BD Judges, are they judging fairly?

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jenz87

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I was wondering what everyones thoughts are on BD judges these days, BD are going all out to say that BD is for everyone of all shapes and sizes, but our experiences are simply the opposite....

We are competing a little irish thoroughbed, he is very plain looking but is immaculately schooled, although can be a bit of a devil when he wants to be. He simply does not have "the wow factor" and cannot physically, and will never, be able to have the same movements as some of the prancy, fancy dressage horses.

In an ideal world, every horse should be judged on its own capabilities. This horse is working his bottom off, with a fabulous rider, but its like when he goes up the centre line the judges switch off. He is working so hard and does the movements immacualtely, but still only getting average marks of a 5 or a 6. Yet a horse of lesser schooling, but more looks gets 7 & 8's thrown at them.

Any thoughts on this, as BD are trying to bring in people of all walks of life, but this is simply not realistic at the moment.
Actually thinking of unaffliating him as it seems to be a waste of our time and money as we will NEVER get him going in the way that the winning horses are doing, and he is trying his bottom off but is just a plain old jane!!

:( thoughts, anyone had any different experiences.

(The horse is currently competing BD Elementary and is ridden by a sucessful trainer, who has worked wonders with him, he is a fabulous horse, but is just a small thoroughbred and is getting slated :( )
 
This is a good topic to discuss.

Personally I think that "Affiliated Dressage" has turned into a competition about the whole package and is not just about training. I guess the judges would say that a horse with better, flashy paces fits the "look" and it wouldn't matter how well trained a plainer horse is, it would never beat Mr. Flashy, even though Mr. Flashy might not work as well.
 
Ideally it should be marked on the horses way of going, ie in its own capabilities, as this horse is a very plain horse, with a neck basically on the wrong way! He is never ever going to go like as you say mr. flashy, its biologically, physically whatever impossible. Yet he can tootle around the test, with little to no effort or accuracy and clean up, with a rider bobbling about on top. Seen it happen week in, week out and its so disheartening for all of us.

Not only BD though, as unaffiliated is the same, last week went to an unaffiliated with my mare, did a better test than our more flashy dressage horse, but got a worse mark. Her comment for the flashy horse was, "such a super attractive horse!!!"...

Basically, we should all go buy pretty horses and not bother to learn to ride or school anymore... disappointing!
 
i know exactly what you mean!

However, our solution is to compete at a higher level (horse is now doing mediums) in the hope that he can pick up more marks for performing all the movements correctly and accurately, rather than just look pretty and flashy (which he can't as he's only a diddy :) ) doing a series of 20m circles...
 
As someone who recently lodged a formal complaint about a recent test which, in my opinion diabolically judged I would go as far as to say... we are seeing massive inconsistencies with judging at the moment!
 
I'm afraid I'm going to say the opposite. I have an Irish chap (in my siggi), we used to event but now just BD. He is not a flashy mover, but he is correctly schooled and we perform accurate tests (apart from the odd spook ;) )!! He doesn't really have a medium trot, tends to scuttle along, but his basic paces are good. We've qualified for summer regs at ele restricted this year, and last year came 10th at the regionals (shocked was an understatement!), he tends to get high 60's at ele. We've also started going out at medium, albeit at training level as it's such a big jump up, and got reasonable marks so far.
We've also ridden at the home international and didnt disgrace ourselves!
Maybe I'm just lucky that the judges I come across judge us for what we are and don't penalise because he's not a big posh warmblood???
Don't give up!! Why don't you try and get a lesson with a trainer who is also a reasonably listed judge, and get some feedback? My region offer this and it's invaluable?
What part of the country are you from?
 
Sneedy thanks for your comment, its interesting to hear, what region are you in?
Can you post a pic of him doing dressage as its a very interesting point :)
Quite interested to know what your average mark is for your medium's if you say that theyre not that good, you must be doing a stonking test if if you loose on them!

No criticism to you intended, its all just very interesting :) So thank you for your post!
 
I once was told that a small horse will never beat a big warmblood, simply because of the 'pony strides v big free moving types'! Even when a big horse is being disabediant (sp!), his general 'look' will impress more. I find it very sad.
One of a few reasons why I am now a happy hacker/local fun show person!!

Maybe they (BD) should hold classes for certain types, rather than open field... that may open up more to the 'non dressage bred types'? Would seem a more enjoyable fairer test perhaps?
 
I think our marks have been around the 62/63% mark at medium, so still plenty of room for improvement ;)!!!
I'm in the central BD region. Will PM you a link to a vid of one of my ele tests, don't really want to put it on here, not tough enough to have it dissected by the world ;)!!!!
 
I was once told by a BD judge that I was "very brave to be even attempting a test at this level on something like that, it can never perform at the level of the big moving horses" I was doing an unafil elementary on my Welsh Sec C, I agree that she didn't have huge expressive paces like a warmblood, but she was true & correct, went in self carriage & performed all the movements, & was actually working well above elementary at home.

I have now stopped all dressage & joined BS.
 
I'm not trying to be horrid, but if your marks are similar at affiliated and unaffiliated, and you're getting similar responses from judges perhaps the horse isn't performing as well as you think? We all tend to wear rose tinted glasses when it come to our own horses after all!

There will always be some differences between judges opinions, their preference will always have some baring on the marks...but thats the trouble ours is a subjective sport.

I don't have a big flashy warmblood, I have a 15hh Welsh Cob he is correctly schooled and very consistent in his way of going our marks/placings reflect this. We are in the South West so not short on tough competition!
 
jenz87 said:
I was wondering what everyones thoughts are on BD judges these days, BD are going all out to say that BD is for everyone of all shapes and sizes, but our experiences are simply the opposite....

We are competing a little irish thoroughbed, he is very plain looking but is immaculately schooled, although can be a bit of a devil when he wants to be. He simply does not have "the wow factor" and cannot physically, and will never, be able to have the same movements as some of the prancy, fancy dressage horses.

In an ideal world, every horse should be judged on its own capabilities. This horse is working his bottom off, with a fabulous rider, but its like when he goes up the centre line the judges switch off. He is working so hard and does the movements immacualtely, but still only getting average marks of a 5 or a 6. Yet a horse of lesser schooling, but more looks gets 7 & 8's thrown at them.

Any thoughts on this, as BD are trying to bring in people of all walks of life, but this is simply not realistic at the moment.
Actually thinking of unaffliating him as it seems to be a waste of our time and money as we will NEVER get him going in the way that the winning horses are doing, and he is trying his bottom off but is just a plain old jane!!

:( thoughts, anyone had any different experiences.

(The horse is currently competing BD Elementary and is ridden by a sucessful trainer, who has worked wonders with him, he is a fabulous horse, but is just a small thoroughbred and is getting slated :( )
Click to expand...

Totally agree with you! Although looks obviously creates a better impression, I think these judges have to stop turning dressage into a beauty contest... Dressage is about correct schooling, not who can buy the best breeding!!
 
Sneedy, thank you so much for your lovely videos, he is a lovely looking horse!
Can i say, his natural way of going, is far more elevated and larger striding than, the 15.3hh little thoroughbred cross connemara we are talking about. His neck is placed on to rise very nicely out of his withers, in an uphill way, to impress those judges. i agree, he is not flashy in his movement, but he is close enough to give the "correct" impression. Please dont take that in any criticism, as he is a lovely sort.
Im just talking about a very different type of animal with a much shorter stride, and flatter way of going, who started life with a U neck which doesnt rise at all.It is now a normal neck, but it will never look like your horse, his confirmation simply will not allow him to look "correct". He does hold himself in the frame that his body will allow, and work from behind, but it just simply isnt the picture the dressage judges would like.

PIC_0246.JPG

That picture was a few months ago, he is more uphill and more supple than that now, but his marks are showing no improvement.
 
From my experience at affiliated BD, judges tend to have a 'type' of horse they prefer and judge them higher than others which they shouldn't they should be judging each horse as an individual. Not all judges but a lot.
A couple of times i've been out at affiliated novice i've had a 10% diff in scores on the same day (had a 71% first test and 61% second test, which actually felt loads better!) with two diff judges who i come under quite often as round here as the venues seem to use the same judges!!
Every time I'm under that first judge we usually score 70% + but under that second judge were usually mid to low sixties. Has happened that many times I can almost say what sort of score I get before even seeing it! :rolleyes:

Saying that I work for a list 3 affiliated judge and she always maintains that she does judge each individual horse that comes in to the arena on its way of going and accuracy of the test and doesn't mark it higher because its a big flashy warmblood or known name for that matter.
Usually tells me all about the classes she judges and has had 'names' with flashy horses lower than other people who have simply ridden a better test!

I know how deflating it is to be slated i've been there but there really is hope so don't give up!! :)
 
It took me a long time to find his 'stride', he's very good at mincing around given half a chance!! I did have problems with his neck to begin with, he'd find it much easier just to hold himself in an 'outline' and not let go, but he's now learnt to stretch which has helped his whole body supply up.

I suppose it depends how disheartened you feel, but I really think if you persevere you'll get there, your horse doesn't look a freak of nature or incapable from the pic, and your jockey looks very good!

Its taken me 3yrs to get to where we are and I look back at some of our early vids and I cringe ;)!!!

Forgot to say my chap is 16.1hh, so dwarfed by the warmbloods in the warm up.....I find a brisk 'Irish' medium canter towards them gets them out of the way ;)!!!!
 
i'm not a dressage expert in any way shape or form- in fact i don't like dressage partly because it is so subjective and i get terribly confused about what i should be doing....but i honestly do think that the majority of judges do try to judge fairly. could it be that because your horse has these conformational issues he is losing marks on every movement in the test because its not as good as it could be? whereas the bigger/flashier WB types are often more technically correct in their way of going even if they make mistakes in terms of accuracy? i was having a chat with my trainer about tests and pondering why i always get my best score when i think its gone badly and he was saying that usually you make mistakes when you are trying a bit harder and so the test overall is better but with a few major problems as opposed to quietly/accurate but no 'wow' factor at all... i don't really know what i'm saying. maybe have some training with a highly listed judge and see what they have to say?
 
Sneedy, you made us laugh, our irish doesnt flinch taking on the ponces in the warm up either!
I think your underestimating yourself, you have a lovely horse and you look like a great team, so keep up the good work :D
 
Yes and no.

I write for judges, usually the affiliated prelim/novice/elementary classes, so I get a real mixture.

Some are warmblood based, some are not. There's one in my area positively potty for natives.

I think you just need to take the rough with the smooth.
 
Thank you jenz87, you're too kind :o......and you're making me blush!!!! He is the most frustrating horse, random spooks are always thrown in for good measure! If I was brave I'd send you a vid of us 3yrs ago, but it makes me cringe even thinking of it :eek:!!

Honestly, keep going, you WILL get there!!!!!
 
MissSbird, thanks for your interesting comments, i assume there are good and bad as in all walks of life, just we havent seen much of the smooth around here!!! Maybe we need to venture futher afield for a different opinion! :P

Sneedy, youre welome, and well done you for all the hard work youve put in :)
 
I do agree that there are judges that like or dislike certain horses and for that reason i like to really vary venue and judges<< i would not wanna be constantly seeing the same judge that loved my horse and equally a judge that didnt!!!! if your getting the same results from a variety of judges at varing venues doesnt it mean that maybe the horse has areas of improvement???? Are the comments indicative of how he goes or are they way off!! Do you read your sheet and think " fair comment" or " no way was that how it was?" If the latter then i would vid the tests and send them to BD with the reasons you feel unfairly marked/judged!! I do believe we work on training and up through the scales and evey horse has room for improvement??
 
Pinktiger, i agree, that some people will have rose tinted glasses for their horse.
However, i feel that at the moment, our marks are varying dramatically from judge to judge, and very inconsistent in their markings. We do a better test, and get worse marks.
We realise he is not perfect and has alot of room for improvement, but when you are going out and competing against horses that are doing a lesser level of test, with riders that cannot ride, and still coming below them all, its a bit degrading. The rider in question is a very knowledgable, and practiced trainer, who has being schooling horses for approx 35 years, so is in no way living in a dream world about said horse.

Anyway i was mainly asking what were other peoples oppinions, as im sure there are just as many good judges out there, i just feel its a shame that so many people are being put off BD and affiliating because your horse is not the preconceved "type" sometimes...not all the time!

We took my own 14.1hh connemara out last month, and she placed last, and got a worse score than previously, for a better test than her own the week before that, and from our other horse that placed higher! other "prettier" horse got higher marks and a comment along the lines of "a super attractive horse!!"...

Im not being a moaning minnie, its just simply a friendly discussion,as i feel its such a shame, when bd themselves are trying to promote dressage as a sport for all sorts of horses and riders :)
 
Writing for a dressage judge or two will let you see the test from the judges view and give you an insight into what a judge is seeing and looking for.

Should also get you a few brownie points from the organiser for volunteering to write..

A small word of caution, watching 30 or so tests can be either a wonderful experience, seldom happens, or more commonly a range from good to barely adequate.
 
Whilst I completely agree dressage should be marked on the 'correctness' I did once hear a metaphor....

'If Dawn French learns swan lake, and she does every movement correctly and precisely... she still wont look as good as Darcy Bussel.....'

and this explains why my reasonably well schooled, supple, obedient Irish coblet always loses to my quite unschooled, stiff but beautiful TB in dressage. (and why I dislike dressage and prefer SJ/Eventing!)
 
I have found the opposite- all of the judges I have ridden before have given me very nice marks (so far! ;)) on my little tb.

She is accurate and correct but certainly doesn't have flash or huge strides.

Her medium trot is akin to a roadrunner at the moment and as she is croup high she really can struggle to sit with enough weight behind.

However, she hasn't scored under 70% for a long time and won her first Novice last weekend with 72%.

Whether she will keep scoring like this I don't know, but I do know that so far, she has beaten a lot of flashy horses.

Obviously she is only at the lower levels at the moment and whether she can maintain high scores as she goes through the levels I don't know but I am willing to give it a shot! :)

Out of interest OP, what scores was your horse getting at Prelim/Novice and what do the comments on his current sheets say?
 
Interesting !


I ride a 14.1 connie, we have just started doing elementary..........my marks vary from 54% to 64% depending on the judge !

I know that we don't have a flashy trot, but he is very accurate......................I don't think I will ever understand judges but we keep plugging away at it.




Jane
 
Ive not read the replies, however i write for BD judges on a regular basis. Before i started writing i was competing regularly and often came away thinking i had been ''unfairly'' marked and that judges opinion towards other horses was biased etc.

I have come to find that since writing this is not the case - I have learnt so much about what the judge looks for. Obviously the horse with the whole picture - ie all the scales of training - is going to score more highly than a horse that just does a nice ''neat'' test. So many people ride around thinking their horse looks ''nice'' which in all fairness a lot do, but nice and neat dosent win rosettes unfortunately. The horse needs to be supple, expressive, with a good ground covering stride and working up into the bridle. I see very few at novice/elementary level that actually work in an upwards frame, most people come into a test riding their horses almost long and low, with hardly any impulsion at all.

Obviously when someone then comes in a horse with elevated movement from behind then this horse is going to score more.

OP - You say your horse is getting 5/6s, if this is the case then there must be something wrong as to get a 5 is not really satisfactory in a judges eyes. It would be interesting to see a video of a test if you have one as its hard to tell whether the person who rides your horse is being unfairly judged or not just by what you write.
 
I have a 14hh cobby native type who although not flashy at all tries his little socks off and is correctly trained (if I do say so myself ;)) We have been competing BD at prelim and generally score in the mid to high 60s and have always come home with a rossie (against much more flashy warmblood types). We are now moving up to Novice and from the 2 affiliated tests we have done, have come away with a 2nd and a 3rd and 7 points - along with some lovely encouraging comments! :D So no, in my experience we have been judged fairly and although I will admit my heart used to sink when I saw all those 'proper' dressage horses in the warm up I now don't let it bother me as I know we can hold our own :D Obviously there are differences in scores dependant on judges and I don't always agree with everything (;)) but on the whole I have been very happy with the comments I have received and they have been very fair :)
 
So far I would say our marks have been fair at BD, I have a 'flashy' horse and we always get comments on how nice she is... but we are in very early stages, competing at prelim and novice and as nice as she looks she isn't performing anywhere near as well as she could, we have many faults and we are marked down for this.

So I would say most judging has been fair, we are always beaten by less flashy horses but if they are performing better then that's fair.

Only comment I will say, is that at the weekend we did our best test ever, I was beaming yet marks were pretty low - I was totally confused, but found out that had different judge for second test and they were only just qualified to judge at that level, so were they being harsh or having just qualified were they being accurate?

Do judges get more lenient as time goes by?
 
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