Barging cob!

[fburton]

I am not a believer that horses are automatically damaged by being told, as opposed to asked, in fair and appropriate circumstances though.
Mmm, don't think my point is very clear is it?

Clear enough to me, Amandap!

Yes, there is a middle ground - of course you are right there. If a dangerous situation arises, you have to deal with it there and then to keep everyone safe. All I'm saying is that prevention is better than cure, and a little deliberate and systematic preparation goes a long way to avoiding the kind of situation where a more extreme response would be called for.

I also see nothing wrong with correction/punishment as long as it fair and consistent. In my opinion, it should never look like bullying - and I was frankly shocked that anyone would advocate that here. What I find irksome and unhelpful is the assumption that the severity of a person's response to bad behaviour should be in proportion to how the person perceives it, rather than adjusting it to produce the most effective result for the horse - stopping the behaviour without creating unnecessary fear, bad feeling or loss of trust. This assumption means that, if the horse hurts you, he deserves to be hit in return. But why does the punishment need to fit the crime? We're not dealing with moral beings here! One only needs to do what's needed to stop the behaviour.

 

[amandap]

All I'm saying is that prevention is better than cure, and a little deliberate and systematic preparation goes a long way to avoiding the kind of situation where a more extreme response would be called for.

Of course I completely agree. There is also in all this the factor of the skill and understanding of the human. I have learned much since the experience I described, especially I think, about horses and what they might find reassuring and may well manage a stressed and bargy horse differently now. However that still depends on the individual horse and circumstances to some extent.

What I find irksome and unhelpful is the assumption that the severity of a person's response to bad behaviour should be in proportion to how the person perceives it, rather than adjusting it to produce the most effective result for the horse - stopping the behaviour without creating unnecessary fear, bad feeling or loss of trust. This assumption means that, if the horse hurts you, he deserves to be hit in return. But why does the punishment need to fit the crime? We're not dealing with moral beings here! One only needs to do what's needed to stop the behaviour.

I wholeheartedly agree. Along with this goes the idea that the horse 'knows better' or is 'putting it on'. There is also such a huge variation of how different humans 'see' a situation. This also changes over time as we change our perspective. I know my view has changed dramatically over the years.
Punishment fitting the crime isn't that successful in humans anyway is it? lol Also, we all view different crimes differently...

 

[superted1989]

Thanks again for all of your useful comments, experiences etc.
I'm definitely not a bunny hugger around horses (a bit 'old school', lol), I carry treats not to make them 'love me' but to praise good behaviour. Markie has had a lifetime of treats prior to me getting him, therefore, has a good search of most people that show him attention. Luckily, he's never been aggressive or demanding if he doesn't get anything.
Looking back, this barging out started after he had been in overnight, without his usual companion. My friend was first on the yard and he barged straight out. He's done it to her every time since. Maybe, he's linked the 2 things together? Today, YO was laughing at me as Markie's pal went out first and he was pushing at his door, waving his head around etc. I just said to him, in a normal voice, 'get back big cob' and pointed, she said, 'if it was me, he'd be having the rope wrapped round him, Kate's too nice' but he didn't attempt to come out. Being a bit cussed, I left the door open whilst I put his headcollar on!
As it's DIY, very few people have to handle Markie, so, this weekend my mate and I will do some work with him. I've got a pressure headcollar (can't afford a dually), so will get her doing some back up work with him in a low key way. Sadly, she can overthink some things and, from a conversation in the week, I think, after the first occasion, she may have gone to his stable shouting and aggressive before anything could go wrong. He's a big chap and, if it's a battle of strength in a 'pressure' situation, he will win every time.
He is 19 and, according to his old owners, he's not been bargy, so it should be a straight forward fix (fingers crossed).

 

[Kaylum]

OP sounds a good plan. Also when we had a barger I would get one of the girls to climb over the stable door and tie him up and left the door open and I would go in and out of the stable for a while and then untie and leave him in. When he was happy I would lead in and out a few times. Tie him up again gently praising him. Did this for a couple of weeks until you could go in with a headcollar tie up leave for a couple of minutes and then lead out at a calm pace. Build up without him noticing.

Repeating processes is how you teach animals.

I hate the treat thing but if it works for your horse and your happy with it then thats good.

 

[tazzle]

Thanks again for all of your useful comments, experiences etc.
I'm definitely not a bunny hugger around horses (a bit 'old school', lol), I carry treats not to make them 'love me' but to praise good behaviour.

That sounds perfect for pos reinforcement ....


. and using pos reinforcement does not mean one is a "bunny hugger" in the meaning of being so soft one does not correct unwanted behaviours


Markie has had a lifetime of treats prior to me getting him, therefore, has a good search of most people that show him attention. Luckily, he's never been aggressive or demanding if he doesn't get anything.

if you were to move onto pos reinforcement it might actually be harder for him to adjust than a horse that had never been fed treats at all , especailly if he had got them "just because"

Looking back, this barging out started after he had been in overnight, without his usual companion. My friend was first on the yard and he barged straight out. He's done it to her every time since. Maybe, he's linked the 2 things together?


sounds like a logical, understandable rection / link



Today, YO was laughing at me as Markie's pal went out first and he was pushing at his door, waving his head around etc. I just said to him, in a normal voice, 'get back big cob' and pointed, she said, 'if it was me, he'd be having the rope wrapped round him, Kate's too nice' but he didn't attempt to come out. Being a bit cussed, I left the door open whilst I put his headcollar on!



yes, sometimes its the intent the horse pays attention to not the amount of physical use of ropes/ whips etc



As it's DIY, very few people have to handle Markie, so, this weekend my mate and I will do some work with him. I've got a pressure headcollar (can't afford a dually), so will get her doing some back up work with him in a low key way. Sadly, she can overthink some things and, from a conversation in the week, I think, after the first occasion, she may have gone to his stable shouting and aggressive before anything could go wrong.

However she may not have had enough real "intent"[/I]


He's a big chap and, if it's a battle of strength in a 'pressure' situation, he will win every time.

agree

He is 19 and, according to his old owners, he's not been bargy, so it should be a straight forward fix (fingers crossed).

sounds like you have it all sussed

Thanks fburton and amandap for your kind remarks


I think there are def occasions when a horse does need very clear and firm handling and its unfair to leave that principle to "emergency" situations when adrenaline is up for both horse and human.




I think this is very important ...

yes, sometimes its the intent the horse pays attention to not the amount of physical use of ropes/ whips etc


my horse will stand by calmly while humans jump up and down and wave arms around (or even wave a whip) .... as long as there is no intent from the human that she move . However as long as the human is meaning to ask her she will move forward / back or laterally to a suggestion of body language. It was a surprise to me a few weeks ago though when she ignored an adults request to move even though her body appeared to be giving the right physical "signals" ....... but this lady had no belief in herself that she could do it is so really had no intent whatsoever. It was an internal process she needed to access ( she had asked me to teach her to do this )

Of course thats why some people can appear to do so little and horses do so much for them lol

 

[MagicMelon]

I had a Welsh Cob who did this when I got him, he wasn't stabled but of the occassional time he was he would barge out so I did nothing but shut him in the stable over and over again for about an hour each day, going over it. If you keep his headcollar on and keep hold of the leadrope and work on pushing him back, make him respect your space. I used a schooling whip (the handle end) and I'd push it into his chest so he moved back from it (as soon as he moves back, release the pressure) whilst saying back, then I'd make lots of fuss. So he soon learnt what "back" meant. Then try the same with the door. Have him shut in, you standing on the other side and before you open it, make him go back. Then fiddle with the door as if you're going to open it (but dont) and again, if he rushes forward calmly ask him to move back. You just move onto the next stages once he is calm with the one before. Worked well for mine, you have to put it into all daily life though - you might find that the horse is pushy at other times, even when grooming if he moves into your space - immediately push hm away. Mine would try to rush out of the stable or trailer when I was leading him so again, I did it time and time again (literally walking in and out of the stable 10 times every night!).