BBC news article about the dangers of Bute entering the human food chain

Polos Mum said:
Thanks, interesting as the articles (none of which are very scientific) seem to suggest one dose of bute 10 years ago would still be a problem as it never leaves the horses system (not sure how much of this is scaremongering tho!)
Click to expand...
This is what the dealer told me. A horse that has ever in it's life been given bute (even one dose) cannot go for human consumption.

ps. Does anyone know if this applies to the animal food chain?
 
Last edited:
dollymix said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21181499
Article can be found above.

Interesting reading, much of what was debated here last month when the whole Tesco burger story debate broke out.

I think it speaks volumes about the passport system and how it is open to abuse. It is far too easy for inscrupable people to obtain replacement or totally new passports to falsify records...making it easy for these horses to then be slaughtered for human consumption.
Click to expand...


I absolutely agree, I stated as much when the news hit, then was told that malpractice couldnt possibly occur:rolleyes: despite us ending up with beef burgers with a little bit of horse in and then the whole expose on malpractice and cruelty within one of our abbatoirs. I am always very careful where my meat comes from, but this still makes me want even more accountability.
 
kirstyl said:
I have never been asked for my horse's passport when he has been prescribed bute. In fact i have never been asked for any horses i have owned in the past either. Very interesting reading
Click to expand...

me neither, I wasn't even asked for the passport the last time my mare had a booster vaccination :confused: this passport system is a joke, far too easy for drugs like bute to get into the food chain. Plus, as already mentioned, far too easy for dodgy people to lie about horses. My friend bought a 15yo ID supposedly fit as a fiddle ex-eventer, turned out his passport had been faked and he was actually a 22yo with numerous amounts of health problems diagnosed a few weeks after purchase.
 
Pm every animal has a slightly different tag type. Pigs round flat tags on ears, sheep and goats have double ear tags like loops (though I refuse to tag goats under welfare reasons).each tag has a unique number. It has country, farm, individual number I think. So very obvious which is which. Every movement is tracked and can only keep on registered sites. You have to quarantine if moving with other animals etc. You can chip but have to ear tag in addition.

However, none of my goats are tagged as mentioned and I've been guilty of writing down the wrong tag number on a move (due to limits on moving over certain days etc) and no defra check has ever cared. Would be very easy to put wrong tag in an ear too. Have had a friend grilled over books and then they went to leave. Friend dragged defra person (in heels and skirt in heavy rain) through the muddy field rather than track, to check animals as they should. Defra were responsible for last f&m outbreak so aren't too hot on what their own rules ;)

The paperwork is a nightmare as will fill in 3 goats, 2 pigs and 5 sheep for a move. And defra will send back a form saying we've moved 2 goats 5 pigs and 3 sheep. They are useless in the main. Just I don't think there is much reason to lie about it in farm industry. We breed, we slaughter. B
Why lie about age, if it's expensive treatment for an issue it's cheaper to shoot etc. (anything we treat tends to end up a pet). I would imagine it's different meds too. I've never heard of Bute used on our farms.
 
Kallibear said:
Passports are an utter joke. There's 40+ agencies that issue them and none talk to each other. You could EASILY have 3 passports a horse if you wanted.

My horses have had all sorted of drugs and nothing has ever been written on the passport.

It's a shame as passports COULD work well. They could prevent sellers lying about age and previous illnesses if done strictly. It needs ONE issuer (e.g DEFRA) and needs to be enforced and policed by vets.
Click to expand...

Agreed! it's a complete and utter joke!
 
PJ - thanks, it sounds like anything tricky wouldn't get into food animals anyway as they probably aren't worth treating with anything expensive.
But it also sounds like there's nothing to stop people treating their animals then (within the restricted period) deciding they are ready for slaughter and rather than keep (and feed) them for a couple more months for the drugs to come out of their system they just send them and nobody would know any different - sounds like even more of an issue than just horses !!

We keep a few pigs and agree paperwork is a nightmare and (other than wormer) we've never had to give them any drugs so didn't know that was so slapdash as well!
 
As far as I know, the reason that a horse who has been given bute at any time in its life cannot (should not) enter the food chain is because there is no minimim residue level (MRL) set for bute in horse meat.

Without an MRL, there is no scientific data to quantify how long the residue of bute stays in the meat so therefore it is ruled out of the food chain completely.

For example, antiobiotics given to dairy cows have been subject to thorough testing to determine how long it takes for the antinbiotic to disappear from the cow's body. Once this time has lapsed after the last time the cow recieved the antibiotic, the milk is safe to drink.

So, for a particular antibiotic, the time could be 30 days. The milk will have no traces of the antibiotic by 30 days after it was last administered & is deemed to be safe to drink.

On our farm, treatment like liver fluke pour-on, has an MRL & a set number of days that need to lapse before the milk and/or meat is safe to enter the food chain. So the animal cannot legally go to slaughter until this time is up.

However, the EU has not tested for the length of time that bute will stay in a horse's system. It could be 3 days or 3 months- they don't know, so there is no minimum residue level (MRL) and therefore no guideline for the number of days that must elapse before the meat is safe to eat.

Without an MRL, the authorities cannot say when the meat is safe to eat.
Bute has a link to aplastic aneamia in children & can be fatal. Until there is testing & an MRL assigned by the EU regulatory bodies, all horses who have been given bute will not (should not) enter the human food chain.
 
Last edited:
Maxie - thanks for a really helpful scientific explanation - makes absolute sense given the volume of horses entering the food chain in the UK that they haven't done the testing.

You mention it's illegal to send animals to slaughter in the witholding period - any idea how this is policed? Do they test the meat or rely on people not breaking the law?
 
maxie said:
As far as I know, the reason that a horse who has been given bute at any time in its life cannot (should not) enter the food chain is because there is no minimim residue level (MRL) set for bute in horse meat.

Without an MRL, there is no scientific data to quantify how long the residue of bute stays in the meat so therefore it is ruled out of the food chain completely.

For example, antiobiotics given to dairy cows have been subject to thorough testing to determine how long it takes for the antinbiotic to disappear from the cow's body. Once this time has lapsed after the last time the cow recieved the antibiotic, the milk is safe to drink.

So, for a particular antibiotic, the time could be 30 days. The milk will have no traces of the antibiotic by 30 days after it was last administered & is deemed to be safe to drink.

On our farm, treatment like liver fluke pour-on, has an MRL & a set number of days that need to lapse before the milk and/or meat is safe to enter the food chain. So the animal cannot legally go to slaughter until this time is up.

However, the EU has not tested for the length of time that bute will stay in a horse's system. It could be 3 days or 3 months- they don't know, so there is no minimum residue level (MRL) and therefore no guideline for the number of days that must elapse before the meat is safe to eat.

Without an MRL, the authorities cannot say when the meat is safe to eat.
Bute has a link to aplastic aneamia in children & can be fatal. Until there is testing & an MRL assigned by the EU regultaory bodies, all horses who have been given bute will not (should not) enter the human food chain.
Click to expand...

And unfortunately because bute is a cheap per existing drug for animals and not a new expensive one for humans which drug companies can make millions out of, that very expensive testing is unlikely to happen and therefore the greed of a few food companies could threaten the availability of bute for horses in the uk.
 
There kind of is. You can get round it but it wouldn't really pay to. It's not messing round with a couple of animals and then claiming no knowledge. You could get away with gross misconduct in lots of businesses, but you wouldn't as the risk far outweighs the benefits same with farming.
However I expect plenty don't wait the full period. When we vaccinate (last lot I did was bluetongue a few years back) you get the injections and do yourself. I did in two lots but could easily have done later and noted as done on first day. So in all I'd be surprised if there wasn't a problem with it. But then there's probably worse in our water... Creeps out of thread.
 
Polos Mum said:
Maxie - thanks for a really helpful scientific explanation - makes absolute sense given the volume of horses entering the food chain in the UK that they haven't done the testing.

You mention it's illegal to send animals to slaughter in the witholding period - any idea how this is policed? Do they test the meat or rely on people not breaking the law?
Click to expand...

Again, as far as I know:

Milk is tested VERY often. Our milk is sampled every time it is collected from the farm. The bulk tank which carries milk from several farmers is also tested. If antibiotics, for example, are found in the bulk sample, the indvidual samples will be tested. The farmer who had antiobiotics in his tank will be fined & also have to pay fine for contaminating the entire bulk tank. All milk in the bulk tank will be dumped.
One of the reasons they are so stringent about antibiotics in milk is because most milk in Ireland (where I am) is made into yogurt/cheese/ other products. Antiobiotics interfere with the cheese making process and so cheese/yogurt cannot be made from antibiotic-laden milk.

For beef, I assume Food Safety Authority & Dept of Agriculture testing applies to carcases in the factory.
Penalties in this case could be applied to the farmer's payment from the factory but, if found by the Dept of Ag, the farmer's single farm payment directly at source ( Dublin will apply a percentage penalty to the farm payment the farmer receives from Brussals).

I would imagine criminal charges could also be brought if it was found to be a deliberate contamination of food chain.
 
PandorasJar said:
Ridiculous to us. But to someone who doesn't know the first thing about animals I'd imagine it would be quite a shock to know how lax monitoring it is.
Click to expand...

I agree I think the whole thing is that the unsuspecting public think animals are monitored ie big animals like horses....the word PASSPORT has been banded about but they do mean 0 as there is no monitoring and lets face it we cant deal with human immigration and lost a load of people waiting for human decisions on visas so how can we expect the lowly animal to even stand a chance. We are tied up in our own bureaucratic ineffective knots and have successive governments who just farm it out and blame departments for their ineffectiveness. Sorry for the pun..in lay terms its pass the buck!

Not my fault...always someone elses. But us responsible horse folks/vets included are aware of the passport issue we have been bleating on about it for years. But hey no one listens to us! we all knew it wouldnt work.
 
Several things about bute.
First, vets have not been told to sign passports if it is administered.
Second, a lot of places have bute to hand to administer as and when needed.
Thirdly, there is no withdrawal on bute so, any horse having been given bute at any time in its life should be out of the food chain.

Bet there are very few horses that have never had bute during the course of their lives.
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
And unfortunately because bute is a cheap per existing drug for animals and not a new expensive one for humans which drug companies can make millions out of, that very expensive testing is unlikely to happen and therefore the greed of a few food companies could threaten the availability of bute for horses in the uk.
Click to expand...

The testing has already been done, just not licensed. The FEI gives guidance for the withdrawal period for bute for dope testing purposes, how would they know without testing? ;)
 
Martlin: dope testing is done on blood or urine. Very easy to test and therefore work out a withdrawal period. I suspect the same has not been tested on muscle, fat and connective tissue (meat). It residue time is very different (much much longer) than for transient fluids like blood or urine.
 
Goldenstar said:
All my horses are signed out on their passports so they canot go for human use.
I would guess that the source of this powdered horse meat was probally the continent so the source could eastern Europe Russia or any where the horses may well be used up draught horses its an awful trade .
However the risk is some EU Offical decides the safest way to protect us is to ban the use of all such drugs on all horses with appalling consequences for riding horse welfare.
Click to expand...

And all of are's signed also :)
 
The testing on the continent is usually more stringent than the UK, but there always has been & always will be those that put profit first & cut corners :(
 
Uh-oh. Once years ago I was stuck at the yard with a blinding headache and no painkillers, so I took bute instead. Does that mean I'm no longer suitable for human consumption? :confused:
 
I haven't read the whole thing (article or thread) so apologies if this has been said before.

Perhaps it should be a rule that no horse with a duplicate passport or one that was clearly issued years after the horse was born should be allowed in the food chain. In other words, if it has a passport that clearly was not issued to it as a foal (and microchips should be able to tell that info) then it's not for human food at all.
Passport rules have been "in force" long enough now that people know they have to have foal passports done within six months of birth or before 31st December that year so no excuse. It should stop those with duplicate PPs that you can't be 100% about haven't had drugs at a stroke then.
 
Following on from Maesfen's post, perhaps if they bring in an upper age limit for horses destined to be for human consumption, then the issue will be reduced, as the animals should indeed have been passported by the end of the year it was born in, and chipped. However while there are so many different chip/reader companies, this is again a dodgy area. If there was a central passporting agency, with a chip that is readable by all scanners (or only one make of scanner) then this would be ended at a stroke! The biggest worry to me is that they will indeed remove bute as an allowed drug for horses, as the majority of people throughout the EU will have little interest in the painkillers which horses need, and far more interest in food perceived food saftey standards.
 
TBH, I never used bute before coming to the UK, relying instead on metacam or finadyne, so, from my experience, I would say that use of bute on he continent isn't as widespread as in UK.
Now, there is nowt wrong with metacam as an anti-inflammatory, and seeing as it is widely used in cattle, I would imagine all the withdrawal periods have already been established for it.
 
Maesfen said:
I haven't read the whole thing (article or thread) so apologies if this has been said before.

Perhaps it should be a rule that no horse with a duplicate passport or one that was clearly issued years after the horse was born should be allowed in the food chain. In other words, if it has a passport that clearly was not issued to it as a foal (and microchips should be able to tell that info) then it's not for human food at all.
Passport rules have been "in force" long enough now that people know they have to have foal passports done within six months of birth or before 31st December that year so no excuse. It should stop those with duplicate PPs that you can't be 100% about haven't had drugs at a stroke then.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what we do as a PIO. Any horse issued with a passport after the 31st December of the year of its birth automatically has its passport marked as not to enter the human food chain. Also horses imported from America for breeding/racing have passports issued and these are treated the same, as are duplicate passports.
 
martlin said:
TBH, I never used bute before coming to the UK, relying instead on metacam or finadyne, so, from my experience, I would say that use of bute on he continent isn't as widespread as in UK.
Now, there is nowt wrong with metacam as an anti-inflammatory, and seeing as it is widely used in cattle, I would imagine all the withdrawal periods have already been established for it.
Click to expand...

I may be wrong, but I would think that they would need to assess the withdrawal periods for horses, as they may not be the same for cattle.
 
YorksG, yes, they'll have needs to test specifically for horses. It would be worth the manufactures time though as once down the drug would decide the top of the cascade system and used a lot.

Metacam (meloxicam) is a very effective pain killer but many many times more expensive than bute, so rarely used in a country where we rarely send horses to slaughter, let alone breed for meat.
 
My mare was prescribed bute 3 years ago. I was never asked for my passport by my vet. I hadn't signed the 'not for human consumption' bit so to me the whole passport system is a bit of a joke.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top