BE -Calling Dressage Stewards/Organizers !!!

[meardsall_millie]

I have been tack checked at BE, I am amazed M_M has not been! I have no issue with someone having a quick check, I have nothing to hide!

Nope - never at BE (other than the obvious 'don't forget to drop your whip/remove horses boots'), nor have I seen anyone tack checked. I also steward fairly regularly and have never been asked by organisers to undertake tack checks.

I do dressage write from time to time - the judges always keep an eye out for tack discrepancies and do challenge riders/report it to officials for further investigation. They also sometimes pass comment on scruffy horses/riders although I can't say if this affects the mark or not

 

[kerilli]

I don't really see the problem....if you are too hot, ask if you can remove your jacket. They will either say yes or no. You then either take your jacket off, or continue to suffer in view of 'traditional dress'.

What's the problem?

What I DO see as a problem, is people thinking it's acceptable for the judge to be swayed as to how smart you are, if you have plaited or in uniform dress. The horse should be judged on the scales of training ONLY, and any judge that gets swayed by how smart the combination are, whether they know said rider, how pretty the horse is etc etc etc should NOT be allowed to judge!!

I think the problem is that if it is a very hot day and the powers that be say "no, you can't ride in a shirt" that could become an issue... not that i've ever known that to happen. as stated up there somewhere, with modern fabrics (and a lightweight chuck-in-the-wash show jacket is suprisingly cheap, there's no need to sweat in a heavy winter-weight hunt coat!) there's no need to swelter, even with a jacket on. we don't get 35 degree + temps here in the U.K., or high humidity. if it was that hot, i'd worry about the horses more than the riders!

i think we're talking at cross purposes about the effect of turnout on the judge... i sincerely hope they aren't swayed by whether they know the rider, or how pretty the horse is, or whether its kit looks more expensive than someone elses... BUT i think if you go to the extreme i mentioned (and saw warming up at BE), a FILTHY grey horse (really obvious brown stable stains, which i could have vamooshed in 2 mins with a sponge and towel!) with untidy unplaited mane, i'd expect that to possibly get slightly lower marks than 1 that was well-turned out and went the same...
it's not a Best Turned Out of course, but dressage is all about the total appearance and impression... i cannot imagine seeing, say, Carl Hester turn up for a competition on a dirty unplaited horse. I wonder why not...

 

[NR99]

IWhat I DO see as a problem, is people thinking it's acceptable for the judge to be swayed as to how smart you are, if you have plaited or in uniform dress. The horse should be judged on the scales of training ONLY, and any judge that gets swayed by how smart the combination are, whether they know said rider, how pretty the horse is etc etc etc should NOT be allowed to judge!!

I certainly don't think that, as I mentioned before it is about showing respect for someone that has turned up to give their time to mark you.

 

[AandK]

Nope - never at BE (other than the obvious 'don't forget to drop your whip/remove horses boots'), nor have I seen anyone tack checked. I also steward fairly regularly and have never been asked by organisers to undertake tack checks.

I do dressage write from time to time - the judges always keep an eye out for tack discrepancies and do challenge riders/report it to officials for further investigation. They also sometimes pass comment on scruffy horses/riders although I can't say if this affects the mark or not

Ditto. I have only ever been tack checked at RC qualifiers, where they have a steward dedicated to tack checks.

I also steward and will mention to a rider if I see something glaringly obvious, wrong hat / boots / no gloves etc, but I have never been asked to tack check each competitor.

I have also written for dressage at BE and the judges I wrote for were always complementary on the combinations that were well turned out, but this never affected the mark as far as I could tell. (however I am not a mind reader..).

I have never seen an unplaited horse at BE for dressage, but I have heard people do go un-plaited. I always make sure me and my horse are well turned out, I even plait for a local unaff dressage, because I like to look smart whatever comp we are at and my horses mane is a bit unruly when left to it's own devices!! That said, it is personal choice at the end of the day. If someone doesn't want to plait and their horse is clean and tidy, and they are too I don't see the problem.
However, there really is no excuse for turning up to a comp with stable stains! I have a grey who is very dirty when stabled, I used to allow an extra 30 mins 'poo-stain scrubbing' time when getting ready for an early morning start when he was stabled!! Luckily now he is out 24/7 I just have to contend with the odd patch of mudd or grass stains which are much easier to clean!

 

[brighteyes]

Is it just me or has this thread gone off piste?

I have read enough of it to see I agree with many of those disagreeing at first then all agreeing a bit further on! I'll put it down to typing in the heat with the wrong jacket on and dehydration.

 

[ajn1610]

• It’s a sport that Britain enjoys success in– Over 200 Championship medals in 88 years of competition

Yeah 'Old Blighty's' doing OK thank you very much - wake up and smell the gold (and silver and bronze)!

 

[hairycob]

Ok so RVB99 thinks there should just be a central announcement. How does he propose to make that so everyone knows? When I XC steward I write at the top of my white board the time interval between competitors & that MMM in the order list = a space to squeeze in a multiple rider if necessary. I will still be asked what the interval is & what MMM means approx every 5 minutes!
I know SJ stewards are often asked to try & tell competitors to get to XC early as so many don't make it that far as well as doing their SJ jobs - just how ragged do you want to run the unpaid volunteers who give up their time for you to compete. The vast majority of volunteers that I know don't compete BE themselves & never will (including me) so it's not even like they are giving back to the sport they participate in.

 

[Zebedee]

do you want us all in uniform? i think riders would fight that,

Blimey, there was enough of a kerfuffle when it became mandatory for Medical ARMbands to to worn on the arm............

 

[kerilli]

Blimey, there was enough of a kerfuffle when it became mandatory for Medical ARMbands to to worn on the arm............

haha yes, i'd forgotten that! lots of very skinny-armed people up in arms (sorry, couldn't resist!) at the thought of having to use a bit of elastic, needle and thread, and ingenuity to fix it to ARMband rather than boot... in spite of very valid medical reasons for not having it on your boot.
i can only begin to imagine the fuss if BE tried to stipulate exactly what riders should wear!

 

[oldvic]

Kerilli - thanks for the vote of confidence!! I had quite a chuckle too!!! I think B-B would argue that black was white!!!!
Maybe, instead of forgetting to put your breeches on, you should set a trend for riding in shorts in hot weather!!!

rvb99 - some of the best event riders in the world are in their late 40s/50s. All pros are human beings. They ride up to 5 horses a day which quite probably means riding all day with no breaks. They are far more likely to push themselves to an unsafe level than the amateur so why are they different?
I don't understand your problem - there is a perfectly good plan in place, not that dissimilar to your french one - if anything easier as the riders only have to remove their jacket rather than change into different kit when they may already be on their horse - it is seldom hot when dressage classes start and forecasts are often wrong!!!
For a country that is so backward, Blighty isn't doing too badly at being a training ground for many nations and the place where many strive to compete.
There are probably more cases of heatstroke among spectators than competitors - should BE be responsible for telling them what to wear too?!!

B-B - if judges ALWAYS went up then a horse that deserves to be on 65% could end on 70%. Now that would be unfair on those that genuinely earned 66-70%.

What I said was that an unplaited mane can accentuate a problem. This means that it can make a tilted head etc appear greater than it is, just like a crooked blaze can or a white leg can attract attention to irregular steps. It is called an optical illusion, nothing to do with anyones's ability to judge.

Lolo sums up showmanship perfectly.

If you respect your horse you will ride it better and therefore get better marks. Equally, horses have the ability to be proud and show themselves off to their maximum, some more than others. Those horses will dare the judge to give them marks more than the horse that goes correctly but appear to apologise for being there. They are far more likely to be proud if well turned out. If I have explained this badly, I apologise, but believe me, there are many horses that save a bit for themselves unless they are plaited and well turned out, then they know that energy is required. This is how turnout affects the marks, not because the judge gives extra, but because it enhances the performance.

baggybreeches - I'm longing to see the dinosaurs - it could rival lions escaping at Longleat!

 

[Saratoga]

Do you honestly think that horses go better when they are plaited??!

 

[walker1234]

I've come to the conclusion that B-B stands for BLOODY BORED and rvb stands for REALLY VERY BORED.

I can see no other logical explanation for the circles these two are going in other than to while away the time they have on their hands (if indeed it is actually 2 different people)

 

[kerilli]

I've come to the conclusion that B-B stands for BLOODY BORED and rvb stands for REALLY VERY BORED.

I can see no other logical explanation for the circles these two are going in other than to while away the time they have on their hands (if indeed it is actually 2 different people)

Yes, proto-trolls perhaps. most odd.

oldvic, i must admit that had never occurred to me... i know that some horses definitely rise to the occasion, and some shrink into themselves in a big atmosphere, but i never thought of their turnout actually affecting their behaviour at all... hmm, lots to ponder there, thanks.

Saratoga... i'm musing on it!

 

[Santa_Claus]

I can tell you now Fleur knows that plaiting = party/competition and there is no question she rises to the occasion, i can get work from her in 10 mins at an event which she will make me wait 30+ mins for at home.

I also always plait her for dressage as she has a horribly thick scruffy mane and plaits really show off her neck.

As for judges marking turnout they dont but it will often subconciously affect their frame of mind in the same way a smile down the centre line will. Dress smart (with or without jacket!) and smile coming down the centre and it will be noticed and may well edge up the occasional 6.5 to a 7.

Almost all the judges I have ever scribed for (including several list 1 international judges) will often give half marks and will keep a mental tally increasing/decreasing marks as appropriate through the test to give a fair reflection of the true mark. For example if the rider rides a movement for a 6.5 and the next a 6.5 the judge will give them a 6 and then round the second one up to a 7. They do not round up every single movement/mark as it as said gives an untrue reflection of the test.

In regards to the original point re jackets what is constituted as overly hot weather. If the steward happened to comes from Southern France even 30 (which to us is hot) would just be warm and may well not think to say no jackets. at another event it may be 20 and the steward from North Scotland and the opposite could apply.

Best to leave as is IMHO, if a rider feels hot they ask their arena steward, if they confirm with head steward no jackets then the word can soon be spread.

Oh and i must be rare that as a new member last year i read the rule book, although to me its also common sense in uncomfortably warm weather to ask permission to remove jackets but again maybe thats just me!? Not that I have had to do so yet....

 

[oldvic]

Well, to be fair, who can say but there are horses who know what plaits mean and they "grow". I wouldn't argue with anyone who said that the plaits give the impression of the horse being proud of itself and showing itself off but the effect is the same!! It leads to a more expressive picture and therefore the possibility of higher marks. The turnout not being judged but it affecting the picture. What I'm trying to say is very hard to put into words especially to someone who doesn't want to understand what I mean which probably led to people thinking I meant that judges give extra marks for plaiting. It can work the other way too - the advanced dressage horse I had that I tended not to plait was pretty wild and could wind himself up at the thought of a show. He wouldn't stale on the lorry if plaited so I would leave him with a short, well pulled mane.
I don't know if this makes my thoughts and observations any clearer or even muddier!!!!

 

[kerilli]

As for judges marking turnout they dont but it will often subconciously affect their frame of mind in the same way a smile down the centre line will. Dress smart (with or without jacket!) and smile coming down the centre and it will be noticed and may well edge up the occasional 6.5 to a 7.

Almost all the judges I have ever scribed for (including several list 1 international judges) will often give half marks and will keep a mental tally increasing/decreasing marks as appropriate through the test to give a fair reflection of the true mark. For example if the rider rides a movement for a 6.5 and the next a 6.5 the judge will give them a 6 and then round the second one up to a 7. They do not round up every single movement/mark as it as said gives an untrue reflection of the test.

Yes, exactly this, this is what I was trying to say. I've written for a List 1 judge who did exactly that, plus kept a careful tally of all his top ones in a class, and their collectives, and would be sure to adjust final collectives of any more good tests to be sure he got them in the correct order of preference on overall %age. i think in moments like that, presentation (which includes turnout, smiling, etc etc) makes a difference.

i agree that there are definitely horses who know what plaits mean, and maybe they do 'grow' accordingly. even more reason to plait, as long as their temperament can take it! a good reason not to plait the night before too, imho... i want my horse to be relaxed the night before a competition, not at all tense or anticipatory.

 

[B-B]

Kerilli - thanks for the vote of confidence!! I had quite a chuckle too!!! I think B-B would argue that black was white!!!!


B-B - if judges ALWAYS went up then a horse that deserves to be on 65% could end on 70%. Now that would be unfair on those that genuinely earned 66-70%.

What I said was that an unplaited mane can accentuate a problem. This means that it can make a tilted head etc appear greater than it is, just like a crooked blaze can or a white leg can attract attention to irregular steps. It is called an optical illusion, nothing to do with anyones's ability to judge.

Lolo sums up showmanship perfectly.

If you respect your horse you will ride it better and therefore get better marks. Equally, horses have the ability to be proud and show themselves off to their maximum, some more than others. Those horses will dare the judge to give them marks more than the horse that goes correctly but appear to apologise for being there. They are far more likely to be proud if well turned out. If I have explained this badly, I apologise, but believe me, there are many horses that save a bit for themselves unless they are plaited and well turned out, then they know that energy is required. This is how turnout affects the marks, not because the judge gives extra, but because it enhances the performance.

baggybreeches - I'm longing to see the dinosaurs - it could rival lions escaping at Longleat!

Im merely stating facts. Black and white

ERmm..judges dont decide the percentage a horse should be on. They mark each individual movement and then summarize. Judges dont decide the placing either. They mark what they see and move on.

Judges do see head tilt etc, but may comment as to the cause...not the symptom.

If they judge has 6 or a 7 in mind then there must be something that makes them see a 7. So they would award up. If another horse is better it too will receive better marks. But there are many different reason so each mark and that deciding factor comes through training, not turn out or horsemanship. They look for ring craft. If you do your transitions away from the judge to avoid showing an open mouth, then this loss of contact will show up in the balance or straightness of your horse.

All this can be clarified (black and white) by BD.

 

[B-B]

Yes, exactly this, this is what I was trying to say. I've written for a List 1 judge who did exactly that, plus kept a careful tally of all his top ones in a class, and their collectives, and would be sure to adjust final collectives of any more good tests to be sure he got them in the correct order of preference on overall %age. i think in moments like that, presentation (which includes turnout, smiling, etc etc) makes a difference.

Oh dear, oh dear! And you believe that? Really?

 

[kerilli]

Im merely stating facts. Black and white

ERmm..judges dont decide the percentage a horse should be on. They mark each individual movement and then summarize. Judges dont decide the placing either. They mark what they see and move on.

Judges do see head tilt etc, but may comment as to the cause...not the symptom.

If they judge has 6 or a 7 in mind then there must be something that makes them see a 7. So they would award up. If another horse is better it too will receive better marks. But there are many different reason so each mark and that deciding factor comes through training, not turn out or horsemanship. They look for ring craft. If you do your transitions away from the judge to avoid showing an open mouth, then this loss of contact will show up in the balance or straightness of your horse.

All this can be clarified (black and white) by BD.

Please read the first paragraph of my previous post. That was writing for a List 1 judge. I started writing for him when he was List 3 or 4, I can't remember which. That kind of attention to detail is what made him progress to judging at List 1. GOOD judges keep track of what %age their top few are on, and slot any new ones in in the right place, with careful use of the collectives, they don't just simply mark what they see before them... or, the ones that do, are probably the ones whose marks mysteriously improve towards the end of Day 2 of judging at a 3-day...

We cross-posted.

YES, i do believe it, because i witnessed it, many times! i was not the beneficiary, i am not in cloud cuckoo land here... i was the dressage writer.
have you ever written for a truly excellent high-listed dressage judge? i doubt it somehow, judging by the extent of your 'knowledge'.
i really can't tell if you are a troll or not but you sure as hell are as chuffing annoying as one.

 

[B-B]

No, they dont.

They may keep the collective scores but and perhaps a short description but his is just in case someone comes to speak to them about their horse and it will help jog their memory. Most judges do this...from trainee. I have written for many judges up to international level for many years.

Im afraid someone has given you the wrong impression at some point and probably hasnt realised it. Yes its nice to see people smiling but judges really are a grumpy lot and not swayed by such things.

Its a shame you have had to resort to name calling in an attempt to win your argument. Some are able to have a civil discussion.

Just looking at your avatar. Do you still compete? Looks familiar.

 

[kerilli]

No, they dont.

They may keep the collective scores but and perhaps a short description but his is just in case someone comes to speak to them about their horse and it will help jog their memory. Most judges do this...from trainee.

Its a shame you have had to resort to name calling in an attempt to win your argument. Some are able to have a civil discussion.

Just looking at your avatar. Do you still compete? Looks familiar.

I am telling you what I saw. He explained it to me. Please don't imply that I am an idiot with no idea what I am talking about... I was there and witnessed this. I won't name the judge but he judges at top level.
Trust me, that isn't my idea of name-calling! You seem determined to ignore anything anyone says that does not back up your own set-in-stone beliefs. I can't tell if you are just arguing for the sake of it.
I do still compete, and hope to get out again soon when 1 of my horses is ready, I haven't given up yet although it probably looks like it!
I doubt that one looks familiar, she retired in 2000. If the venue looks familiar, it's in Germany.

 

[B-B]

So the view of one judge and your interpretation of what he said.

No argument....I know Im right. Years of training and testing...

You use name calling to win your argument and at the same time take huge offence to anyone else posting a different view. Odd.

I respect different points of view...even judges have that.

 

[Santa_Claus]

i can name (although i won't name them by name!) two top international judges that i have scribed for that do exactly the same. and when I mean top I mean olympics type hugely well respected top judges not 'any old' judge!! actually no make that three as forgot a third wonderful foreign judge who sadly passed away a few years back now.

There is a reason why there is an active 'may well actually happen' FEI level campaign for half marks because the top judges give them all the time and would prefer to give the half mark for the individual movement rather than rounding up/down to compensate.

 

[diggerbez]

this is getting better and better go kerrili!

 

[ajn1610]

No argument....I know Im right. Years of training and testing...


I respect different points of view...even judges have that.

hmmm, so you respect others points of view even though you are 100% right 100% of the time. How remarkably tolerant you must be to have to put up with us troglodytes. I unfortunately, lack your patience. Since there is no use 'discussing' anything with someone who knows they are right and because you seem so desperate to have the last word I would recommend other users follow my example and give it to you by not posting any more and letting this topic die.

Good Night and God Bless

 

[kerilli]

So the view of one judge and your interpretation of what he said.

No argument....I know Im right. Years of training and testing...

You use name calling to win your argument and at the same time take huge offence to anyone else posting a different view. Odd.

I respect different points of view...even judges have that.

My 'interpretation' of how he explained it (very carefully). He was even meticulous enough to ensure that if they ended on the same percentages, the one he thought was marginally better would have higher collectives so would be placed higher.
as Santa Claus attests, this is not unusual among top judges.
So, which List are you on then? I am not a dressage judge, just an enthusiastic writer and rider.
I don't take "huge offence", I'm just rather bemused by your utter inflexibility on this.
Please note that I have been careful to say "good judges" not "all judges"... i'm sure many might judge just as you say. I bet they won't get to List 1 or List 2 though, which is the calibre of people I am talking about here.

diggerbez, get your popcorn out...
although, i promised myself an early night, so i'm not staying here to argue all night!

 

[oldvic]

ERmm..judges dont decide the percentage a horse should be on. They mark each individual movement and then summarize. Judges dont decide the placing either. They mark what they see and move on.

Judges do see head tilt etc, but may comment as to the cause...not the symptom.

If they judge has 6 or a 7 in mind then there must be something that makes them see a 7. So they would award up. If another horse is better it too will receive better marks. But there are many different reason so each mark and that deciding factor comes through training, not turn out or horsemanship. They look for ring craft. If you do your transitions away from the judge to avoid showing an open mouth, then this loss of contact will show up in the balance or straightness of your horse.

The judge will know roughly what percentage a horse has come out at - it's not rocket science - look down the sheet at the end of the test and it's there in front of you. If you judge the test then what do you do if you don't decide the percentage and the placing - that is exactly what a judge does! There is a list 1 judge who can add the scores as she goes along if she wants - she is an accountant!!

It is not the judge's job to comment on what the cause of faults is, just comment on what they see, in other words "tipping head" rather than "tipping head due to lack of suppleness". Poor writer would never cope!!! Of course the judge can see a tipping head but a flowing mane makes it more obvious.

If the judge sees something that makes them think 6 or 7 then, while I agree there was something to make them think 7, there was also something to make them think 6. A horse that clearly deserves 7s (70%) shouldn't get the same mark as a horse that deserves 6/7 (65%). Horsemanship makes a huge difference - look at Carl on Utopia on Sunday. Without his feel and ability to make the right corrections at the right time then it wouldn't have been over 80%. Horsemanship and ringcraft are all about getting marks - the half-halt away from the judge, the shoulder-fore across the short side, where to reduce or increase power, etc. Just because a horse opens his mouth,shortens his neck or whatever in a transition, it doesn't mean that he will go crooked or lose balance and if he does then you will only be marked down for that and not the open mouth as you must only mark what you can see. You may have an idea that something is going on but if you can't see it in some movements (like tongue out) then you can't mark for it.

 

[B-B]

Judges dont have time....you only have time to quickly write your collectives, summarize and the other horse is already in....

Judges do comment on the cause in relation to the scales. To ist all you see would be very negative.

Same for the collectives.

Sorry if my confidence in what I do disturbs. Perhaps you would prefer to be judged by judges who are a bit wishy washy and swayed by smiles.

 

[oldvic]

I would love to know what list B-B is on too! She? chose not to reply to my question when I asked before!!!

 

[Zebedee]

B-B love - when you're already up to your neck it's often a good idea to put down the shovel & stop digging.