Bargy filly any ideas?

L&B

L&B

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I have a wee filly just turned 1yo who I've had for 7months. I've pretty much taught her everything a youngster needs - she picks feet, will be bathed, sprayed, rugged, brushed everywhere, she ties up nicely and leads with anyone, trots up and is good as gold on the roads nothing bothers her. We have been to a show and got placed 2nd in a strong class of 3yos. I took her to purely see bits and pieces and she again didn't bat an eyelid. Shes very chilled about most things...
The only thing I can fault her with really is her mareish attitude I'm not sure where I'm going wrong or if I've been over handling her.
We don't have a schedule or strict routine, she is out all day brought in once per day for a feed and hoof pick and groom then back out, her little bits of education are done for 30min stints on a weekend. Once per week.

When I say mareish behaviour what I mean is her general expression is usually ears back. She can be fairly food aggressive as in swings her head if you go close and will barge you out of the way at 1000 knots.
She is bargy and knocks you flying, pushes you out of her way, stands on you...
If I tell her 'no' shes worse. Or if I get her to backup and move away she will throw her head and pin her ears.

I've known bargy youngsters but they've usually had other issues, where as she hasn't... Or doesn't appear to have. She just has a problem with whatever I ask on occasions.

So my questions are, how would you handle this? Would you ignore? Reprimand?
And as for the rest of summer, I could just leave her out unhandled and do nothing more with her? Or I could carry on with my basic handling each day?...

Absolutely NO nasty comments. If you haven't anything helpful to say please keep it to yourself. I adore my horses with all I have, I would never do anything to ruin her future and it wouldn't do us all to be the same - I'm asking for different opinions. No nasty comments. They'll be ignored.
 
I would have no nonsense, no fluffy bunny, sounds as though she is a bit spoilt. Put her in stable, go and get feed bucket , ask her to step back from you, then put bucket down and leave her.
She needs to learn there is a no go area round you, she is not allowed in to your space, end of.
Any nonsense and she gets a quick rap with the end of the lead rein. Don't make a big thing of it, just do not allow her to behave like this.
 
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Thanks tonnes for the advice! She gets worse if I tell her no or or ask her to move away though... I just have to keep going with it and risk her swinging her bum/head to me and be brave enough to still say 'no' when she threatens to kick or squash barge me! A battle of wills...
I may, after this weekend turf her out!! And leave her for a month except for feet /basics...
 
Don't give her the chance to have a go at you, keep her head under control and her feet under your command, she cannot barge or turn her back on you if you have hold of her head. There should be someone who can show you how , there is no question of taking risks, she has to learn that you are the boss, not her.
 
Having the same food issue with my yearling, but he's slowly getting that he has to wait patiently before he gets his dinner. He steps back when in the stable but then rushes forwards as soon as I'm in. I push him back and make him stand a few feet away from me before I put his dinner down. He's worse being fed when in the field, sometimes I have to chase him off and he has a bit of a tantrum and canters around me for a bit and then he seems to realise that I'm not going to give up and he'll stand. I'll go over and give him a scratch, leaving the feed bucket behind me, then go back to it and pick it up. Most of the time he'll stand where I've left him until I come back and give him his feed. Sometimes he'll follow me to the bucket but I don't mind as long as he backs up and stands for five seconds before I give it to him. Not sure if it's a "traditional" method but it seems to work for us.

Sometimes when I chase him off and he has a tantrum he'll pin his ears but he's never threatened to kick or come at me. But if he comes too close I will throw my arms up and send him further away. It's all about keeping distance. She's just trying to test boundaries, like my boy and you need to nip it in the bud quickly. Like yours my boy is fantastic with everything else and as good as gold, just getting a little big for his boots where food is concerned. I'd definitely start in the stable as others have suggested, use the lead rope as a bit of a guard between you and her, flick it, wave it, the movement alone should get her to back off but if she's persistent give her a flick on the chest with it. You need to keep persevering and keeping up the same standards and be prepared for it to take 10/20 minutes to get her to back down. It's definitely worth it in the long run.
 
L&B said:
I have a wee filly just turned 1yo who I've had for 7months. I've pretty much taught her everything a youngster needs - she picks feet, will be bathed, sprayed, rugged, brushed everywhere, she ties up nicely and leads with anyone, trots up and is good as gold on the roads nothing bothers her. We have been to a show and got placed 2nd in a strong class of 3yos. I took her to purely see bits and pieces and she again didn't bat an eyelid. Shes very chilled about most things...
The only thing I can fault her with really is her mareish attitude I'm not sure where I'm going wrong or if I've been over handling her.
We don't have a schedule or strict routine, she is out all day brought in once per day for a feed and hoof pick and groom then back out, her little bits of education are done for 30min stints on a weekend. Once per week.

When I say mareish behaviour what I mean is her general expression is usually ears back. She can be fairly food aggressive as in swings her head if you go close and will barge you out of the way at 1000 knots.
She is bargy and knocks you flying, pushes you out of her way, stands on you...
If I tell her 'no' shes worse. Or if I get her to backup and move away she will throw her head and pin her ears.

I've known bargy youngsters but they've usually had other issues, where as she hasn't... Or doesn't appear to have. She just has a problem with whatever I ask on occasions.

So my questions are, how would you handle this? Would you ignore? Reprimand?
And as for the rest of summer, I could just leave her out unhandled and do nothing more with her? Or I could carry on with my basic handling each day?...

Absolutely NO nasty comments. If you haven't anything helpful to say please keep it to yourself. I adore my horses with all I have, I would never do anything to ruin her future and it wouldn't do us all to be the same - I'm asking for different opinions. No nasty comments. They'll be ignored.
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I had one of these, except it was 7 years old and weighed in at 600kg when I bought it. I am afraid it was allowed to barge into my blue pipe. She soon realised that rudeness is not allowed and is a very pleasant horse to have around now.

At just a yearling and showing such bad manners I would be sorting her out very quickly, was she hand reared by any chance.
 
A rope halter, sensibly used, is a great training aid. But do spend some time learning how to use one properly. It can be as soft or as harsh as the user wants. Also a stick with a blunt point on the end. I am very much against striking any animal, not for "fluffy bunny" reasons but because they will inevitably try to anticipate what they think may be a blow and take evasive action, i.e. suddenly shying or flinching at any quick movement on your part. You can use the blunt stick to ward off a horse invading your space. If it ignores your instructions to back off, it walks into the pointy end and the discomfort is self administered. As Monty Roberts puts it, "Actions bring consequences". Just don't expect animals to be candidates for Mastermind! Keep it simple.
 
Thankyou for all your replies, I really appreciate them.
A lot of friend have said it's a case of tough love until she learns, as at the moment it's a battle of wills - I tell her back, she barges me, I tell her a firm no and push her back, she swings her bum and squashes me up against wall/stable/shed/field shelter... (dependant on whether I have her on the headcollar or not) if she attempt to barge still ill stand my ground and lunge at her saying 'get back now' and so she takes one step back then lunges back at me again... And so on and so on... :( hate it hate it hate it!

No not hand reared but taken off mum early at stud as dragging her down. And taught to accept headcollar and lead from field to shelter with a bucket until she came to me at 6mo.
 
L&B said:
Thankyou for all your replies, I really appreciate them.
A lot of friend have said it's a case of tough love until she learns, as at the moment it's a battle of wills - I tell her back, she barges me, I tell her a firm no and push her back, she swings her bum and squashes me up against wall/stable/shed/field shelter... (dependant on whether I have her on the headcollar or not) if she attempt to barge still ill stand my ground and lunge at her saying 'get back now' and so she takes one step back then lunges back at me again... And so on and so on... :( hate it hate it hate it!


No not hand reared but taken off mum early at stud as dragging her down. And taught to accept headcollar and lead from field to shelter with a bucket until she came to me at 6mo.
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It sounds like you need some help in dealing with the situation 'in the moment' as you lunging at her and her lunging at you could escalate until you end up hurt or with a very opinionated yearling. personally I would stop feeding her turn her away for a month and start from scratch with no feed involved until you have a calmer polite relationship with your filly...
 
I'll probably get shot down for this but would maybe suggest a whip, once she's been "told" (hate that expression) once or twice she may get the message. Most of the time the shock is enough to make them think. Also think of your body language, stand tall, shoulders back etc. express confidence but not aggression. If a horse feels threatened it will try to defend itself. Pack or herd animals look for dominance and respond well to it. Don't forget, as much as we love horses, they are animals and don't see the world as we do.
Just lots of patience and stubbornness and she'll come round.

Edit, why is she being fed? Is she lacking something or is it just a treat? Maybe cut out feed- if its not necessary then why bother?
 
Hi OP, If she was mine she would be getting a smack. Barging is rude and very dangerous.

I don't mean beat her, but you shouldn't tolerate this behaviour at all.

Using a long rope will mean you can have control at a distance if she is being a twit.

If she is barging out of the stable a stable chain across the door will let you get in the stable without her being able to barge through the doorway.

It sounds like you could do with a bit of help OP. I hope she improves for you. Good luck xx
 
wattamus said:
I'll probably get shot down for this but would maybe suggest a whip, once she's been "told" (hate that expression) once or twice she may get the message. Most of the time the shock is enough to make them think. Also think of your body language, stand tall, shoulders back etc. express confidence but not aggression. If a horse feels threatened it will try to defend itself. Pack or herd animals look for dominance and respond well to it. Don't forget, as much as we love horses, they are animals and don't see the world as we do.
Just lots of patience and stubbornness and she'll come round.

A whip is not substantial enough, a blue pipe or half a broom stale is more effective, she can then 'run onto' a solid object as she barges rather than a thin bendy whip. The solid pole can be used in front the chest or into the rib cage to keep the horse out of the handlers space.
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Okay when I said lunging at her I just mean arms in the air and loud growly voice saying 'how dare you' or 'get back now'. This usually works and she'll come back to me with her ears up and bowed head... But give in 5mins and shes back to herself again. Perhaps I'm not persisting enough?
She is being fed currently due to allergies and me needing to get meds into her. In the past it has been a matter of routine. She barges out of the stable and has ripped off two door guards breaking the wood on the stable...
I wonder if shes bottom of the pile in the field and so asserting herself over me. Can this happen?
I do think a stint in the field for maybe a month except for basics is the way to go here...
 
When one of mine tried to squash me against the stable wall for wanting to groom him I used a hoof pick between his flank and the wall so that his movement caused him pain. He looked surprised but didn't try again. If you are going to hit your horse to install some manners, and the blue water pipe sounds good, only use it when the horse comes at you, don't be tempted to follow/chase after her to have another swipe.
 
Sounds like very naughty and dangerous behaviour! She is being quite the madam!

The root of the problem may be that she hasn't been taught to respect your personal space. You can go into hers but she cannot come into yours without an invitation.

I second the get a blue pipe/half a broom handle. When you hold it with your arm outstretched, that is your personal space. Teach her that if she comes uninvited into your 'space bubble' she runs into the stick. She also needs to learn that when that headcollar is on, if you are in front of her she cannot come past you unless instructed and she is to stand and lead at a respectful distance, not on top of you. Teaching her to back up instantly when asked would also be very helpful.

When horses get away with certain naughty behaviours they can be furious when the rules are changed. Be very assertive, determined and keep in the back of your mind you are doing this for her own good.

If possible, try to have someone with you when you are working on this and maybe consider wearing a hat, just to be safe.

Good luck OP, you can to this!
 
Thanks so much for all of the advice so far :)
I appreciate it and I'm taking it all onboard...

So if I manage to get to a stage where she respects my space all of the time instead of 30% of the time and shes still pinning her ears should I worry about this so long as she's doing what I'm asking of her?
I've never known a youngster nor any adult horse I've owned to pin their ears how she does lol...
For example 30% of the time she will lead and step aside as I've asked her to - she won't be happy about it, but she'll do it... The other 70% of the time she is as described throughout the thread. So even though she may pin her ears and pull a face, so long as she's doing what I ask - need I worry? I don't want her to feel p***ed off all the time at what I'm asking her, it's simple stuff - move over, stand, wait etc.

I could really do with getting someone to film me so you can see it for yourself... Hmm.
 
I always teach them to respect my space, i.e. a bubble around me which equates to as far as I can reach with outstretched arms. I can't really explain how to do it, it is a matter of timing and intent, and you don't say whereabouts in the country you are. It is the kind of thing senior herd members will teach a youngster - does she have any senior members she is turned out with who can teach her polite herd behaviour? They tell her non verbally if she is too close, and that is the basis for the techniques I use (with due acknowledgement to Mark Rashid, I have seen bolshy horses transformed by him in this way in a very few minutes).
I lead them with a headcollar rope between my two hands, then when I feel they are getting too close, I turn and stretch my hands out wide to form a barrier with the rope - firmly and with real intent, being apologetic won't get the message across. If and when they carry on getting too close, just firmly back them up to where they should be (I presume she backs up when you ask - that is a respectful thing for her to do). Usually about 4 or 5 repeats is what it takes for them to respect my space, and along with that comes a more general respect for me as their handler. If you are anywhere near here (NE Shropshire) I could come and show you, or you might find someone in your area who knows how to do it.
 
You totally need to stamp on this behaviour at this point or you will end up with a dangerous horse as she grows up. It's very easy to let them get away with things when they are babies but her coming at you with her ears back it is because she is treating you like a horse who is lower in the pecking order than she is. She likely won't be able to do this to her companions at this age but she has discovered she can intimidate you.
If you need help to teach yourself to be assertive with her, get someone to come out to you as soon as possible. If you stamp on this now it will save you from future problems and possible injuries.
I know two horses who were like this when they were young and allowed to get away with it and they ended up stroppy, opinionated adult horses who were not nice to be around so you need to deal with it now.
 
L&B said:
Thanks so much for all of the advice so far :)
I appreciate it and I'm taking it all onboard...

So if I manage to get to a stage where she respects my space all of the time instead of 30% of the time and shes still pinning her ears should I worry about this so long as she's doing what I'm asking of her?
I've never known a youngster nor any adult horse I've owned to pin their ears how she does lol...
For example 30% of the time she will lead and step aside as I've asked her to - she won't be happy about it, but she'll do it... The other 70% of the time she is as described throughout the thread. So even though she may pin her ears and pull a face, so long as she's doing what I ask - need I worry? I don't want her to feel p***ed off all the time at what I'm asking her, it's simple stuff - move over, stand, wait etc.

I could really do with getting someone to film me so you can see it for yourself... Hmm.
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It sound like a respect issue, 30% she will do it but resents it as she doesn't feel she needs to be taking orders from you then the other 70% is her deciding not to take orders from you.

Once she realises you are boss, firm but fair and in control, her disrespectful behaviour (including pinning ears back) should diminish.
 
Unfortunately youngsters will push their boundaries again and again.....it's what they do - relentlessly until they learn..... and it gets worse when they are two! By three they come round again but you have to be consistent - like you would with a toddler - don't give an inch or they will take a yard. So although you say you can growl at her and she will back down but five minutes later she tries again, I'm afraid that's youngsters for you. You need to nip it in the bud now whilst she is still young and smaller than a 2yo. She will gradually learn and realise you mean business and you'll probably find that her attempts to be assertive with you become less - but they will still happen... they just can't help themselves! But do enjoy her, this is all part of her baby education.
 
L&B said:
Okay when I said lunging at her I just mean arms in the air and loud growly voice saying 'how dare you' or 'get back now'. This usually works and she'll come back to me with her ears up and bowed head... But give in 5mins and shes back to herself again. Perhaps I'm not persisting enough?
She is being fed currently due to allergies and me needing to get meds into her. In the past it has been a matter of routine. She barges out of the stable and has ripped off two door guards breaking the wood on the stable...
I wonder if shes bottom of the pile in the field and so asserting herself over me. Can this happen?
I do think a stint in the field for maybe a month except for basics is the way to go here...
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My rescue girl used to do this. It took a good 1 -2 years to win her respect and confidence that she didn't have to barge past me and exit stage left every time the stable door opened. She was also bargy being led and a rope halter is a key part to my toolkit. I need to use it every now and then mainly when the grass is going and everyone is over keen to come in for tea or a windy night and she is understandably on her toes. Hitting this horse was counter productive - someone who worked for me once tried it and it set her back . The key was calm, consistent firm and kind care and she is now a really loving and chilled out mare. You will get there :)
 
L&B I think you may have hit on the answer when you say she is out with older mares and is at the bottom of the heap. She is maybe using a display of aggression as a means of defence and as you are not transmitting the correct signals (in horsey terms!) she is using a display of aggression in an attempt to control you. It is all she knows.

I have an older mare here (14?) who has always pinned her ears back when she approaches me. I soon learnt that this is pure and simple bluff. She too is at the bottom of the heap and easily intimidated by a more superior mare. Her previous owner admitted that she was selling her because she was scared of her. The bluff does not work with me. She sent me flying just once (when barging through a narrow gap to get to fresh grass). After that, I carried a stick for a while but never once had to use it, just show it to her. These days (6 years on) I don't need the stick. She hardly ever puts her ears back and when she does I just tell her to stop being a stupid old sod and I give her a scratch! She has NEVER tried to bite or kick, just looks as if she might. :D
 
So is she only like this around food? I've read through again but it's not clear.

You've been given great advice above.

I was in this position with a 2 yr old Welsh C I took on as a companion, was a bit skinny and wormy although you could see the 'chunk' in her. She had been sharing not enough hay in a field with half a dozen bigger & bossier cobs in winter so her behaviour was understandable sadly. However she got more bargy as our first week went by and it was taking more and more firm 'backs and stands to have a polite ish feed time. I was on a busy yard and it was a nightmare to lead her past where other horses were eating even if she couldn't see them! She would lunge and leap towards their stables. I also suspected someone was giving her treats (maybe even extra feeds as she was thin but I was working on it!) as she got nippy and bargy very quickly. She was a bit gawky and you could see she was a baby sometimes and other liveries were just 'awww'. I was sadly starting to think I had bitten off more than I could chew. When I went to see her it was in the field and she was quiet as a lamb but it was plain she was bottom and still did the baby mouthing.

Then about 10 days in as I went to give her tea she decided to go the full hog with ears back, mini rear while hopping on the back, and swinging her head. Her head/neck caught my shoulder as she hopped forward and I lost my balance. It could have been nasty but I managed to get my feet back under me and I went balistic, grabbed and threw the bucket at her, jumped up and down waving my arms, yelled back back back, I hate you, you're going back, etc etc. She shot to the back of the stable with eyes on stalks and tried to jump up the wall. It broke my heart seeing that and knowing I had done it. I staggered out of the stable and collapsed sobbing. It must have taken about 15 seconds . She had everything she needed so I turned the light off, went a had a cuddle with my horse, and vowed to phone the owner tomorrow to send her back.

I got there at 5.30am the next morning after a sleepless emotional night and she whinneyed at me for the first time. I got her feed and headed to her stable with my heart racing and sweaty palms, she backed up on first ask and stood quite calmly with her ears up and bright soft eyes. I stepped back and said 'go on then' and she walked calmly forward and I left her to eat in peace.

She was a lady around food for the next 2.5 years before going back to her owner and the following winter I was able to feed her in the field with my other horse and a simple ah-ah if she so much as looked at the other bucket was enough to stop her even thinking of pestering my girl. In fact it turned into a little bit of a game and she would pretend to be affronted and snort at me while prancing round. Once my other mare had walked away from her bucket I would say 'go on then' and she would get to lick the already spotless bucket. I loved that girl.

So.. I'm wondering if your mare is only doing this around food because of the below. Some horses do get lively around their feed and will stomp feet and move about so maybe she is one of those and she just needs a bit of space to eat?


L&B said:
Okay when I said lunging at her I just mean arms in the air and loud growly voice saying 'how dare you' or 'get back now'. This usually works and she'll come back to me with her ears up and bowed head... But give in 5mins and shes back to herself again. Perhaps I'm not persisting enough?
...
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Good luck, I'm sure you will work through it.

ETA

I think this was also the case with with my loan girl although I was told at the time by another livery that she wouldn't think like that. I was a bit naive and let my heart rule my not youngster experienced head so maybe I should have questioned it. We ended up with a fantastic relationship though after our 'discussion'.

Thank you for posting this DR. I've never thought to look into it given the change in my relationship with the pony so it's only come back to my mind with this thread. It's good to hear from an experienced knowledgeable person (I've lurked for a while lol) that it could have been a factor.

Dry Rot said:
L&B I think you may have hit on the answer when you say she is out with older mares and is at the bottom of the heap. She is maybe using a display of aggression as a means of defence and as you are not transmitting the correct signals (in horsey terms!) she is using a display of aggression in an attempt to control you. It is all she knows.
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