BD Legal Calmer?

[tallyho!]

I think sometimes horses do need a little something to help the nerves and I think magnesium is a good way if it works. If you're feed contains enough Mg already then it may be the uptake pathway that needs looking at i.e. the gut. There may something you're feeding that's cancelling it out.

From my experience in Mg supplementation, it's better to test in urine as it's so readily excreted by the kidneys and since there is very little Mg in the serum, it's hard to do a blood profile and I think most vets will do urine tests. I think it's called an EMg? Can't remember but it does accurately calculate levels of Mg according to the NRC.

I would look to profile the diet as a whole though as if you don't address that, then it becomes a vicious cycle. I was supplementing and then changed diets and we haven't really had an issue, not even with a sudden flush of grass.

 

[popsdosh]

Is that the same hype that sucks in the cattle farmers who have to supplement as UK grazing is very often deficient in magnesium? I'm glad my horse seems to have been sucked in by the hype as well, because when the grass flushes, if he doesnt get it, hes an idiot.

Thats how I make my living with cattle lol. Youj have to very carefully supplement magnesium as most is stored in the skeletal system and most acute hypomag attacks are due to the animal not being able to mobilise that magnesium when the forage ie lush grass is low in magnesium. The problem is made worse if supplementation takes place ahead of the need as the bodies ability to mobilise the magnesium is impaired through not being needed. I do wonder how people managed all these difficult horses that require calmers before they were available! Hence why I say the perceived need is brought about by the advertising. Also my point is if you suspect your horse is short of magnesium why do people spend huge amounts on these supplements when for 3p/day you can give them all they need.
Logic says if a magnesium calmer( single use) works on your horse you may have a magnesium deficiency that you are not dealing with in the correct way.

 

[spookypony]

I think the FEI wording is very safe (for them) and allows them a lot of leeway. Theoretically, a magnesium-based calmer should only work if there is an underlying deficiency, in which case it's not really "doping" in the generally-understood sense---but their wording makes it sound, to me, that even if something isn't actually performance-enhancing, or if something is addressing a deficiency, it could be regarded as "doping" so long as the person giving the substance believes that it would be performance-enhancing.

It seems to me that if you believe that your horse's nerves at competitions could be helped by magnesium-based calmers, you implicitly believe that he might be suffering from a deficiency---and should find out (through nutritional analysis or trial and error) if this is indeed the case. In which case, there's no problem with the rules.

 

[PapaFrita]

I have a very hot, sensitive warmblood who is a bit of a worrier about life generally. Whenever he arrives at a venue he is incredibly nervous until I get on him when he chills out.

In fact pretty much as soon as he's plaited up he gets anxious about going competing. As soon as we arrive at a venue he is very unsettled and I had hoped that the more he went out the more relaxed he would be, but that hasn't happened so far. We've tried going to both quiet and busier venues, and he's been back to venues multiple times but he's no more chilled even if he knows the venue! We've tried giving him plenty of time to relax before I get on and the opposite too - getting to venue very late and getting straight on but it makes no difference to him. He's anxious whether I tack him up on the lorry, or tied up by the lorry (I don't do this any more as he panicked and broke loose once). As soon as I get on he is super chilled - he is not nervous at all (you can almost see him breathe a sigh a relief once I'm on!) and he's super brave and chilled in warm up arena and the test arena. After the test he's pretty relaxed and is no longer stressed. I've tried taking him out in the lorry to lessons too but he's still anxious as soon as he arrives. I don't think he's picking up nerves from me (but I am considering getting someone else to take him out instead of me to confirm this).

I'm wondering whether there might be a BD legal calmer which might help him be less anxious when he arrives somewhere (without taking the edge of him when I ride)? He's an absolute sweetheart and I have high hopes for him in Dressage but he's a bit of a worrier about life and I'm sure that given a few years he will start to relax but I'm wondering what I can do in the meantime as I don't like to see him so anxious! I also think the worry is tiring him out as he always seems to tire much quicker when riding him at a venue away from home (he doesn't seem to find the actual travelling stressful - he doesn't sweat up and he stands quietly eating until we arrive somewhere and the lorry stops!).

Any ideas?

Coligone works wonders for LC when going to new yards/shows. I think the excitement must affects his digestion (he's a terrible fidget ) and this has helped sooo much

 

[burtie]

Not in anti doping rules as its not a doping offence its in the general rules because it is expressly forbidden to administer one of whatever type.
Surely the logical thing to do is ask BD outright and get the definitive answer . However seeing as BD rules are based on FEI and BEF I cannot see how they will tell you any different

I have used this argument before, but obviously people don't like to be accused of cheating even if that is what it is! This is why most of the calmers will never have any kind of clinic trial, if it is proven to work it will be explicitly banned not just implicitly!

 

[rachk89]

I probably wouldn't even do anything about it honestly. He is fine once you get on, fine in the arena and fine after and going home. He is probably just getting new smells and getting a bit worked up but since he is fine once you are on I would just leave him to get on with it. He may calm down by himself eventually but at least he isn't being a total idiot all the time when away.

Really if it's his nerves he would be like this even once you are on it wouldn't just be like flicking a switch and they are turned off which is what it sounds like. Do you take him with other horses? If not maybe try that?

 

[dressage_diva]

Thanks rachk98. I originally thought it wasn't an issue as he is fine once I am on, but his behaviour at recent events when trying to tack him up has led me to rethink - he has snapped a leather headcollar whilst panicking and ran loose in the lorry park fully tacked up and he's also panicked whilst being left in the lorry when I went to get his saddle (I had left the partition open and he spun and started reversing down the ramp even though he was tied up (I only left partition open as I was on my own and was literally getting saddle out of tack locker - lesson learnt there).

I don't take him with any other horses as I'm the only person at my yard who does dressage so I don't have anyone to take on the lorry with him and tbh I'm reluctant to get him too used to having a friend with him as he can be quite vocal and I'd worry he'll start calling for them from the warm up!

I am hoping the more he goes out the better as he is so talented, but he is clearly a sensitive chap so I don't want him to get upset either.

 

[rachk89]

Yeah that's true too he could end up a bit dependent on the other horse.

Maybe try taking him along early and take him straight off the lorry and walk him around outside for ages? Just trying to get him to relax and listen to your voice dunno if you have tried that or not. Would work better with someone there with you who can bring tack and stuff over.

Or try to get someone else to take him like you said see if you have some nerves. I do find that I am nervous about a competition right up until I get on the horse then I relax. Maybe it's the same for you.

 

[_GG_]

I am doing some filming with the FEI Vice President, John McEwen this Thursday so I will ask him for a brief clarification on this if I remember!

 

[Goldenstar]

only one I ever use which has worked on three different horses is the syringe Equine America SO KALM + paste, I use an hour before the effect is needed, took the edge hugely off an insane TB, worked on a tricky mare and amazing on a worrying gelding that I have.

Me too this one has worked for me .

 

[Cowpony]

I'm watching this thread with interest as I posted in another thread recently that I had been shocked at a big competition to be told by another competitor that she had given her horse a calmer. I had read the rules and have to say my interpretation was the same as popsdosh. I had also read the list of banned substances and come to the conclusion that as the commercial calmers tend to list ingredients, but not substances, and the FEI lists substances, but not the ingredients they are found in, the only safe way to ensure I was not breaking the rules was to give my horse no calmer at all. She really needed one! :eek3:

I was......well the only word is "attacked" by another poster who thought (wrongly) that I was referring to her and informed me in no uncertain terms that only an idiot wouldn't give a calmer at a big show. I have no problem with people using calmers if they are legal, but I'd really like to know the definitive position so we can all be competing on a level playing field. Then at least I will know if I can give my dragon on a pogo stick something!

 

[Cortez]

Maybe I am hopelessly old fashioned, but I am shocked that people would even consider giving their horses a product that is designed to alter their behaviour, legal or not. Surely that is what training is for? And just as surely, dressage competition is supposed to test the effect of that training, not the effect of whatever mood-altering substance you may or may not have administered. Unbelievable.

 

[Cowpony]

Maybe I am hopelessly old fashioned, but I am shocked that people would even consider giving their horses a product that is designed to alter their behaviour, legal or not. Surely that is what training is for? And just as surely, dressage competition is supposed to test the effect of that training, not the effect of whatever mood-altering substance you may or may not have administered. Unbelievable.

Glad I'm not the only one. Could have used your input on that previous thread Cortez

 

[dressage_diva]

Regarding the above comments, many 'calmers' are just magnesium supplements that only work when the horse is already deficient in magnesium (if they're not deficient then the calmers have no effects). Out of interest do you object to correcting a magnesium deficiency?

 

[Cowpony]

Personally I don't object to correcting a deficiency of magnesium if it is legal to do so, and I can see the arguments on both sides. My issue is that many of the commercially prepared calmers contain lots of other things too, and as an amateur rider with little knowledge of these things I cannot be sure if they are legal or not. Others may have more knowledge than me or have access to professional competitors who know for certain. But I bet 90%+ of amateur competitors don't.

 

[popsdosh]

Regarding the above comments, many 'calmers' are just magnesium supplements that only work when the horse is already deficient in magnesium (if they're not deficient then the calmers have no effects). Out of interest do you object to correcting a magnesium deficiency?

I go back to my previous point you have done nothing to find out if your horse is indeed deficient in magnesium perhaps you dont want to know? If the horse is deficient it should be on a daily supplement not being given one offs that are designed to give you an advantage over other competitors. If you give a magnesium calmer from a tube prior to competing with the intention of calming your horse you are breaking the rules whether your horse is deficient or not the offence is in the intention to change your horses attitude. You dont really have any defence as magnesium deficiency is properly corrected by diet or daily supplement so why not do that as surely the horse will be easier to manage all the time. Most riders use calmers to mask their inability to manage a horses feeding and excersise and bluntly as a short cut.
Now I will duck behind the wall but it needed saying. The tried and tested way of getting a youngster used to what its doing is to educate it and if needs be keep repeating the excersise till it becomes the norm.

 

[dressage_diva]

popdosh my question above was not related to my case. I was politely enquiring from the above posters if they had the same attitude towards vitamin/mineral supplements in general.

I haven't made a decision yet what to do about my own situation as I am waiting for further clarification from BD, BEF and FEI which I am currently seeking so there is no need to get personal! (I may very well get my horse's blood/urine tested but that is a decision for me to make when I have all of the information I require). If after seeking all the necessary information I decide my horse requires magnesium supplementation I would definitely do it with a daily product rather than administering something only on the day of competing so I'm not sure why you're accusing me of that as I have never suggested I would like to give them a quick calmer purely on days when competing!

I raised this thread to just gain information on a) what is legal (and we've all ascertained the rulings are somewhat abiguous and further clarification I needed - which I am currently seeking!) and b) what others have found useful. I appreciate everyone's advice and it's a shame the tone of the thread had become somewhat accusatory and negative!

 

[old hand]

I wonder if rather than nervous he is excited and that is why he appears to calm down when you get on? If so Pro Kalm might work and is alleged to be amino acids only so should be legal, well it was used for our team for the Olympics! My old Grade A jumper was like that but always gave 100% with a rider on, we either hacked him there ( not an option with today's tarffic I know) or my dad led him round for an hour or more before I mounted, eventually he calmed down. the best option was to ride ten miles on him and then do a short warm up. He was a very sharp horse but always professional in the ring. We didn't have calmers in those days and to start with ten miles the day before as well was the best option. He was kept very fit so ten miles was not a stress to him, he jumped until he was 22 and I truly believe having him event fit 99% of the time kept him going. Not that we had a choice he was unshod and untrimmable so had to be ridden continually and never walked at less than about 6 miles an hour.

 

[tallyho!]

I wonder if rather than nervous he is excited and that is why he appears to calm down when you get on? If so Pro Kalm might work and is alleged to be amino acids only so should be legal, well it was used for our team for the Olympics! My old Grade A jumper was like that but always gave 100% with a rider on, we either hacked him there ( not an option with today's tarffic I know) or my dad led him round for an hour or more before I mounted, eventually he calmed down. the best option was to ride ten miles on him and then do a short warm up. He was a very sharp horse but always professional in the ring. We didn't have calmers in those days and to start with ten miles the day before as well was the best option. He was kept very fit so ten miles was not a stress to him, he jumped until he was 22 and I truly believe having him event fit 99% of the time kept him going. Not that we had a choice he was unshod and untrimmable so had to be ridden continually and never walked at less than about 6 miles an hour.

I'm afraid this was in the back of my mind too... how did we cope before calmers?

I suppose we just got on with it and tired them out either by hacking or having someone walk them or exercise them. I used to be a groom for a show producer of tb's and had to ride them for quite a while before she could go in the ring and there was a knack to calming down an ex-racehorse!

 

[Rollin]

I would have thought that before commercial calmer were invented, horsemen used substances like Valerian, which is banned. A farrier advised me to put Vick on my stallion's nose so he would not get excited by mares in season - that is classified as a drug but Balsabalm is not although as far as I can see both products are the same.

 

[Cortez]

I would have thought that before commercial calmer were invented, horsemen used substances like Valerian, which is banned. A farrier advised me to put Vick on my stallion's nose so he would not get excited by mares in season - that is classified as a drug but Balsabalm is not although as far as I can see both products are the same.

Well I would imagine that before calmers were invented horsemen used.........horsemanship.

 

[mrsh2010]

If Magic isn't BD legal, why is it often advertised on their website?

 

[tallyho!]

I would have thought that before commercial calmer were invented, horsemen used substances like Valerian, which is banned. A farrier advised me to put Vick on my stallion's nose so he would not get excited by mares in season - that is classified as a drug but Balsabalm is not although as far as I can see both products are the same.

I always thought valerian was brilliant personally. I take it myself.

However, I don't know that many people used it in my low level circles... people just bought sensible horses . However, continuously lunging horses behind the trailers seemed to be the done thing. My pet hate!

 

[Cortez]

I always thought valerian was brilliant personally. I take it myself.

However, I don't know that many people used it in my low level circles... people just bought sensible horses . However, continuously lunging horses behind the trailers seemed to be the done thing. My pet hate!

I'd rather work it than drug it.