nicely and not a draw rein needer. They must do something or else sjers would not use them consistently for horses of all grades. I am baffled by draw reins and would love to see someone do conclusive tests on horses and see the results.
 
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SusieT said:
No-you're overthinking it-what it probably/possibly means is it's a barely into the 'getting' the dressage stage.
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Really?
The thing is, the first time I read it, I was really angry, I thought "is that really what she thinks?!"
Maybe I am over-thinking it, but, but... argh, maybe the horse wouldn't do a great secure wonderful top-3-after-dressage test YET, but wtf does that have to do with draw reins? Seriously?
I am obviously missing something here...
 
Tbh, no matter what the pro's decide to do, I think I'll stick with what I've been taught for the last few years- the horse will find a natural contact in it's own time, and if it's hasn't found the contact then something's still not right.

Perhaps in a pro's hands they can use them to encourage this, I don't know. However I don't believe that I could, and tbh if my horse hasn't found the contact it's normally my fault. I've also seen them badly used by local 'pro's' which has put me right off the idea of them (dressage and a local show producer (who jumps her horses in them))- they're terribly easy to abuse.
 
alesea said:
they're terribly easy to abuse.
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Yes, this is my big problem with them.
And I know that if I've got them on her, and the mare's going like a strung-out giraffey thing, I'll want to reel her in, and I guess I hope I know better... or, I'm just not strong enough in my seat and legs to use them properly.

Interesting answers, thankyou all. I agree, a lot of top riders use them, and get great results with their horses, and they must be using them for good reasons... hmmm.
 
i think that they can be a useful bit of kit but certainly wouldn't use them on every horse and for a long period of time. V is being a bit of a devil child at the minute- leaping and spooking for england (but only at home, never anywhere else :rolleyes:) and trainer has suggested that draw reins will help me to control him and actually get some work out of him- should only take a session or two to break a bad habit... so its more for a control thing rather than to force his head into an outline- he goes into a nice outline anyway so don't need them for that...
 
I would say no, as you have said you have the time, the knowledge and there is no rush.

You certainly have the experience to use them properly, unfortunately others don't, D_K and I have spent so much time on 2 of our horses trying to undo the damage that has been caused by draw reins by previous riders.

Saying that we have used them (well a lunge line and a bit of DIY) on an experienced mare who knew what we were asking, but had her 'I know best ' head on, within a few minutes she realised the error of her ways and they haven't seen the light of day since:)
 
yes, diggerbez, i use them for that sort of horse, when Katy is getting fit she's only safe to hack out for fast work in draw reins, otherwise we have wild sideways moments and she ends up rather unsteerable and uncontrollable in her excitement... the draw reins, loose, just seem to 'channel her mind' kind of thing and then i can shove her straight with my legs. without them, legs have no effect on straightening...
i tend to think that this is the only way i'm happy to use them, but now i'm wondering if i'm missing out, or my horses are, and i'm avoiding a perfectly legitimate way of making things a lot clearer to a rather clueless horse!
 
when i did a clinic with mark todd last year there was a rather badly behaved chestnut there that he got on and he said he's put it in draw reins- i think the idea was to get it to 'focus' rather than strap its head down- i know my sj trainer uses them a fair bit, but again, to focus sharp ones rather than achieve an outline- maybe this is where people misinterpret what they are for? (but i do agree that lots of people, pros included, use them as a shortcut- i do think that eventually it shows if you move up the levels, if you stay at prelim maybe not...but if you move up it must cause probs)
 
I used to work for an international showjumper. That was the first time I had ever enountered draw reins. One Horse was ridden in them all the time, and then some of them were ridden in them now and again. Some not at all.
From what I heard from his (very experienced ie well over 10 years) groom, he was quite the exception, as in most showjumpers used them a lot more. But, even their feeding was apprently unusual (thought not to me) as they got lots of hay and actually quite little hard feed. He was sponsored by Baileys and they all got 2 feeds a day and there wasn't a huge amount in them. They all got out daily in the field and on the walker as well. I have to say that they were all happy and looked great for Horses that pretty much lived in - something I don't agree with (but that's just me!).
I had the real benefit of having a few flatwork lessons there from a lady (I forget her name, I think it was Jane?) who had trained some serious dressage peeps including Jennie Laurison-Clark and also helped some big SJ names. She always had me in a loose cavesson noseband, a plain snaffle and no draw reins. I personally found the draw reins useless. If anything the Horses leaned on them. My favourite Horse (who was sold as SJ didn't like him and actually he was no good at jumping but awesome at flatwork) I found lovely and light in the hand yet SJ found him heavy and strong. But, he was very much a hand to leg rider and all the Horses went lovely for him!! It was just this one that liked a light touch!!
The only time I liked having them on was hacking anything that had a tendancy to being slightly mad!!
My own Horse has been ridden in them years ago (not by me) and why anyone would is beyond me. He's can be very very strong and he would lean on them. The one time I've used them successfully was on an ex trotter racer (I used to do a lot of driving). I used them maybe 3 or 4 times on hacks just to give her the idea that her head didn't need to be up in the air.
Personally I think they are over used. They are fine for giving the Horse an idea of what you want in head carriage or if you need to hack a 'nutter' and have more control. But, they shouldn't be used more than now and again. IMHO though!!
 
personally dont use them with current horses.have done in the past on SJ'ers and one dressage horse for 2 days to get the message though that buggering off like a mad thing was not acceptable.

know of one UK yard that rides all their horses from 4yo to GP in some form of gadget every day, and have seen it a lot in germany and holland when on horse shopping trips.big names too. would not say all horses were held in with them, some were, some wernt, but on some yards they are def a standard piece of kit.
 
ah, okay, yes, to 'focus', i totally get that.
Right... with my mare, she's focussed (okay, looks about a bit but not a loony and not naughty), she's relaxed and getting a nice rhythm and learning to stay in front of the leg, swinging along happily... with her nose stuck out in the next county (for now) but on a nice elastic but light/firm even contact. So, 90% there, really, imho, for how much she's done.
IF i used draw reins on her, her nose wouldn't be stuck out in the next county, and her neck muscles at least would be working more correctly I guess/hope.
BUT the nice, honest, just-normal-reins contact would be compromised, wouldn't it?
Really trying to get my head around this.
What am I missing? I don't want a short-cut, I want to know what I'm not getting! Would they help her to understand what I'm asking, or compromise everything long-term?
 
To my mind a horse uses its neck to balance, a youngster with a rider on its back has to learn to rebalance, putting draw reins on, only restrict the teaching in the way a horse learns and balances itself by compromising somewhere else, usually by hollowing and trailing their backends. Most young horses (unless you are truly lucky with a horse built on the bit) will put there head up to canter as they have to not only pick the weight of the rider up but their shoulders to, once they learn to carry the rider happily and forward it all slots into place.

You never see horses canter round fields, sticking their heads in the air to go from trot to canter it is a fluid movement.

I much prefer to see a youngster working correctly from behind, in rhythm, carrying there rider, with loose and elastic paces, than one that has had draw reins on that is so used to going with its head in, hollow and trailing their hocks. Also draw reins can give you a very false outline in a tense horse making them bend at C3 rather than flex at the poll.

Maybe in a large yard, where you have to produce horses quickly to stay in the ranks but not for me Im afraid.
 
I am sure that draw reins are used by a lot of pros... particularly with young horses.

I personally use them on occasion, but only when needed (every few months etc). I think they should be used to guide the horse into an outline, encourage them to lower and round rather than as a submissive tool which will clearly, in the long term, produce a false outline. But i do think they are an effective tool when used correctly in moderation.
 
Seth, i lunge her in a long & low device (draw reins between front legs & over back) & she sort-of gets the idea, ish.
Crazymare, we've had a few lightbulb moments in walk & trot, but seldom. I don't think she gets it.
Scally, yes, precisely what i've always thought, perfectly put, thankyou.
I probably should have mentioned that she has a slightly unstable atlas-axis (& in my experience horses with pain there can't give at the poll & soften) being routinely checked, & that she damaged her neck muscles on 1 side when panicking & tripping over her half-on rug, i think i should definitely stick to patience & let her stick her neck out if that's comfier for now.
Thankyou for all replies.
 
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LEC said:
They must do something or else sjers would not use them consistently for horses of all grades.
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Don't bet on it - I know quite a few top level (winning) sj'ers who put them on every horse, every time, like some people put on martingales or boots all 'round. This is especially true of people who ride a lot of horses during the day, particularly at horse shows. I think the feeling - rightly or wrongly - often is they're there "if needed" and save wear and tear on the rider.

But I wouldn't rule out the reason being "just because" it's what they've always done.

As to the comment, I haven't read it . . . was the intimation that it was Mark's words? He did an article (I think for H&H) years ago where he rode, I think, three horses over a series of issues, addressing their specific problems. One, he rode in draw reins and explained why he thought it was the right choice for that horse and its very specific issues. I've seen him teach about 30 people in clinics now and can only remember one incident where he recommended draw reins. I could be way off the mark but I've never got the sense he's a "serial user" any more than anyone else who rides a lot of a wide range on types, some of which may not have had super training up to that point. Besides, he's Mark Todd ;) and probably not in the habit of doing too much wrong. (Although I still have no desire to see him with his shirt off - once was enough, thanks. :D )

If the comment wasn't his . . . .well, meh. :)
 
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Some heavyweight posters on this one(competence not kilograms)so I am treading warily.I am currently riding and schooling an ISH who is to be honest a complete gangley mess with four left hooves.He is six with the ability of a yearling thoroughbred.Bless his cotton socks,he could be the replacement in my life for Lancelot.The thing I am battling with at the moment is the inability to soften to contact.I could go the draw reins route for a quick fix. The thing is ,he is not evading anything,he simply doesnt havethe strength.I feel instinctively that I am better able to give and take with the contact without any artificial aids,but sometimes I feel that maybe I am missing somthing because everyone else is using them.Thoughts please.
 
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