BBC2 HORSE PEOPLE - PLEASE RING THE BBC AND COMPLAIN

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Slitting the throat would take too long and it is probably difficult to get through the thick coat and skin (incidently, it was noted earlier in the programme that their skin & fur is very thick).



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Well quite. Kosher slaughter (and Halal for that matter) was devised precisely because loss of consciousness is pretty well instantaneous. I am surprised that so many people support such a brutal ending to a life, and the rather strange arguments put up. Put your money where your mouth is, and if you think it is okay to slaughter a horse in this way, have your own one done the same when the time comes.

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Well said sooty
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I am not saying that the methods are painless or perfect; but can anyone think of a feasable method, that would not damage the herders income or livelihood?
I disagree wholely with peole saying that people should not being carrying on this way of life, and that people should not be taught about it. It's positive to educate people about different cultures and ways of life, and until you try to live in such a way, I feel it is impossible to judge the way tht people have to live.
 
"(guns still work in minus 35 don't you know)"


erm how do you know??????????- often in a situation at minus 35 degrees where you need to shoot something are you?
 
I have been trying to resist the urge to pull the 'I live there, I know' card, but truthfully, how many of you have tried to live and work in such conditions?

Also, guns do not function consistantly in such temps' so days they do, some days they don't. That's why there are fewer methods for euthanaisia...
 
I can't really see how the horse's skin and fur is that much thicker than that of other horses to be honest. If the people were skilled enough I am sure slitting the horse's throat would be quicker and less distressing for the animal.
 
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Slitting the throat would take too long and it is probably difficult to get through the thick coat and skin (incidently, it was noted earlier in the programme that their skin & fur is very thick).



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Well clearly that isn't true because they manage to stab the horse [through the hair and skin and muscle] in the heart don't they? The throat area would be much softer and easier to penetrate.

Obviously there is still the issue of how to secure the animal before doing so - but whether by strangulation or through lassooing/tripping the animal to get it lying down, there are certainly methods available.
 
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I can't really see how the horse's skin and fur is that much thicker than that other horses' to be honest. If the people were skilled enough I am sure slitting the horse's throat would be quicker and less distressing for the animal.

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Primary school science - biology - adaptations in plant and animals
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I can't really see how the horse's skin and fur is that much thicker than that other horses' to be honest. If the people were skilled enough I am sure slitting the horse's throat would be quicker and less distressing for the animal.

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Primary school science - biology - adaptations in plant and animals
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But they manage to skin the animal just fine with their knives, so why not slit its throat? Surely they can sharpen their knives?
 
Sureface area means its far easier to use a stabbing motion with a smaller blunt object, than to quickly and easily slit through sinew and muscle.

I wish I could remember the formula for pressure and force, allas, I never paid that much attention in physics or maths!
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I thought the programe was excellent. a captive bolt would have been better , if it didnt jam in the cold. Those people live in harmony with nature and are much better horse opeople than a lot of westerners IMO at least they dont truck their horses miles in lorries to slaughter.
 
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I can't really see how the horse's skin and fur is that much thicker than that other horses' to be honest. If the people were skilled enough I am sure slitting the horse's throat would be quicker and less distressing for the animal.

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Primary school science - biology - adaptations in plant and animals
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But they manage to skin the animal just fine with their knives, so why not slit its throat? Surely they can sharpen their knives?

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Its a fair point really, but it still begs the question of how to restain the animal, quickly and painlessly, in a way that allows access to the areas needed.
 
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Sureface area means its far easier to use a stabbing motion with a smaller blunt object, than to quickly and easily slit through sinew and muscle.

I wish I could remember the formula for pressure and force, allas, I never paid that much attention in physics or maths!
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Sorry, I don't buy it. As someone has said, they can easily skin the carcasses and slice the bones, and have knives sharp and strong enough to penetrate through the skin to stab the heart. I don't believe that it is impossible for them to have knives strong and sharp enough to effectively cut an animal's throat. Even if their skin is thicker, its not rhino hide.
 
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Slitting the throat would take too long and it is probably difficult to get through the thick coat and skin (incidently, it was noted earlier in the programme that their skin & fur is very thick).



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quoted from a post further up

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Well clearly that isn't true because they manage to stab the horse [through the hair and skin and muscle] in the heart don't they? The throat area would be much softer and easier to penetrate.

Obviously there is still the issue of how to secure the animal before doing so - but whether by strangulation or through lassooing/tripping the animal to get it lying down, there are certainly methods available.

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indeed and when stabbing said animal through the heart they are precise enough to not only get knife through the fur and muscles but cunning avoid hitting a rib, lung or the sternum instead (depending where you stab from).
 
Yes the general skin/fur may be tougher to cope with the elements but the skin around the jugular is in general softer as far as I am aware. I would imagine pigs and cows have pretty tough skin but they manage to kill them in this manner.

A lion/tiger brings down an animal - this is what these people did isn't it? One lion will grab the prey, zebra/buffalo etc buy the throat and will suffocate it - another will often also grasp the nose of the animal. In reality the men could do similar OR once they had the animal down i still do not see how / why they could not either slit it's throat (I am sure they would be able to get big enough and sharp enough knives).

 
At the risk of repeating myself and several others; surely the point here is that though the method is far from perfect - though maybe not all herders do it in the same way, there are regional variations - how would you propose to do it.

To slit it's throat you are going to have to restrain the horse in some manner. These are semi wild animals, who are going to struggle against any bounds, causing ropes to tighten around necks, causing asphyxiation. If you tie its legs and trip the horse, it's mouth is going to be free to bite and savage while the herders try to kill the animal.

It's a case of trying to find the balance - do you behave in a manner that is slightly more drawn out, but has the animal fully restrained and unable to cause itsrelf, other animals or people any harm, or do you allow it to savage and bite and kick while you attempt to kill it?

I do not fully condone the manner in which these horses are killed, and it's not particually pleasant to watch, but how else are these people going to earn enough money to live?

I need to leave in a minute, but I am finding this whole debate thrilling, and I enjoy seeing the range of views on the subject. On the whole, I think that it is comendable that the majority of people sharing thier views have done so in an eloquent manner.

x Tanya.
 
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I am not saying that the methods are painless or perfect; but can anyone think of a feasable method, that would not damage the herders income or livelihood?

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Yes, it's called a gun.

And there are makes of gun that will work in these sub zero tempartures.
 
Well said Magic 104 I saw a lioness suffocating a zebra foal on TV a few weeks ago & no-one complains about that. I didn't watch the mare being slaughtered (Shut my eyes until it was over) but the rest of the programme was brilliant. This is how these people live which was the whole point of the programme.
 
i watched this programme and made myself watch the killing, yes i was very upset, I am a horse lover but what happended to a horse in this country was far worse www.maggieslaw.co.uk, there are only 5561 signatures on the petition to increase sentencing for"people" who do this for fun! How many horse owners are there in the UK? Please go to the petition site and sign
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Maggies-Law/
If you are going to complain to the BBC then please also sign the petition, it finishes on the 29th April.
This programme was about way of life for these people, I wish they had a more humane way of killing them.
 
the difference is that the lion doesnt have a choice about te way it kills its prey. Humans, aleegedly more intelligent, do.
 
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Well said Magic 104 I saw a lioness suffocating a zebra foal on TV a few weeks ago & no-one complains about that.

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Is this really a sensible comparison though?

Probably not..........
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I watched it and had to turn away in parts and found the way they killed that poor mare very upsetting and barbaric
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However, that is how those people live and apparently it's the only way they know. Rather than complaining it would be more useful if someone taught them a more humane way of ending a horse's life. At best complaining would just stop such horrific slaughter being televised not stop it happening
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Well apparently the BBC should censor TV so that we don't have to face the real world. Whilst I can see its upsetting, I wouldn't stop them showing items like this, in fact I wish they'd show more on slaughter houses so people would stop buying £2 chicken and other cheap meat.

I am actually wondering if there is a good reason for not bleeding to death - i.e. huge puddle of blood and a pack of wolves nearby. Or by not bleeding it stops the meat from freezing before they can finish butchering the horse.

I also think with wolves around they'd want a gun if they could have access to them (pretty sure I would!!!), I suspect the Russian government is stopping this as they were quite peeved at being part of the Soviet Union....
 
I found it an utterly fascinating programme. A realistic, non-judgemental view of life in an environment completely alien to us all. Certainly the killing of the mare was not nice, however there was plenty of warning at the begining of the programme and by Alexandra Tolstoy in the run up to the scene.
It was the most compelling programme I have watched in a long time. Congratulations to the BBC for making a first rate documentary.
 
I was struck by the respect that they had for their horses. Doesn't anyone think that they've probably had a lot of time over the years to work out the safest and quickest way to kill them?
 
Absolutely shocked and appalled by the reactions of all these "horse lovers" here. The slaughter of those horses out there is barbaric and totally inhumane. How you justify it by saying it is their culture is beyond belief. There is NO excuse for any animal to die such a horrific death. I do have respect for other cultures, but not when it comes to such brutality. And how can you say the animals are respected and well cared for. Keeping almost wild horses penned up and killing their companions and babies in front of them does not constitute as caring or respectful in my books. Surely to goodness, they could tame them, so they could get close enough to deliver a quick and painless shot to the head. Welfare organisations could supply them with captive bolts or the type of gun vets use. Then educate them in marksmanship. I once watched an animal rescue programme (I think RSPCA: On the Front Line) and they had to dispatch of a deer with a badly broken leg. The RSPCA were unable to catch the animal themselves, so they brought in a deerstalker. He manged from over 50 metres away, to deliver a swift and clean bullet to the heart. This was when the animal was in a total state of panic, much like that poor mare.

The only thing I learned from this horrid programme was how to kill and butcher a horse. The BBC shall be receiving one more complaint.
 
Well over 2000 years ago Jewish kosher law, and following that, Halal, slaughtering law, very similar, were bought in to address this matter of humane slaughter. ONE cut only to the carotid artery is allowed.OVER 2000 years ago.If they could do it, why can't others.?
 
I'd promised myself I wasn't going to get involved but heres by tuppence worth -

When working with any animal which is semi feral you have to consider your own safety as well as that of the animals welfare. As woeisme said, these people have had generations of experience in the slaughter of their horses and I'm sure this will be their tried and tested method. Meowkiss has pointed out that shooting from a distance can lead to a huge amount of damage to a carcass and if that is part of their living they will want to maximise the amount they get back. It wasn't pretty watching, but this is a different culture to our own, they would probably view our methods as barbaric. Captive bolt isn't always the quick method a lot of people think it is, get it in the slightest wrong place and it doesn't work. The axe wasn't the most sophisticated method but I'd be pretty sure it did the job more accurately than some things I've seen.
 
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, these people have had generations of experience in the slaughter of their horses and I'm sure this will be their tried and tested method. Meowkiss has pointed out that shooting from a distance can lead to a huge amount of damage to a carcass and if that is part of their living they will want to maximise the amount they get back. It wasn't pretty watching, but this is a different culture to our own, they would probably view our methods as barbaric. Captive bolt isn't always the quick method a lot of people think it is, get it in the slightest wrong place and it doesn't work. The axe wasn't the most sophisticated method but I'd be pretty sure it did the job more accurately than some things I've seen.

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o come on strangulation, cracking the head with an axe 3 times and then stabbing in the heart is their best method, not to mention your point of not wrecking the skin ect!!! PLEASE!!!!
as has been said hunting in africa (bazillions of hecters) (these guys have a tiny corral in comparrison) or anywhere else of ferral animals is done with rifles/guns, and done without the suffering that was shown in this programme, it was far from instant!!!!
 
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