BE -Calling Dressage Stewards/Organizers !!!

I'd be embarrassed to do any dressage test without plaits in. I tend to pull my plaits out for x country if I have time (I have no groom) I also don't really see how doing a dressage test in a jacket and thin shirt is any cooler than doing x country in a body protector, and the riders seem to manage that ok without moaning and fainting. I totally agree with the pp who said maybe the rider had not had sufficient fuel and fluids inside them. I like the tradition of it all, and every rider I've seen out has been smart, grey horses are scrubbed even though we all know they come back from x country a mess a lot of the time, and I see children with plaited horses that they've obviously plaited themselves but fair play to them, I'd rather see a child with a horse like that than a/one that hasn't bothered to plait or b/ is stood screeching at their well paid groom because they haven't won! I've done PC as a child and I've done a bit of stressage, but I can honestly say that BE has been the nicest, fairest and friendliest environment I've ever been part of. I think that people nowadays just complain for the sake of complaining. And as said before if you personally are too hot, then go and ask someone if you may remove your jacket, its your choice, but I for one wont be removing mine, or taking horses in with a mane flopping about.
 
This Sunday was the hottest day of the year...with very high humidity.

I dont think anyone cold drink enough and warm up in these conditions.

Riders dont realize how dehydrated they are getting when they are concentrating.

Im not talking about a sunny day. Its a health and safety issue in such extreme conditions.

There were some horrible shades of purple on horseback...and no one was complaining.
 
B-B said:
People dont ask and I did encourage people to, but they are under the assumption that its is the rule and they would be penalized.

As with your comment..some dont know every rule.
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So after you told the people it wasn't a rule, especially since you have worked as an official, why didn't one of them ask?

As far as not knowing every rule . . . is there not anything in the paperwork to the affect of "ignorance of the rules is not an excuse"? I know this is a very minor point and I'm well aware that people do not read the rule book from cover to cover but it's suggested they do, especially if they are new to the sport and/or lack qualified help, so if they choose not to, that's really their look out. There are far more important and potentially serious rules people need to know, which is a good reason to not just tell them rules as they apply but encourage them to do their research.

I do see why you're making your point re people coming in to the sport but presumably not everyone on the day was new.

Interestingly, jackets are fairly regularly excused in Canada (sometimes an official or organiser makes the call on their own, sometimes someone asks and then they do) but quite often people choose to ride in them anyway, especially if it's a big show and/or they might want photos. I don't think anyone thinks they'll be penalised, they do it because they want to uphold the traditions/look neat/live up to their own standards. Same with braiding, most people know it's not a rule but it's their choice, like having neat tack and a clean horse. Sometimes people don't - they run late, the horse object (some really do) - and judges still use them if their performance warrants it.
 
B-B said:
This Sunday was the hottest day of the year...with very high humidity.

I dont think anyone cold drink enough and warm up in these conditions.

Riders dont realize how dehydrated they are getting when they are concentrating.

Im not talking about a sunny day. Its a health and safety issue in such extreme conditions.

There were some horrible shades of purple on horseback...and no one was complaining.
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If no one was complaining perhaps you are the only one with a problem? Most all these replies have disagreed with you and it seems most posters don't feel it's unreasonable to wear a jacket for a few minutes during a test. I don't think you can assume everyone there was too stupid/lazy to read or understand the rules. Perhaps they are merely prepared to suffer some mild discomfort for the sake of good form and pride in their appearance. As you've pointed out repeatedly - it's a matter of personal choice. What you pay to compete is irrelevant when talking about your manner towards officials since they don't get paid and they are doing you a favour by giving their time so you can enjoy your sport. Also I disagree that riders are unable to manage their fluids. It's obvious it's going to be hot and riders need to take care of themselves and their horses accordingly.
 
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Their belief that they would be penalized was stronger and not prepared to take the risk.

This was an exceptionally hot day, not just your average hot summers day.

Quote: and judges still use them if their performance warrants it.

Sorry, I dont understand what this means?
 
ajn1610 said:
If no one was complaining perhaps you are the only one with a problem? Most all these replies have disagreed with you and it seems most posters don't feel it's unreasonable to wear a jacket for a few minutes during a test. I don't think you can assume everyone there was too stupid/lazy to read or understand the rules. Perhaps they are merely prepared to suffer some mild discomfort for the sake of good form and pride in their appearance. As you've pointed out repeatedly - it's a matter of personal choice. What you pay to compete is irrelevant when talking about your manner towards officials since they don't get paid and they are doing you a favour by giving their time so you can enjoy your sport. Also I disagree that riders are unable to manage their fluids. It's obvious it's going to be hot and riders need to take care of themselves and their horses accordingly.
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Goodness!! No one has said anything about riders being lazy or stupid...apart from you. No one is suggesting bad manners to officials. Very odd.

I was not competing and didnt have a personal problem with this but was alarmed at the condition of the riders. Heath and safety / riders welfare is more important than 'standards'.

A small addition to the BE website or a word from the tack checker would suffice!
 
I think we're all a bit confused. Is the point that you want people to be told that they have the right to not wear jackets? I suspect there's a good argument to be made there that officials and organisers cannot spend their whole day telling people the rules. After all, there are about a million health and safety aspects to riding horses, covered by the rules and not - they would spend their whole day on the subject. Re a comment from the tack steward, presumably this would only apply if jackets HAVE been excuse, at which point it's presumably been announced, so if someone is still wearing a jacket it's a personal choice.

Or is it that officials should be more proactive and excuse jackets at a certain point? Then surely the better solution would be to have a rule saying jackets will be excused at such and such a temperature?

Or that is should be "proven" that not wearing a jacket affects scores. (I think most people's experience is, in situations where jackets have been officially excused, it doesn't.)

Out of curiosity, what have people done up to this point? Jacket and shirt technology has come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of decades and even allowing for global warming, I don't remember it being a serious issue in the past.

In the great scheme of things yesterday was not THAT hot - lots of people ride regularly in hotter. And in the massive amount of work that's been done on horse and rider cooling, resulting in all sorts of adaptations to the sport, I can't remember anyone saying wearing modern-type jackets for a total of 10 minutes was a significant factor. I agree, it's weird to be running around in dark, heavy jackets in the blistering heat, but we did all know that going in. ;)

I think maybe everyone is getting in a twist about this because (other than the fact that we're all hot and cranky ;) ) is because there is so much pressure now to "take care" of riders, especially in eventing. And there is some argument that "over nannying" them (vs, say, promoting safety equipment, better jump design etc.) actually, over time, makes things LESS safe. Honestly, no one choosing to do a dangerous sport like evening SHOULD need looking after. (And if they don't know it's a dangerous sport . . .I don't know what to say about that.) So the jacket thing is totally unimportant and the least of anyone's worries, but it raises that spectre of when do people doing such a dangerous sport have to read the rules and apply their own safety standards. Let's face it, eventing is a health and safety nightmare all over! ;)
 
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When I was eventing last year at Wolverhampton and it was 32C, the steward in the warm up was by the entrance and told everyone as they walked in that they didn't need their jackets on.

tbh, if they hadn't of told me, I wouldn't have thought to ask as I thought is was the steward's descretion and didn't realise it was something you could request as a rider.
 
It amazes me that so many people compete BE without apparently reading the rules. I do XC collecting ring & I can guarantee that every time a few will turn up for BE90 unaware that they should have they're hat tagged or that they must have an armband, so ignorance of the rules around jackets & hot weather is no surprise. TBH it's the competitors responsibility to find out the rules before they compete.
 
B-B said:
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There are no rules for plaiting...and as said before no impact on marks.
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Not strictly true, I have written for several judges who have a bug bear about this, they feel the rider should bother to make the effort, ok it's at the lower levels but it did impact on the score given.

Luci07 said:
And I like to see standards maintained. In reality, you only get out to a few events and I take pride in turning myself and my horse out to the best standard I can. That for me means plaiting - I can't understand the comment that it hurts the horse! having had horses who can't bear their manes being pulled I am sure they would have reacted strongly if plaiting hurt.
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Agree completely.

Lolo said:
B-B, I'm almost insulted on behalf of the riders who you are saying are completely scatter-brained, shy and generally incompetent of asking "Can I take my jacket off as it is fecking hot?"... PC children (children!) manage to go and ask their dressage judges if it's okay without their entire day falling to pieces!
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This exactly, they can bath, plait, prepare their horse, look after it all year round and get it eventing fit but are not capable of reading a rule book or asking if their jacket should be removed.

kerilli said:
i agree with Luci07, and for me it's about respect for the judges, officials etc. yes, plaiting takes a little while (i take a minute per plait if using elaccy bands) but it's worth it.
ditto wearing a jacket, it's only for 5 mins or so (i put mine on a few mins before my test if it's a really hot day) and worth it to look smart. i've done dressage in 35 degrees with no breeze at all, it was like an oven, compared to that anything's cool!
i hate seeing standards slipping. at ALW BE a few years back someone was warming up for the novice on a grey, which not only wasn't plaited (the only 1 i saw there that wasn't) it was also absolutely filthy, covered in stable stains... no excuse for that imho. :( :( good turnout is part and parcel of competing, isn't it... or, why bother?
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Agree with all of the above.

hairycob said:
It amazes me that so many people compete BE without apparently reading the rules. I do XC collecting ring & I can guarantee that every time a few will turn up for BE90 unaware that they should have they're hat tagged or that they must have an armband, so ignorance of the rules around jackets & hot weather is no surprise. TBH it's the competitors responsibility to find out the rules before they compete.
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Everyone has a responsibility to read the rules for their competition, don't they?:confused:

R rode in Sussex this weekend and it was crushingly hot, some had taken their jackets off. She took it off for warm up but chose to put it on for her test as she said she did not a) feel properly dressed b) felt it was respectful to the judge and c) new it would be a damn sight worse on the XC. She is 16 and capable of making the decision. She was fine in her jacket for the dressage, however on the XC she came back feeling really faint due to wearing her Point 2 and Rodney Powell which she said was far hotter than her tweed.

I really do think credit should be given to those competing, they are perfectly capable of asking. I don't believe they are worried about asking due to the ramifications, IME it will be more likely that they can't be bothered and would rather someone else did it. :)
 
NR99 then where on the dressage sheet did the judges deduct the marks?

The test is judged according to the scales. Absolutely no nentuon of turn out in the scales. Judges are not directed to dedect marks for turn out.

Please cotact BD for clarification.

Why then do you need a tack check if the rules are clear?

Do you get that at akk BSJA or BD?
 
B-B said:
Why then do you need a tack check if the rules are clear?

Do you get that at akk BSJA or BD?
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There is no tack check at BE (unlike PC/RC) - if a judge/steward notices something amiss, or another competitor complains then you can be pulled over and checked but you are not checked as a matter of course before competing :confused:
 
B-B said:
NR99 then where on the dressage sheet did the judges deduct the marks?

The test is judged according to the scales. Absolutely no nentuon of turn out in the scales. Judges are not directed to dedect marks for turn out.

Please cotact BD for clarification.

Why then do you need a tack check if the rules are clear?

Do you get that at akk BSJA or BD?
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have you ever written for a judge, or been a judge?
there might not be a box with "marks for turnout" written on it, but the overall impression does make a difference, and might make a judge decide to give a 6 instead of a 7, say. throughout.
i've written for quite a lot of very good judges and imho the overall picture does make a difference. not necessarily whether someone is wearing a jacket or not, but whether the horse is turned out nicely or, in the case i described above, FILTHY as well as being unplaited.
 
Having collapsed at a ODE and been very seriously ill from overheating, I ALWAYS ask if I can take my jacket off on a hot day. They can only say no. Normally this leads to others taking theirs off when they realise they can.

I've also ridden at an U21 International BD competition with no jacket on a scorching day. No mention of it not being smart enough or the 'done thing' then.

For what it's worth, I think a smart stock shirt tucked in to clean smart jods with a belt looks nicer than a jacket anyway!
 
meardsall_millie said:
There is no tack check at BE (unlike PC/RC) - if a judge/steward notices something amiss, or another competitor complains then you can be pulled over and checked but you are not checked as a matter of course before competing :confused:
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You are checked as a matter of course by some stewards/ at some events.

At 2 x BE events I went to last season a steward checked EVERY horse before they went down to their dressage arenas.
 
The reason there can be a tack check is that some less scrupulous riders will use a bit that is not dressage legal if they think nobody is checking. I have known a well known rider use a doctor bristol or a copper roller before now!!! It is however their responsibility to get it right. A tack steward can only point out to them if they are wrong and report back but not eliminate them.
 
millitiger said:
You are checked as a matter of course by some stewards/ at some events.

At 2 x BE events I went to last season a steward checked EVERY horse before they went down to their dressage arenas.
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Gosh, I must have been very lucky then. In all the *ahem* 'many' (;)) years that I've been eventing, I have never been checked, nor have I seen other competitors checked as a matter of course, other than at PC/RC events.

I wonder if that was an 'over officious' steward that had taken it upon themselves to do it, or if they had been asked to do it by the organisers? :confused:

FEI, I accept, is a different matter.......

ETA: Oldvic - I realise that there 'can' be a tack check, my point was simply that it generally doesn't happen :)
 
But they dont feel the need at BD.

It would perhaps be the ideal time to mention the jackets...only on exceptionally hot days of course.
 
I dressage steward at BE events local to me, and tack check. It's quite interesting- one man was convinced he was doing an Intermediate on his horse and had a double bridle in. He was definitely doing the ON- he trotted off for the quickest bit change in history!
 
meardsall_millie said:
Well there's no accounting for those who don't even know which class they're in lolo. As far as I know there's no rule that excludes numpties from entering!
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:D:D

B-B said:
NR99 then where on the dressage sheet did the judges deduct the marks?

The test is judged according to the scales. Absolutely no nentuon of turn out in the scales. Judges are not directed to dedect marks for turn out.

Please cotact BD for clarification.

Why then do you need a tack check if the rules are clear?

Do you get that at akk BSJA or BD?
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The judges in question didn't write a deduction anywhere, but just because it is not shown on the sheet as somewhere that they can note a deduction does not mean it does not go on. In the same way that a judge at a BE event that I was writing for gave Rodney Powell an extra mark becuase she liked him as he 'is a cheeky boy' there was no box for extra marks for cheeky boys either :):D:rolleyes:
 
Princecharming said:
I'd be embarrassed to do any dressage test without plaits in.
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I sometimes do BD without plaiting, did some BE without plaiting and regularly do RC without plaiting. And I'm never the only one. I don't see what the big deal is.

You see pictures in H&H magazine of dressage riders unplaited. Did H&H refuse to put them in the mag because they looked scruffy? No.

A clean brushed horse looks perfectly nice to me.

And having written for some dressage judges in the past, they told me they didn't care a fig what people did, they weren't marking them on turnout after all.
 
NR99 said:
:D:D
In the same way that a judge at a BE event that I was writing for gave Rodney Powell an extra mark becuase she liked him as he 'is a cheeky boy' there was no box for extra marks for cheeky boys either :):D:rolleyes:
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Then she was a dodgy judge surely???

We were once stood with a few people at a water jump at a BE Event. Along came a professional rider on a young horse who initially refused to go into the water. It leapt about and clearly stepped back several times, but the judge ignored all that, and was heard to say to her companion that 'she'd let it go [with no penalties] because the horse was young!

Errghhh no!

It was reported back by a bystander and the horse was quite rightly eliminated after completing.

This sort of thing shouldn't come into it. Each horse should be judged equally on it's merit, otherwise the whole thing becomes a farce.
 
I was at Milton Keynes on Sunday and it was bl**dy hot but for goodness sake it is only a couple of minutes that you have to wear it for. If you were that hot you would surely warm up without your jacket (you are very stupid if you think you will have marks deducted whilst warming up!!) and then either stick it out for a few mins while you do your test or ask a Steward, you have to speak to them anyway to tell them you are there etc and ready for your test/sj round.

On Sunday they did actually let us do tests without jackets but I kept mine on as I think it's respectful and it's only for a very short period of time! For Sjing you could also jump without a jacket as long as you had long sleeves but I kept mine on as a) I think it's smarter and b) because I also wanted to get a picture.

I would never dream of not plaiting or washing my horse, it is resepectful and tradition and pure lazy not to. Just because BD and BS do certain things does not mean BE has to follow.

I really don't see your issue at all OP, if someone is that hot then simply ask the steward...............why is that so hard???!!!
 
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