"barely out of draw reins" comment in "Eventing" - question pls.

although its tempting, i wouldnt put them on. just casue imo when you take them off again, you will be back where you are now. I would just concentrate alot more on getting her supple through her neck and through her ribs, bending flexing, moving away from you leg. Then it will lighten the contact and will be easier for you to ask for her to come round. All horses ive ridden that have been hard to get in an 'outline' have also been stiff through the rib cage and hard to flex, so thats where i would start... (feel free to ignore that.. you clearly have alot mroe experience than me in the subject!) :)
 
K, which mare is this?

I would use draw reins on a horse that was ignorant of the hand, like my ex-racehorse, to make the point about steadying up without having to swing off his gob.

My Dutch friend who used to stable jockey for some seriously good riders in Holland used them on young horses that were conformationally difficult to work in a round shape. The logic being that the longer they worked hollow, the less they built the muscles that would allow them to work round, which they eventually would have to do. Where she was a good horseman though, was that the horses that curled up had them taken straight off and were encouraged to work down whereas the horses that needed them were worked for shorter periods, 5-10 minutes a day, so they didn't break down through overwork.
 
It could just be a journalistic turn of phrase???

For example, a boy in short trousers (my nephew WANTS to wear shorts in secondary school and has just been told he can't).

I really don't think it's something to be taken too seriously. Also, I also think that the term "draw reins" can cover a lot of different systems
 
I haven't yet been to one yard yet (i live outside the UK) where I haven't seen draw reins being used as standard routine in schooling. These are horses competed at a high level in dressage and SJ, and they don't look 'forced in' - actually, they look to be working very nicely.

What I do object to though is the more novice younger riders who are learning to ride (and still 'find' their balance), who are trying to do advanced dressage movements with their horses heads held in so tightly it looks painful. I can't see the benefit :(
 
TarrSteps, there was no hint that it was Mark Todd's phrase, or habit to use them. I remember that article clearly (have been a MT fan for a long time!) & it was temporary use for a very specific evasion by an older horse...
Meh indeed, just for the phrase. I think she was looking for an equine equivalent of "barely out of nappies" tbh.
Bigboyrocky - she's pretty supple through ribs, we do loads of lateral work in walk, a little in trot... She just doesn't get the last bit of the whole outline thing... yet. Must keep remembering that "yet" word!
Mike, i think your instincts, like mine, are probably right... But, if you're sure the horse is physically fine (unlike mine tbh) then maybe having draw reins there as a guide/guard to show the horse what is wanted, might be a good idea...
Kit, this is my huge gangly TB x Stonegrove Ace mare, the real sweetie. "conformationally difficult" - that's exactly it. Hmm, maybe, just maybe, i'll try 5-10 mins at the end of a session, when she's fully suppled up. I think I need to be less black/white about them!
Thanks, all.
 
personally, apart from using draw reins for control i have only used them for one schooling evasion on one horse.

a mare i had owned since a 3yro, broken and schooled myself and at 17hh with a long conformation her canter was very down on my hands and i didn't have much control in terms of gears etc.

i waited until she was a 7yro before finally giving in and putting draw reins on for one session- she wore them for 15 mins max and it was like a penny dropping!
from that day her canter was so much lighter in the contact, she was sitting behind and her jumping improved beyond recognition.

i only wish i had put them on as a 5yro as the long term improvement was so drastic and all she needed was to be shown she could work in a different way.

on the pro side of the discussion- having worked for 1 dressage rider and 2 x event riders they all used draw reins for schooling on probably 30-40% of the horses on a regular basis.
 
Th only horse I have considered using them on is Jack, he is a pokey nosed old goat! I have tried softly softly, and I have tried stronger bits, but he jut doesn't get it, his neck is so incorrectly muscled it's near impossible to get him to see what you want so I thought about using them for one session because I'm sure once he realises what I want it won't be such a struggle and he can have them taken off,, and we can move on from there.

I don't think it's such a big deal K, you are more than capable of judging if they are working or not so why not pop them on and try, you can always take them off, and I'm sure in one session no damage will be done, you never know it might be just what the mare needs so she can get the message, and if it's nto then you haven't lost anythign either.... :)
 
I am one of those who really doesn't see the big problem with draw reins, if used correctly.

People often comment about horses leaning on them or being forced/pulled into an outline, but if they are used properly that really isn't what happens anyway, because they should only come into play if the horse raises its head and goes above the bit. The rest of the time they are loose.

I have only used them on one horse, and wouldn't use them as a matter of course or as a long term thing, but I do think they are a valuable aid that can make life easier and less stressful for both horse and rider. It only needs to take a few short sessions to get the message through to the horse and make working correctly a habit.
 
in your case, no, i would not say ''put her in draw reins to show her the way''. she is a young horse and i personally don't like the idea of draw reins being jused for flatwork.

I personally only use draw reins on Bugsy for hacking because he is VERY sharp and horrifically spooky, and even if they are just 'there' he is SO settled in his surroundings. i would NEVER use draw reins for flatwork or jumping, or on a horse that wasn't Bugsy - as i personally don't really like them either when they are used incorrectly...and i only use them on bugsy because it has such a tranformation on him during hacks (which is only really once or twice a week so he isnt overridden in draw reins, the rest of the time he is schooling [without draw reins] and competing)
 
Almost every person I have worked for (eventing,show jumping and dressage) has used them at one point, but never relied on them.
Like several people have mentioned, they are there as a last little bit of help, especially for slightly rude horses,especially out hacking.
I think I would look on them almost as giving a horse a tap with a schooling whip, just to get that bit more attention, but never to force them into what they are physically not capable of.
 
My old yard owner who evented my mare for a bit tied her head down in them, she wasnt strong enough to hold herself and it just caused her to tuck her head in and use her neck agapinst you. I now have a fab instructor who thinks that the head isnt the imprtant bit and we are working on long and low ok she isnt a dressage natural but is getting there slowly.
 
My loan horse was schooled in draw reins when he first came off the track. And I hope his owner wouldn't mind me saying that I think it was a mistake. He really struggles now with throughness, and he can be very tense through the back. It will take a lot of work to get him to the point where he happily works naturally from behind into a contact, and I think it would have been a lot easier if the draw reins had been left on the shelf. Having said that, I believe they have their place, on the right horse at the right time and in the right hands.
 
The only 'gadgets' I have in my kit box are draw reins and side reins. I have never needed anything else.

Draw reins have got a really bad image but I think they are really useful. I just think that the minority of people dont know how to use them. Like anything else you only hear the bad stories.

I have just brought my mare back into work after having 2 years off. She is a big mover, was losing balance and would start fighting me and running away. After a few sessions my shoulders were so sore that I can hardly move them. I put the draw reins on, much to the disgust of people at the yard, and she is a completely different horse. They are only on loose but there is no more fighting and running away, she is a complete dream to ride.

I would like to think that the pros know how to use them to get the best out of their horses. Therefore why is it such a big deal?
 
Sorry, nat1003, i think you've got that the wrong way round, I think the majority of people (amateurs anyway, and the majority of those i've seen using them) DON'T know how to use them. They winch the horse's head in, the real reins are loose (or, in some cases, removed.) It's a big deal in cases like that, because it makes the rider at least 10x stronger, and is an inescapable pressure.
The pic of Toddy shows exactly how they should be used imho - as a guard/guide, not as a winch.
 
kerilli said:
Sorry, nat1003, i think you've got that the wrong way round, I think the majority of people (amateurs anyway, and the majority of those i've seen using them) DON'T know how to use them. They winch the horse's head in, the real reins are loose (or, in some cases, removed.) It's a big deal in cases like that, because it makes the rider at least 10x stronger, and is an inescapable pressure.
The pic of Toddy shows exactly how they should be used imho - as a guard/guide, not as a winch.
Click to expand...


Kerilli I would say that you would certainly be experienced to use them properly and you know how a horse works correctly over the back, so I very much doubt you would just haul your horses head in.
Especially if she is a bit of a nose poker outer, one of my horses did this a little TB ex racehorse. The only thing is that he would work lovely with them on but he was no different when they weren't on him he still poked his nose anyway!!
 
all 3 yards i have worked in (sj) one abroad and 2 in the uk, they are standard gear. literally, the bridle goes from horse to horse with the draw reins, on most horses of any age. which is the same as what happens on my yard. but if they're used correctly then i think they're very useful.

something worth mentioning though - all the good showjumpers they have on these yards are usually sharp and often a bit quirky. they need alot of fitness and power for a specific time in the ring and its not always released at the right moments! when you're working them at home they can be a real handful when they're so finely tuned so i think they can be invaluable on something a little bit nuts. which IME most smart horses worth spending your time on are just that!!
 
Interesting to see Toddy using them on Land Vision as the horse originally came from a dressage career & won a dressage National Championship before being sold to event with Ollie Townend
 
I used to use them periodically on horses that were prone to evasion by chucking their heads up, or trying to rear (I had a few difficult rehab types). I then watched a fairly serious dressage rider/trainer use a Market Harborough for the very same reason I used draw reins, and had a lightbulb moment, and have never used draw reins again.
What I didn't like (and still dislike) is if you have something that fries underneath you, the draw reins are not an instant give away, but the MH is.
That important (for my situation) factor aside, the MH is only EVER in play when the horse is quite far past the vertical, assuming you have it correctly fitted, and so is just a back up to prevent rudeness, not forcing neck roundness.

I watched someone inexperienced once ride in draw reins so tightly she forced a galloping horse into a somersault. :(
Having seen that when I was quite young, the power of getting them badly wrong has always been at the back of my mind.

So, in response to your question -:p- I'd guess it's a short trousers/nappies remark.
 
See, that's what I don't like about the MH: you're not in control! My last horse was ridden in draw reins and I would only use them as a tweak in a half halt. I wouldn't have had that option in the MH. Plus, if your horse is conformed like a Camel, the MH is in effect from step 1 rather than allowing the horse to warm up alone.

I don't understand though, if you have something frying underneath you, why can't you just drop the extra rein? If you're worried about tangling legs, you can slip them through a neck strap. Loses the proper action, but still helps a bit.
 
Sorry, but I think you have completely misread this!!!! It is like saying "barely out of nappies"!
Nothing more! It was merely pointing out how relatively inexperienced the horse is/was.
 
huntley said:
Sorry, but I think you have completely misread this!!!! It is like saying "barely out of nappies"!
Nothing more! It was merely pointing out how relatively inexperienced the horse is/was.
Click to expand...

Hmm, why say 'draw reins' then...? are they like nappies for babies?
Surely the implication is that all young horses have to wear draw reins until they are grown up enough not to need them?!
 
GreyCoast said:
See, that's what I don't like about the MH: you're not in control! My last horse was ridden in draw reins and I would only use them as a tweak in a half halt. I wouldn't have had that option in the MH. Plus, if your horse is conformed like a Camel, the MH is in effect from step 1 rather than allowing the horse to warm up alone.

I don't understand though, if you have something frying underneath you, why can't you just drop the extra rein? If you're worried about tangling legs, you can slip them through a neck strap. Loses the proper action, but still helps a bit.
Click to expand...

I'm in control in a MH. I honestly don't think draw reins should be a means of 'control' as such, more a restrictive measure, ie preventing them getting too rude.

With a horse really frying, the draw rein contact cannot be released fast enough.
 
They are a really useful bit of kit but so often incorrectly used.

They should only be in contact when the horse is above the bit, otherwise they should be loose and the horse ridden on just your rein contact.

I had a lesson with one of the top dressage trainers in the country. He told me to go away, put draw reins on the horse and 'work him like a showjumper for a month' .
Did the trick for the horse.

How can you expect your horse to build up muscle to enable her to carry herself in a round outline when she works in a long flat outline all the time?

Just think of using the draw reins to show her the way a little bit
 
foxy1 said:
They are a really useful bit of kit but so often incorrectly used.

They should only be in contact when the horse is above the bit, otherwise they should be loose and the horse ridden on just your rein contact.

I had a lesson with one of the top dressage trainers in the country. He told me to go away, put draw reins on the horse and 'work him like a showjumper for a month' .
Did the trick for the horse.

How can you expect your horse to build up muscle to enable her to carry herself in a round outline when she works in a long flat outline all the time?

Just think of using the draw reins to show her the way a little bit
Click to expand...

I agree totally with your first two sentences.
Did the dressage trainer accept that you were able to train the horse to go correctly, but see that it just couldn't work out what you wanted?
As for your question, are you really saying that the only way to train a horse to carry itself in a round outline is with draw reins to show it the way? I think a LOT of trainers and riders, both classical and non-classical, might disagree with you.
(I'm still trying to decide whether to try them on this mare, btw.)
 
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