Basic training; liberty?

[char.lotte]

I have been exercising a small gypsy cob that is a dream on the ground - when he isn't desperately snatching at any form of food!
He has been in inconsistent work throughout his life after being broken by a novicey man to do light hacking and enjoy, he has always been
slow off the leg and mellow.
I have started slowly building up our hacking and getting him balanced at a canter and trot, more importantly listening to aids and working with his suppleness and flexibility whilst out and about doing what he is most comfortable/used to before applying it to light schooling, (some low level showing has been spoken about but I do not believe he would enjoy it). The eventual aim is to get him going nicely off the leg and transition to canter without arguing with me.
I personally find he is not an enjoyable ride because of his lack of enthusiasm for everything, disregard of aids and focus on food. Saying this, I really do love him and he has such a huge personality.
I have done some research into liberty training and I think it could massively benefit him in regards to attitude, confidence, respect and focus. It would also be a nice way to introduce him to the school more that just some walk, trot, halt, figures and poles which I think causes his attention to stray.
I have read a bit and understand the process to some extent but how do I do even begin; yes I know consistency is key but how do I begin? All his life he is used to walking behind a person... when you walk shoulder to shoulder he slows to a halt despite vocal encouragement.

Could anyone offer some insight into how to begin basic liberty?
How do I encourage activity in upward transitions?
How best to kindly teach him shoulder to shoulder walk?
Thank you all!

 

[GypsGal1718]

I would start on the ground with basic follow in different gaits then you can rope that into your transitions

 

[char.lotte]

I would start on the ground with basic follow in different gaits then you can rope that into your transitions

Would it be okay for him to be following me then? Or does he have to be beside me?

 

[cornbrodolly]

Beginning liberty is like having a halter on . eg ask the horse to be with you shoulder to shoulder . How do you keep the horse up to your shoulder when on line ? Until you can do that without any pull on the rope , then you have no basis for liberty . Cues to be put in place - ask for his feet to move before yours, so [eg ] to walk forward you would lift your ribcage , lift the hand with the rope in it , look where you d like him to step, then wait , reinforce the 'ask' after a few seconds with your stick onto ground behind his barrel/hqs. Once he is good on line with following your cues - then try without .It may take some time, or not . Following you around is not the plan- this isnt 'join up,' but so much more. So all your groundwork games' that are good on the halter and line can be started with the horse at liberty- going from easy - lead , stand etc , to the harder ones , sideways , jump etc.
I cant stress enough how important the following are :
1 reward every try. Never let the horse think he isnt doing enough for you .
2 the safe place is the centre of your area [ ideally not a round pen , corners allow the horse to 'escape' from you rather than have constant pressure] so at the centre you can reward with a rest, a scratch , a relaxation. Then he will want to be at that place.
3 drive and draw - they must be equal - no constant pushing away and sending the horse out and forwards [ ie I m not a Monty fan !] , the draw is what you re after.
4 its never a competition, but a way to build a relationship . Drilled horses get very sour
Sorry if I sound teacher-y - used to love teaching liberty - every horse was so very different !
I especially like Frederick Pignon s way of working . Read or watch K F Hemphling to get your own body language 'neutral' so that the horse can easily understand the cues.
Its a fascinating thing - and lastly, dont be disappointed if your horse seems to 'not like you' in the initial stages. For once they are literally 'at liberty' to choose to do something else/ bog off/ have a strong opinion. But that s the joy of it also , because it all gets better!

 

[char.lotte]

Beginning liberty is like having a halter on . eg ask the horse to be with you shoulder to shoulder . How do you keep the horse up to your shoulder when on line ? Until you can do that without any pull on the rope , then you have no basis for liberty . Cues to be put in place - ask for his feet to move before yours, so [eg ] to walk forward you would lift your ribcage , lift the hand with the rope in it , look where you d like him to step, then wait , reinforce the 'ask' after a few seconds with your stick onto ground behind his barrel/hqs. Once he is good on line with following your cues - then try without .It may take some time, or not . Following you around is not the plan- this isnt 'join up,' but so much more. So all your groundwork games' that are good on the halter and line can be started with the horse at liberty- going from easy - lead , stand etc , to the harder ones , sideways , jump etc.
I cant stress enough how important the following are :
1 reward every try. Never let the horse think he isnt doing enough for you .
2 the safe place is the centre of your area [ ideally not a round pen , corners allow the horse to 'escape' from you rather than have constant pressure] so at the centre you can reward with a rest, a scratch , a relaxation. Then he will want to be at that place.
3 drive and draw - they must be equal - no constant pushing away and sending the horse out and forwards [ ie I m not a Monty fan !] , the draw is what you re after.
4 its never a competition, but a way to build a relationship . Drilled horses get very sour
Sorry if I sound teacher-y - used to love teaching liberty - every horse was so very different !
I especially like Frederick Pignon s way of working . Read or watch K F Hemphling to get your own body language 'neutral' so that the horse can easily understand the cues.
Its a fascinating thing - and lastly, dont be disappointed if your horse seems to 'not like you' in the initial stages. For once they are literally 'at liberty' to choose to do something else/ bog off/ have a strong opinion. But that s the joy of it also , because it all gets better!

Thank you so much for the advice, you clearly know what you are doing, I will definitely check K F Hemphling out! Can't wait to build that 'bond' with him.

 

[McGrools]

There are some really good western trainers on YouTube that focus on groundwork. I am especially enjoying Ryan Rose at the moment. He has a great way with words in how he explains himself and builds a brilliant trust with the horses he works with.
I find him really interesting to watch

 

[Landcruiser]

Where are you? There's a place local to me that regularly does liberty clinics and demos at all levels including total beginner (North Wiltshire). I took my youngster to a clinic just for the experience, and found it quite interesting, and not quite what I'd imagined (in a good way).

 

[P.forpony]

Spot on with the 4 important points and with starting on a line
I'd just add with a horse that is already slow off the leg, mellow and inattentive to your aids, you might actually have to touch him with the stick!

I use vocal cues for all gaits and leave legs for lateral work and collection. If I get a horse that needs a ridiculous amount of leg just to keep them going, I stop using the leg completely for a while.
If they're not listening to it, you're only wearing yourself out and bruising their ribs.
A decent length schooling whip to replace the leg does a whole lot more for responsiveness and forward motion, and is a much more comfortable thing for both of you.
Give a clear verbal cue, if there is no try, reinforce with the stick. It rarely takes more than 3 corrections before they're thinking forwards.

And for the argument to canter the same thing applies. My tb came to me with a massive hissy fit over left leg canter. He finds it difficult, so if he even thought I was going to ask, he'd chuck his head at me and slam on the breaks.
Once he understood that I rewarded the forward try, even if it was the wrong leg or just a silly fast trot, he started to relax and stop bracing against himself.

 

[char.lotte]

Spot on with the 4 important points and with starting on a line
I'd just add with a horse that is already slow off the leg, mellow and inattentive to your aids, you might actually have to touch him with the stick!

I use vocal cues for all gaits and leave legs for lateral work and collection. If I get a horse that needs a ridiculous amount of leg just to keep them going, I stop using the leg completely for a while.
If they're not listening to it, you're only wearing yourself out and bruising their ribs.
A decent length schooling whip to replace the leg does a whole lot more for responsiveness and forward motion, and is a much more comfortable thing for both of you.
Give a clear verbal cue, if there is no try, reinforce with the stick. It rarely takes more than 3 corrections before they're thinking forwards.

And for the argument to canter the same thing applies. My tb came to me with a massive hissy fit over left leg canter. He finds it difficult, so if he even thought I was going to ask, he'd chuck his head at me and slam on the breaks.
Once he understood that I rewarded the forward try, even if it was the wrong leg or just a silly fast trot, he started to relax and stop bracing against himself.

Thank you so much this makes a lot of sense and is really insightful. The canter argument is more that he will go more forwards once he realises you are serious, but he is extremely reluctant to actually go into a canter - he manages to trot faster than he canters sometimes!

 

[gunnergundog]

Kathy Sierra PantherFlow I found fascinating. I found her via her Pain Science workshop to help my 'wonky donkey'. A lot of it is about motivation for movement. You can find some of her material on youtube. She does/did have a corporate life too, so sometimes when you search on her you get big conference lectures coming up! https://www.pantherflow.com/

 

[char.lotte]

Kathy Sierra PantherFlow I found fascinating. I found her via her Pain Science workshop to help my 'wonky donkey'. A lot of it is about motivation for movement. You can find some of her material on youtube. She does/did have a corporate life too, so sometimes when you search on her you get big conference lectures coming up! https://www.pantherflow.com/

Thank you, will check her out, sounds exactly what we need!

 

[blitznbobs]

Basic liberty starts in a halter… i like also to get the horse used to a whip by making it a non confrontational thing - rubbing it all over the horse, waving it round the horse whilst never hitting the horse with it. The. start with ‘follow the leader’ horse needs to stay about 6 feet behind you - forward, backward and use your body language to push them and back up with halter to show what you mean . Follow the leader comes usually within one or two sessions.

REWARD THE TRY

Ignore the error…

It takes timing to truly reward the try but you are trying to build a friendship so be clear in your expectations and reward everything that is a step towards what you want

 

[Dave's Mam]

Oh this is very interesting & very well timed as something I was thinking about trying.

 

[dominobrown]

Sam Van fleet has some videos on YouTube but a lot of the video is what the above people have said but if you want to watch some of her sessions of beginning horses in liberty it might be useful.

 

[GypsGal1718]

He can follow if you feel okay with that and he may find that easier but eventually shoulder to shoulder so he isn’t relying on you. Alway reward even the slightest bit right

 

[char.lotte]

He can follow if you feel okay with that and he may find that easier but eventually shoulder to shoulder so he isn’t relying on you. Alway reward even the slightest bit right

I took him for an inhand walk to get him used to me leading with minimal pressure on the headcollar and I will admit it didn't go great. He is always nappy leaving the yard and on foot it was worse poor guy, then he was very sluggy and when I walked next to him he would slow to a stop regardless of pressure! Will keep going slowly although how do I reward for every effort as he has ems and is on restricted grazing, soaked hay, minimal treats etc. and becomes very bolshy/ nearly aggressive when hand fed - or floor fed if he sees the treat come from someone.

 

[canteron]

Apologies if this has been mentioned above, but one important thing is to completely exaggerate your body cues to begin with - you can always refine them later!

For example, if you want the horse to walk beside you, your cue is to stand up really straight and walk on in a positive manner, if you want the horse to stand, you sink down into yourself and make yourself small when you stand.

It’s the best feeling when it works - and teaches you so much about your (and their) body language and timing. Enjoy!

 

[char.lotte]

Apologies if this has been mentioned above, but one important thing is to completely exaggerate your body cues to begin with - you can always refine them later!

For example, if you want the horse to walk beside you, your cue is to stand up really straight and walk on in a positive manner, if you want the horse to stand, you sink down into yourself and make yourself small when you stand.

It’s the best feeling when it works - and teaches you so much about your (and their) body language and timing. Enjoy!

This is very helpful, he doesn't ever move with much purpose so unsure how I will when trying to stay next to him lol!

 

[blitznbobs]

Don’t use small signals to start. Get the reaction you want. Horses aren’t mind readers. If you want the horse to move faster in walk - get it to trot on by

1) body language (you move faster)
Then
2 a consistent ‘go faster noise’ I use a kissing sound
Then
3) a bump on the halter (or 10) til speed is achieved. Then reward with voice.
But you have to get the reaction or there is nothing to reward and you have not taught the horse what you want.

 

[char.lotte]

Don’t use small signals to start. Get the reaction you want. Horses aren’t mind readers. If you want the horse to move faster in walk - get it to trot on by

1) body language (you move faster)
Then
2 a consistent ‘go faster noise’ I use a kissing sound
Then
3) a bump on the halter (or 10) til speed is achieved. Then reward with voice.
But you have to get the reaction or there is nothing to reward and you have not taught the horse what you want.

Thank you!

 

[canteron]

This is very helpful, he doesn't ever move with much purpose so unsure how I will when trying to stay next to him lol!

So one way to deal with this is when you want him walk faster, very obviously look behind you (you can add in a kissing sound later) then flick with whip. Soon just looking behind you should get him moving and then when established add in the kissing sound before you look behind you!

Horse are good at working out patterns of behaviour!

 

[char.lotte]

So one way to deal with this is when you want him walk faster, very obviously look behind you (you can add in a kissing sound later) then flick with whip. Soon just looking behind you should get him moving and then when established add in the kissing sound before you look behind you!

Horse are good at working out patterns of behaviour!

Thank you, think this is the most helpful advice yet as he really is, as much as I love him, a lazy and stubborn little coblet!