BD - have you ever complained?

What about your regional rep ? Will they not get involved, it is a sorry state of affairs, that must be why people are not entering BD classes
 
Classes are full in this region...so full they are having to find extra judges..who are volunteers and not paid by the way!
 
Whether someone is paid or not is not the issue and i don't think its relevant. You train to become a judge because I think you are passionate about the sport. If you volunteer to do something then you should place the same values as someone who is paid. So volunteer or not do me the justice of watching the test and giving it your full attention. If you don't like the way a horse goes then I can accept it; but I might not like it. You miss a whole movement then you have not given your full attention. Entry fees are not paid for voluntarily nor are my membership fees; I pay for a service and I should receive an acceptable level of service and an organisation that follows a complaints procedure not fobs me off. You are right we desperately need more venues in the south east - however I think this will only work if we have enough judges who people want to ride for...
 
Quite agreee Worried 1 whether you are paid or not is irrelevant. I judge Riding Horses and Hunters at unaffilliated shows and have done for years I dont get paid but I care passionately about getting it right. How are we every to maintain standards if this sort of judging is going to be accepted by the governing body.
 
Unfortunately, the venue dont help the situation.

The add in horses where you should have breaks. If several go wrong then the time is taken from breaks and often judges find themselves judging up to 40 horses with a 10minute break if they are lucky, which can take the same time as it takes to fly to New York! Judges want to give the same attention to the last horse as the first, but sometimes conditions make it very difficult to do so.

Refreshment are often hard to come buy and remember how many hours you are talking non stop, you get writers how have never written before, so you have to keep one eye on them and check the or fill in the gaps before you can do the summary, whilst keeping time, and trying to get riders attention for all of those who have lost their numbers on the way in way in (!!)

BD is a club and is run by members. Its is not a job and you are not paying for a service.

Many judges are now leaving the list due to the attitude of riders and soon there will be fewer competions to complain about.
 
I haven't complained about an individual test result, but I have complained once about the conduct of a centre during an Area Festival.
I wrote a letter to BD and received a response within 2 weeks (with the centre in copy) apologising and saying that changes would be made - they were the following year.
 
A club run by members... Really? Sorry but I'm fairly sure the people who work in the offices are paid a salary so there is no excuse for them not giving us their full attention. Losing the paperwork and not responding after 4 months is unacceptable. If it's a club run by members it needs to start listening to us. Judges might be leaving but so will members if they are not treated fairly.
The venue in question treats it's judges and writers very well. Breaks and refreshments are plentiful. I'm sure there are venues who don't do such a good job.*
If I'm paying a membership fee and entry fees then I expect a minimum service whether it's an organisation run by members or a corporate organisation run for profit.
 
B-B said:
Unfortunately, the venue dont help the situation.

The add in horses where you should have breaks. If several go wrong then the time is taken from breaks and often judges find themselves judging up to 40 horses with a 10minute break if they are lucky, which can take the same time as it takes to fly to New York! Judges want to give the same attention to the last horse as the first, but sometimes conditions make it very difficult to do so.

Refreshment are often hard to come buy and remember how many hours you are talking non stop, you get writers how have never written before, so you have to keep one eye on them and check the or fill in the gaps before you can do the summary, whilst keeping time, and trying to get riders attention for all of those who have lost their numbers on the way in way in (!!)

BD is a club and is run by members. Its is not a job and you are not paying for a service.

Many judges are now leaving the list due to the attitude of riders and soon there will be fewer competions to complain about.
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BD is a club, yes. But all successful clubs of reasonable size need to run like a business, or they will incur losses and be forced to close. Providing a service for the members is the first role of any club, sporting or otherwise.

If long sessions are causing an issue, then the judges should be taking it up BD, not competitors. BD in turn should take it up with the centres and place restrictions on numbers in classes/time allowed without a break.

I accept that judges are only human. As a regular writer I see how long stints/lack of breaks affects them. There is still a marked difference, however, between an inevitable small lapse of concentration, and missing an entire movement.
 
Judges are members too.

Judges do take it up with venues but there is little choice when you arrive on the day to find they have squeezed in a 'few'.

They know the judge wont refuse. Judges do understand what it takes to get there as many of them compete themselves.

Its a shame this sort of thing happens. The first point of contact should be with the judge. Ask to speak to them and make sure you bring your sheet along as its often hard to recognise someone on foot and their hat off. Most judges (probably not all) go to check the leader board at the end of a class, so this is another opportunity to speak to them.

Hopefully things can be resolved at that point, or at least you can see why they marked as they did. You may not agree but at least you may get to hear why....more than you would from BD.
 
B-B said:
Judges are members too.

Its a shame this sort of thing happens. The first point of contact should be with the judge. Ask to speak to them and make sure you bring your sheet along as its often hard to recognise someone on foot and their hat off. Most judges (probably not all) go to check the leader board at the end of a class, so this is another opportunity to speak to them.

Hopefully things can be resolved at that point, or at least you can see why they marked as they did. You may not agree but at least you may get to hear why....more than you would from BD.
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I did approach the judge after the class had finished, at first they told me they had judged lots of people and were they to know who my husband was. I pointed out he was the only man in the class! Next they said they could only judge what see, I pointed out the movement had been corrected and was at least 5 seconds in length. Again they said they can only judge what they see so I asked what they were doing when that movement was ridden. I asked if they wanted to watch the video and they declined. They were very rude, abrupt and unapproachable, in fact they carried on talking as they walked away to their car.

I will do my best to ensure we do not ride under this judge again, I cannot afford to waste money on entries and fuel for someone not to give their undivided attention for length of the test.

As for BD; I hope they sit up and take note and treat me and the owner with the courtesy and attention we deserve, people like our owners, riders like my husband and myself make up the vast majority of this body's income. Without people like us there is no body and no sport.
 
You dont have a competition without a judge. And as said before many are standing down due to competitors.

Hopefully BD will be able to resolve this for you. Its a pity this judge didnt take the opportunity to do the same.
 
Worried1 said:
A club run by members... Really? Sorry but I'm fairly sure the people who work in the offices are paid a salary so there is no excuse for them not giving us their full attention. Losing the paperwork and not responding after 4 months is unacceptable. If it's a club run by members it needs to start listening to us. Judges might be leaving but so will members if they are not treated fairly.
The venue in question treats it's judges and writers very well. Breaks and refreshments are plentiful. I'm sure there are venues who don't do such a good job.*
If I'm paying a membership fee and entry fees then I expect a minimum service whether it's an organisation run by members or a corporate organisation run for profit.
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The people who run BD ARE PAID. I know our Area Rep is because she told me so. Also this particular venue is extremely well run and the people who run these shows are very competent and I understand very supportive of this particular case.
 
B-B said:
You dont have a competition without a judge. And as said before many are standing down due to competitors.

Hopefully BD will be able to resolve this for you. Its a pity this judge didnt take the opportunity to do the same.
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You dont have a competition without competitors either.

Do I note a bit of back peddling here!!!
 
Not at all onemoretime. Its useful to remember that judges are also members, competitors and are NOT paid.

So there is the question of accountability. If someone is a volunteer and not being paid but as they say, judging what they see? BD can recommend training but no one is going to get sacked.

Venues do actually struggle to find judges....especially good ones. Some very good ones have thrown the towel in after reading forums. Sad that the wrong ones are going.

You have a volunteer sitting at C!
 
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BD is a club and is run by members. Its is not a job and you are not paying for a service.
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What rubbish.

BD is a professional National Federation. There may be many, many volunteers involved, but that is the same for any sport - and for most Federations. And also applies to the FEI who, similarly to BD, have a central core of paid office staff, but committees made up of expenses only volunteers.

Having said that - Worried1 - what is it you want to happen? From what I know about the BD complaints procedure, once a complaint against a judge has been made, the instigator will not hear futher unless more information is needed. What happens between BD and the judge - be that closer mentoring, retraining or anything else, is between BD and the judge.
 
B-B said:
Not at all onemoretime. Its useful to remember that judges are also members, competitors and are NOT paid.

So there is the question of accountability. If someone is a volunteer and not being paid but as they say, judging what they see? BD can recommend training but no one is going to get sacked.

Venues do actually struggle to find judges....especially good ones. Some very good ones have thrown the towel in after reading forums. Sad that the wrong ones are going.

You have a volunteer sitting at C!
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I am fully aware that judges are not salaried but they do get expenses and some charge quite a bit of "expenses". I think BD need to recommend further training in this particular case, which incidentially I was present at and fully aware of what went on.

On another note, we have some excellent judges in our area who have been judging for some considerable time I am not aware of any of them throwing the towel in.
 
Sagittarius said:
What rubbish.

BD is a professional National Federation. There may be many, many volunteers involved, but that is the same for any sport - and for most Federations. And also applies to the FEI who, similarly to BD, have a central core of paid office staff, but committees made up of expenses only volunteers.

Having said that - Worried1 - what is it you want to happen? From what I know about the BD complaints procedure, once a complaint against a judge has been made, the instigator will not hear futher unless more information is needed. What happens between BD and the judge - be that closer mentoring, retraining or anything else, is between BD and the judge.
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I want an acknowledgement that the complaint has been acknowledged, instead of fobbing me off after 4 months with: "The paperwork has been lost so here is your money back, stop wasting our time."

I also want BD to admit that the test was not judged fairly and upheld our complaint. I along most have the odd grumble about judges but in private, I have never ever publicly been drawn into what the BD forum call 'judge bashing'.

However in this case I feel very disappointed, over not only the judge's failure but also BD's treatment of us to date with the exception last week of Paul Graham, who took the time and trouble to listen patiently and offer an alternative complaints procedure which we have followed up.
 
Sagittarius said:
What rubbish.

.
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Not rubbish at all. Im a judge, Im not paid, my expenses dont cover anything! Even at the new rate of 45p a mile....the hours driving, judging and driving home again...day gone. In the US that would equate to $$$!!!

Judges would like to be paid and this would make them more accountable. As it is, they are 'just' volunteers. If BD decide they can be paid who will pay...the competitor? What will entry fees then be?

I am aware of a number of judges who will no longer judge and those who have left the list all together....from other areas as well as my own.

Why not become a judge and make a difference?
 
Paul Graham, who took the time and trouble to listen patiently and offer an alternative complaints procedure which we have followed up.
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I think Paul is relatively new and has strengthened the managerial team considerably. With just a CEO and Deputy previously, much was left to the administrative girls in the office. Isn't there a new Marketing Manager now too?

Hopefully you'll get better reassurance that your complaint will be taken seriously - but I doubt that you'll actively hear the result.

B-B, if judges are to be paid, of course it will be the competitors who pay. Where else will the money come from?
 
Can i ask then, what does BD do with all our membership fees ? If they dont pay judges ? iv just gone to register as a riding club member £72.00 for 6 months, thats more than 10.00 per month, plus the entries, its a lot of money.

Maybe judges need to make a stand, maybe if BD got rid of the fancy offices, fancy web site, and carl hester videos they could pay the judges. Do we need regional reps ? I never see them at shows, only at regionals and then they are not mixing with competitors,they are sitting on the judges tables.

I know of a judge in our area, who charges expenses to the centre of 20.00 per hour and she gets it, or she does not judge..good on her for making a stand.

I totally agree judges do need to be paid
 
nokia said:
Can i ask then, what does BD do with all our membership fees ? If they dont pay judges ? iv just gone to register as a riding club member £72.00 for 6 months, thats more than 10.00 per month, plus the entries, its a lot of money.

Maybe judges need to make a stand, maybe if BD got rid of the fancy offices, fancy web site, and carl hester videos they could pay the judges. Do we need regional reps ? I never see them at shows, only at regionals and then they are not mixing with competitors,they are sitting on the judges tables.

I know of a judge in our area, who charges expenses to the centre of 20.00 per hour and she gets it, or she does not judge..good on her for making a stand.

I totally agree judges do need to be paid
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I appreciate that the membership fee is high, however they will get a percentage of the entry fee (I believe it's a couple of pounds per entry) the remainder going to the venue.
With regard to regional reps, we frequently see ours at various shows, maybe not every show we go to but then again we don't go to every show within the region so she could be at other area's some of the weeks.
If I contact the area rep i do normally get a reply from her with a day, the exception being when she is on holiday.
Maybe we're a bit more lucky in our region.

I hope the OP gets a satisfactory response to the complaint, if we are being charged to lodge a complaint then we should expect a response within a reasonable amount of time.
 
I have complained complete with altered test sheet and witness statements.

I was told that 1/ I would not be informed of the outcome and 2/ the judge in question would not be told who made the complaint.

As said judge is still making personal comments on my sheets I think that nowt was done and she knows who made the complaint.

I have just renewed my BD membership and now wish that I had put it toward my hunt subs.

Paddy
 
Thanks Paddy, we are currently still 4 months after initial complaint trying to get them to even bother to deal with it. The gulf is widening between 'them' and 'us' or at least that is how it seems...

I'm sorry to hear that you are still experiencing unprofessionalism, there's a lot to be said for hunting over dressage; at least you can drink in the job legitimately ;)
 
Naryafluffy said:
I appreciate that the membership fee is high, however they will get a percentage of the entry fee (I believe it's a couple of pounds per entry) the remainder going to the venue.
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Will they? A £1 per horse would at least be an increase!

When will this start then?
 
nokia said:
Can i ask then, what does BD do with all our membership fees ? If they dont pay judges ? iv just gone to register as a riding club member £72.00 for 6 months, thats more than 10.00 per month, plus the entries, its a lot of money.

Maybe judges need to make a stand, maybe if BD got rid of the fancy offices, fancy web site, and carl hester videos they could pay the judges. Do we need regional reps ? I never see them at shows, only at regionals and then they are not mixing with competitors,they are sitting on the judges tables.

I know of a judge in our area, who charges expenses to the centre of 20.00 per hour and she gets it, or she does not judge..good on her for making a stand.

I totally agree judges do need to be paid
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Judges can charge a fee if they wish and this would then be subject to tax and needs to be agreed with organisers at the point of booking.

Most judges dont and some dont even claim fees if its a small class and local.

£20 would be nice and make the 4+hrs sat immobile in a car in the coming freezing months a little easier to bare....but Im not sure the riders will appreciate the higher entry fees or membership - wherever the money will come from.

BD are actually looking at paying judges but when and how ?????
 
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