I can definitely ramp up the vitamin E. And probably should anyway for his liver.
Ah fair enough. In all the ones I have known, the ‘dead’ tail has come back to life following rehab. BBP never lifted his and carried it up, but when healthy it would still swing nicely through its length as he moved. My sisters horse is a great example. She didn’t have much movement in hers, xrayed showed very mild kissing spine and after a vast amount of careful work, she now has the most beautiful tail wiggle in the trot.
Always me coming back with my weird and not so wonderful issues! I haven’t even started to bore you with the palomino pony’s problem!
I reckon I should get charity status. 
). And for what it's worth, she doesn't often carry her tail but that seems common with Iberians.Ah gawd, she’d be a whole thread of her own! Basically really struggled with change of homes, the group of horses I have weren’t really comforting to her when she arrived, she wouldn’t eat and developed severe ulcers and associated behavioural issues. Turned very defensive aggressive. (I’ve never had an aggressive horse before so that’s been a bit of a shock). Would run through fences to get back to the yard where she felt safest. Healed the ulcers, got her more integrated with the other horses and the behaviours were reducing but still really unpleasant to be around, ear pinning and snapping if you touched her or got in her space, but also constantly wanting to get into your space and then trying to savage you for being too close to her. Generally miserable. I finally recognised that she was sleep deprived so went through two months where I have done nothing with her but encourage her to sleep (taken her into the arena and done sort of meditation sessions to keep her present and not thinking about other things and she would lie down and fall asleep with me each time). Behaviour got better and better.Sorry to hear about your pony, Boulty. I know you have gone above and beyond for him.
BBP, definitely not your weakness as a trainer. I am sure you'd get Hermosa all singing, all dancing much better than I have done, because I am pure rubbish. She's just a nice girl (EMS aside
The flinching at your touching his back end with straw or a flag or whatever is very strange. Low level chronic pain of some sort that he feels more when something touches it?
There's a Doctor Who episode where Matt Smith's 11th Doctor jumps on a horse, says something about it, and the owner's like, "What?" And he says, "I speak horse." Every time I watch it, I think, "Ooooooh, dude, have I got a job for you...."
Dare I ask what's happening with your lovely mare?
. Mine has his own issues, but hopefully resolvable, and is the most adorable little person I have ever met (feisty tho!).
I did say to my sister that I never thought I would see the day when I thought BBP was the more straightforward of my horses
One of our local vets has a bee in her bonnet about long thick tails, more so with cobs as they have been bred to have "artificially" heavy ones, but she has apparently had a lot of success with cutting out the underside of it and seeing almost immediate improvement biomechanically. So you keep the "top" length for flies and appearances but can reduce the weight of the tail by nearly half. Would be at least one easy thing to try with no downside!
www.pierreosteopathy.com
Might be worth a shot, it’s not like he’s going out showing or anything! His tail isn’t anything like a massive cob tail, but it is pretty thick and certainly long right now.
Thanks for the recommendation, he isn’t someone I have heard of.Just a thought, but I'm sure you are in his area, I'd get Pierre out. Pierre is the reason I can walk now, I went from looking at wheelchairs to now doing 50 miles a week with my dogs, and when Leo came back from loan broken and lame he was the one who fixed him. I hate woo woo stuff, but I dunno, Pierre has fixed things I'm sure he shouldnt have been able to, and hes told me things about my mare that he couldnt possibly have known. He made a huge red scar right down my forehead go away and I still dont know how he did that. He also treated my dog after the vets pretty much washed their hands of him and no one could work out what was going on. He knew as soon as he looked at him and worked with him to get him right.
Pierre.
Pierre Antoye specialises in Osteopathy to help improve the health of patients, who aren’t recovering very easily, from often painful skeletal problems such as back pain, sports injuries or pregnancy related issues. He helps them take charge of their own healing by kicking off the process and making
That’s really interesting how sensitive he is.
Really thoughtful post, thank you for taking the time. I had also thought about photosensitivity as it’s easy to dismiss when they are dark.That’s really interesting how sensitive he is.
One idea that struck me, especially as you’ve said he’s got liver issues, (cause undiagnosed yet) - is that he might be suffering from secondary UV photosensitivity, which can have touch sensitivity as a symptom.
Mine had this years ago and it took ages to connect the dots of symptoms cause and effect.
Liver illness means they cannot efficiently detox the photosensitive compounds that exist in some feeds, antibiotics, supplements - so they remain circulating in the blood at higher than normal levels, and when exposed to UV during daylight hours (even cloudy days) - their skin can feel more tender the longer the exposure to UV.
We see it most pronounced on white noses that are ‘sun-burnt’ - but that sore skin/ tingly/ itchy feeling sensitivity can exist all over their body, just below the skin, where blood flows, depending on severity of the liver condition and ingestion of photosensitive compounds, and the resultant inflammation it causes.
It is easy to see how these sensitivity issues can look like PSSM, the symptoms mimic both conditions.
Here’s a brief overview of P.S in horses (the website doesn’t go greatly in depth about the condition, and we can be left thinking from certain sites that this condition affects only light skin/hair horses, when it absolutely doesn’t. Liver disease and the resulting downstream issues that creates isn’t worse for one colour horse to another. It’s just impossible to visually see PS in darker horses.
Causes of Photosensitization in Horse
In a normal horse, the skin and fur act as a protective barrier against the elements. In cases of photosensitization, whether the cause is primary or secondary to liver damage, UV light reacts with factors in the horse’s bloodstream when they reach the skin that cause inflammation and damage. Ingestion or exposure to toxic plants, side effects from certain medications (sulfa drugs and tetracyclines), and liver damage are some of the causes of photosensitization in horses.
Causative Toxic Plants
Primary photosensitization due to toxic plants may include:
Secondary photosensitization due to toxic plants may include:
- Perennial ryegrass
- St. John’s Wort
- Buckwheat
In most of these cases, the toxic plant must be ingested. In some instances, as with certain clovers, contact with the plan during grazing is all that is needed for photosensitization to occur.
- Clover
- Alfalfa
- Blue green algae
- Pyrrolizidine alkaloid containing plants such as ragwort
- Moldy bermudagrass
Photosensitization in Horses
Dr. Kaela Schraer discusses everything you need to know about photosensitization in horses, including common symptoms and treatment options.www.petmd.com
(To clarify, it’s saying ‘toxic plants’ in the above list, but ryegrass, clover and alfalfa are not toxic per se for healthy horses (within reasonable dosages), but for a liver compromised horse, can be toxic due to the PS compounds)
Ryegrass is the common cause of ingestion as it’s included in most hay mixes. In a liver sensitive horse ryegrass needs to be cut out to prevent secondary PS symptoms relating to liver issues.
Once the liver is healed, ryegrass can be eaten again as the liver can flush out the PS compounds that grass contains.
If your paddock has clover and ryegrass in it, that’s a trickier issue to prevent them from having turnout.
You obviously have your turnout arrangements and keeping him in during daylight hours and out at night doesn’t sound possible within your freedom-based management system, understandably.
Another way to prevent UV exposure to test whether UV is a factor for his skin sensitivity, is if you can get a very lightweight UV blocking fly rug on him?
Do you find him more sensitive/ reactive at the end of the day, after 10+hours of UV exposure, compared to say, very first thing in the morning? If so, it could suggest minor PS.
Although if not, and he’s sensitive 24/7 - it may well be the PS compounds never detox to a sufficiently low level in his blood, to reduce skin sensitivity at any time.
Does he prefer to graze in the shade? Stay by tree shade grazing? Prefers staying in the shelters on very bright sunny days?
When mine went through this they both hated touch. Flinching and moving away. More so their main body areas. Head not so much. It went on for quite a while and I never linked it at the time to PS, until much much later when I had been through the whole liver health aspect of their health. Turning the corner to cutting out all possible moulds (haylage instead of hay) and their liver healed and were much more willing to be touched/groomed etc.
My gelding was far worse than the mare behaviourally and was weirdly explosive, bunny hopping, bukarooing, random running bursts, - no obvious triggers. Your video reminds me of him back in those liver ‘don’t touch me’ days. I now wonder with hindsight if the skin feeling inflamed and icky my boy liked running to get cool air running over him, cooling him.
If you have a massive fan in a shelter, it would be interesting if yours decides to visit it often for cooling.
If you can cut out ryegrass, clover, alfalfa feeds - chamomile too BTW is photosensitising and also aloe Vera - and try to reduce exposure to UV light with a rug - it would be interesting if after 2 weeks he’s still as sensitive.
Many folk would likely try a ‘calmer’ supplement on a reactive PS horse, only for it to contain chamomile and make them worse. So check supplements you’re giving for alfalfa chaff carrier powder, and chamomile.
Hopefully the PS angle is worth exploring, and eliminating that as a culprit as much as possible, as it’s easily induced without knowing with foods/supplements in a liver poorly horse.
Getting the liver healthy is the first port of call, and ultimately heals secondary PS automatically.
Oh no - not the shettie as well! That sounds a lot to deal with. Mystery illnesses in horses are the worst. Just thought I would post as my horses have mystery raised liver enzymes from time to time. Never got to the bottom of it. I have 3 horses: the oldest (15) is not affected by it; the next one down (9) raised enzymes 70s and the youngster (2) much higher 192. So whatever it is affects them more the younger they are. This has happened before and we've never got to the bottom of it. I had the youngster blood tested because she had hives for weeks. Having had raised GGT before, I am less panicky. There is no evidence of any liver damage, just raised enzymes. We have treated the 9 and 2 year old with milk thistle and liver tonic and they were pretty much back to normal within 3 weeks. I have had my grass tested to see if there is anything funny going on there and discussed it with an analyst (negative), and soil tested for heavy metals (negative). Searching for mycotoxins is a difficult game and seems unlikely to be definitive. So I am feeding them milk thistle as a permanent thing and will have 3 monthly tests on the youngster. I have discovered that you can have just GGT tested rather than a full blood panel and this is cheaper. Hope you get to the bottom of it. It's such a worry.Really thoughtful post, thank you for taking the time. I had also thought about photosensitivity as it’s easy to dismiss when they are dark.
He already has no rye and never has in his time with me, so I can cross that part off. We are careful to keep our hay rye free so would be minimal contamination if any. He was on Suregrow balancer but I stripped that out a few months ago and now he only gets a powdered one. We do have a little much clover and buttercup in our grazing, mostly white and purple clover, no alsike but farmer has just put in crimson clover in adjacent field so we may get more transferring over the next year.
He shows no sign of preference to shade, certainly not compared to the others, they all love a snooze in their shelters when it’s hot but generally equally happy out in the sun. No different at 5am to 6pm, tho as you say if he was highly sensitised that wouldn’t mean much.
Biopsy showed no link to ragwort or iron toxicity.
Best guess is mycotoxins but then you get in the endless cycle of which batch of hay/grass/soil do you test and how often/what times of year. His two highest spikes have been now and this time last summer (no bloods taken prior to that). So I have completely taken him off the grass, and off the hay from the same field we used both years.
Supplement wise for the liver he has been on hepalyte and then L94 (where I saw the biggest improvement in him overall but not the bloods in the end), plus milk thistle, mycosorb and vitamin E. He has also done the KPU protocol which is meant to link to liver, and is not a quick fix. He is now on a 4-6 week course of some drug whose name escapes me, so we should be retesting in another week or so. I think at that stage I may also ask for bloods for Lyme and vitamin E.
My little shettie is now also very lame, so vet may be coming out sooner
Thank you. I’m a little pragmatic having had liver issues with my now passed horse BBP at my previous yard. I did have his bloods done right before he died in May of last year and his GGT was normal. So it’s useful to have that marker of a normal blood reading at my current field not so long ago. But I’ve been giving him all the right stuff to support the liver for a year now and it’s still spiking.
He was on hepaltye for a few months which basically gives good levels of milk thistle, b vitamins and vitamin E. Then I switched to milk thistle, vitamin E and mycosorb through winter and then added L94 in about early Feb I think. Which he stayed on for months. And added B vitamins. And still got a big spike in June to 750.
Those readings you've given are quite high and a worry, aren't they. The only thing I could think of that was causing mine was that my field has field bindweed in it. Perhaps my older ones don't eat so much and the younger one does? Bindweed isn't listed as liver toxic but does cause gastrointestinal upset so I guess it could also affect the liver but no one has tested this? Hope changing your hay solves the problem. Have you tested your soil for heavy metals?
Not yet, trying to change one thing at a time. The drinking water is also on my list as it is roof water and after doing some research this morning, if the one he drinks from is an asbestos roof there is some evidence that asbestos fibres can cause liver issues is ingested. But the Arab mare drinks mainly from trough fed by runoff from water that is definitely not asbestos. The little ponies usually have tap water so that’s another ‘control’ of the small ponies vs the bigs (although…asbestos cement pipe work anyone?!)
Fingers crossed your little one has just tweaked something and will return to being sound quickly.Really thoughtful post, thank you for taking the time. I had also thought about photosensitivity as it’s easy to dismiss when they are dark.
He already has no rye and never has in his time with me, so I can cross that part off. We are careful to keep our hay rye free so would be minimal contamination if any. He was on Suregrow balancer but I stripped that out a few months ago and now he only gets a powdered one. We do have a little much clover and buttercup in our grazing, mostly white and purple clover, no alsike but farmer has just put in crimson clover in adjacent field so we may get more transferring over the next year.
He shows no sign of preference to shade, certainly not compared to the others, they all love a snooze in their shelters when it’s hot but generally equally happy out in the sun. No different at 5am to 6pm, tho as you say if he was highly sensitised that wouldn’t mean much.
Biopsy showed no link to ragwort or iron toxicity.
Best guess is mycotoxins but then you get in the endless cycle of which batch of hay/grass/soil do you test and how often/what times of year. His two highest spikes have been now and this time last summer (no bloods taken prior to that). So I have completely taken him off the grass, and off the hay from the same field we used both years.
Supplement wise for the liver he has been on hepalyte and then L94 (where I saw the biggest improvement in him overall but not the bloods in the end), plus milk thistle, mycosorb and vitamin E. He has also done the KPU protocol which is meant to link to liver, and is not a quick fix. He is now on a 4-6 week course of some drug whose name escapes me, so we should be retesting in another week or so. I think at that stage I may also ask for bloods for Lyme and vitamin E.
My little shettie is now also very lame, so vet may be coming out sooner
It’s a real challenge isn’t it. I moved from one yard with liver issues and now have them at the next one, so even a yard move isn’t guaranteed. And I can’t see that I could move them anywhere that would give them the quality of life they have now. Useful to know about the touch sensitivity on that horse, thank you.
Different feed suppliers too?