BE -Calling Dressage Stewards/Organizers !!!

BD now allows you to wear waistcoasts in hot weather, which is great because it's much cooler than a jacket but still covers up the stomach!
 
I've just read the whole of this post and am amazed.

1. If I thought it was too hot for me to wear my jacket to do a 6 minute dressage test, then I would seriously question as to whether it was to hot to take my horse XC.

2. I am a BSJA judge and in very hot or wet weather the riders will ask if they can jump without jackets/wet weather gear. The emphasis being on the riders asking, and the answer is usually yes.

3. Do you think the question would ever be asked at a CCI where everyone is in tails, even at CCI*, as it completes the picture.

Sorry rant over. Dressage is about training and painting a pretty picrture, part of that is in how you turn out yourself and your horse.
 
susie2193 said:
2. I am a BSJA judge and in very hot or wet weather the riders will ask if they can jump without jackets/wet weather gear. The emphasis being on the riders asking, and the answer is usually yes.
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This has always been the case when I've competed in hot weather. What normally happens then is the person who asked tells the other riders in the collecting ring that its the case and informs the ring steward in case other riders ask the question. No big deal.
 
JunoXV said:
This has always been the case when I've competed in hot weather. What normally happens then is the person who asked tells the other riders in the collecting ring that its the case and informs the ring steward in case other riders ask the question. No big deal.
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Either that, or once one person has asked and we say yes. Believe it or not it often doesn't occur to the judges, until someone asks. Then it will be announced over the tannoy. As you say no big deal.
 
B-B, I don't really see what your argument is in all this!!! I have competed B.E for over ten years and have rarely ever done a test without a jacket on, it is perfectly simple to slip your jacket on just before going into a test and make sure that I had drunk lots of fluids before getting on.

To throw a stick at wasps nest, maybe some of the reason some riders were so purple is because there fitness levels are not really up to scratch, as an unfit person will always struggle in the heat more than a fit person.

r.e not plaiting for a dressage test is in my opinion disgraceful, it shows a complete lack of respect to judges, stewards and other competitors that have bothered to put the effort in. You are there to present your horse in the best possible way and to show your horse off to the judge, therefore you should turn your horse out to fit with this!!! And anyone who has that much of an issue with taking twenty mins to plait a horse should hog it!!:D
 
giveachance said:
B-B, I don't really see what your argument is in all this!!! I have competed B.E for over ten years and have rarely ever done a test without a jacket on, it is perfectly simple to slip your jacket on just before going into a test and make sure that I had drunk lots of fluids before getting on.

To throw a stick at wasps nest, maybe some of the reason some riders were so purple is because there fitness levels are not really up to scratch, as an unfit person will always struggle in the heat more than a fit person.

r.e not plaiting for a dressage test is in my opinion disgraceful, it shows a complete lack of respect to judges, stewards and other competitors that have bothered to put the effort in. You are there to present your horse in the best possible way and to show your horse off to the judge, therefore you should turn your horse out to fit with this!!! And anyone who has that much of an issue with taking twenty mins to plait a horse should hog it!!:D
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Amen to that.
as said above, modern fabrics are far lighter, breathe etc... there really is no excuse at all for looking purple on a hot day.
think of top riders at Championships at Hong Kong, Atlanta (legendarily hot and humid iirc), in Australia, the U.S. and mainland Europe where the temps soar, plus they're doing a 10 minute test... nobody says they should be out there in shirt sleeves.

B-B, what is your agenda here? that people should be allowed to turn up as scruffy as they like and with their horse looking as if it has just been yanked out of the field and had its tack thrown on?
 
NR99 said:
:D:D
In the same way that a judge at a BE event that I was writing for gave Rodney Powell an extra mark becuase she liked him as he 'is a cheeky boy' there was no box for extra marks for cheeky boys either :):D:rolleyes:
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Looking at your location, I wonder whether that is the same judge I wrote for once at BE. She spent half her time waving at the pros as they came past her car and calling things like "Hellllooooo, Pippa!" out of her window. As you can imagine, the pros got vastly higher marks for their tests, even if they were not always deserved.

I must add though that is the only time I have ever encountered a facey judge in my many years of writing - everyone else has always judged very fairly, IMO. I've never heard a judge comment about lack of plaiting either, although usually the unplaited ones tend to be M&Ms, Arabs etc, who are not traditionally plaited anyway.

As for the issue about jackets, I must say it is nice when you do get the all-clear to ride without jackets, but like others have said, at horse trials I would worry about the health/fitness of any rider who couldn't cope with a jacket on for the dressage test when later they have to go XC in long sleeves and a BP. My daughter managed two showjumping classes and two dressage tests on Sunday in a tweed jacket without fainting or turning purple, although she did remember to drink plenty of water.

As for tack checks at BE, a lot of the stewards are also volunteers at PC/RC so tend to tack check automatically, even although it is not mandatory. I've stewarded at BE myself and know there is plenty enough to do anyway, without having to worry about competitor who are too shy or uninformed to ask for permission to remove jackets!
 
FD -Answers in the posts above.

Lucky you being told you can take your jackets off.
 
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susie2193 said:
Dressage is about training and painting a pretty picrture, part of that is in how you turn out yourself and your horse.
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Its about training.

As long as you are turn out within in the rules there are no marks added or deducted for turn out for you or your horse (as mentioned several times over :rolleyes:)

No plaiting does not mean your horse is scruffy. Judges are not offended by this. There are always scare stories from people who wrote for judges. There are unlisted/untrained judges judging at intro level so they can say whatever they like...to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Taking jackets off is not always easy if people who are out on their own. Its not as simple as taking it off...and (repeating myself :rolleyes:) as with some of the misconceptions posted on this thread, they worry they may be penalized. Okay if youve been competing for 10yrs...but maybe not in your first season.
 
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The whole thing about competing is learning to cope when things don't go your way. You have to be able to stay calm and keep your focus when the goalposts move, when somebody upsets your horse, when the class is suddenly running late, the riding in area isn't ideal or any number of other problems that occur. We can't always have our own way and those that cope best with that do best and have the most fun.
Yes, dressage is about the training but turnout in general and plaits in particular enhance the picture. Ok there is the rare horse that goes considerably better unplaited (I had one that competed up to intermediaire 1) but then the mane must be pulled very neatly and quite short. Plaits can be done to enhance the neck and make the outline better and this will help your marks. A judge shouldn't mark a horse down if it's not plaited, just like the rider shouldn't get marks for "being a cheeky boy", but the picture presented can make a difference if the judge is thinking is it nearer 6 or 7?
I get the feeling that you might need to re-think your philosophy for competing B-B or is it a question of you are right and the rest of the world is wrong?!!
 
oldvic said:
Yes, dressage is about the training but turnout in general and plaits in particular enhance the picture. Ok there is the rare horse that goes considerably better unplaited (I had one that competed up to intermediaire 1) but then the mane must be pulled very neatly and quite short. Plaits can be done to enhance the neck and make the outline better and this will help your marks. A judge shouldn't mark a horse down if it's not plaited, just like the rider shouldn't get marks for "being a cheeky boy", but the picture presented can make a difference if the judge is thinking is it nearer 6 or 7?
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That is exactly what I was trying to say, even though it doesn't say it in the rules, and the judge should mark an unplaited dirty horse the same as the plaited bathed one, this is the real world, and it is the whole picture that gets the marks.
 
What has my post to do with my competing?

No, the judges are far more influenced by correct way of going and are not swayed by those things mentioned above - well apart from one it seems - and there is no way of knowing if the judge mentioned above was trained/listed or not.

My posts from start to finish have been about heath & safety and common sense.

BE (please see the link I have posted) do give a whole web page to advise beginners. It would be good to see this consideration carried through to competition without the need to be-little those who do not know the rules (even those who think they do, do not as this thread has proved).

Its not about being right or wrong, but...as mentioned (several times) common sense!
 
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susie2193 said:
That is exactly what I was trying to say, even though it doesn't say it in the rules, and the judge should mark an unplaited dirty horse the same as the plaited bathed one, this is the real world, and it is the whole picture that gets the marks.
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Sorry, but its not. Horses are marked against the scales only...

Rhythm, Suppleness, Contact, Impulsion, Straighntess...and lastly collection.

The rider is marked on their position and correctness (influence) of the aids.

This is all printed on the dressage sheets.

There is no where for the judge to mark for turn out. If the mark is a 6 or 7 the judge would go to a 7 as this is the training. At the higher levels there is now going to be the opportunity to give a .5 mark.

The judge only has a on average 7mins to mark and comment your test, this does not include time to admire your turn out and be swayed by traditions or feel offended. Turning up on time in number order would make them much happier!

Simples!
 
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B-B one thing we do agree on is that this post has gone off on a tangent.

To get back to your original comment about wearing jackets in dressage being a H & S issue. If it is that hot that riding a 6 minute test in a jacket is a health problem, then riding XC in long sleeves and a BP is even more of one. I take your point about riders being on their own having to warm up in their jacket as well, but those same riders will have to finish the XC, ride/walk back to the lorry and hopefully wash their horse off before they think about cooling themselves down.

If you feel that strongly why not post on the BE forum, instead of stating on here that you want them to do something. Although I'm not sure what they can do. Your average person on their own will turn up at and collect their numbers, this may be 2 or 3 hours before they are due to dressage, walk their course, tack up for dressage and ride over to warm up. At which point do you suggest they are told they don't need to wear their jacket ? As you said if they are on their own it is too late by the time they get to the warmup. When they collect thir number the weather may be very different to that when they do their test.
 
Thanks Susie.

Perhaps after reading this, more will ask.

I think I will ask BE if they could add a comment to their 'starting out' page.
 
I paid alot of money for my jacket, and rarely have time to iron the shirt that goes underneath it, whatever the temperature my jacket is staying on!!
 
WOWZER what a post! I can't really remember the OP tbh.

I evented at Rackham on Sun- I wore a jacket for the test and the sj, I wore I short sleeve technical top for all three phases- I drunk lots of water and pretty sure I didn't go purple.

I didn't ask if I could remove my jacket, I didn;t notice what other people did. I don't care. Being told I could not wear my jacket would make no difference. My horses owner made a comment about it but I said I was happy to. I told her not to bother the steward.

I managed to fill in my entry, learn my dressage test, sj and xc course. Drive to the event after a 3.30am start (set my own alarm clock) and bath/plait & tack up my horse. To me the easiest part of the day would of been saying "I'm hot please can I not wear my jacket."

Rider responsibility sorry. Agree whoever said purple faces are to do with fitness. No such thing as bad weather just bad clothing. Go buy a technical top for £30 at a fitness store. and drink a bit of water.

I'm kind of disapointed about this post- I thought it was going to be "I was a steward and no one said thank you" or "such n such event is desperate for help" Not abuse to the stewards to do more- go tell the old doris at the church fair what she is doing wrong at her cake stall instead. Same difference imho.
 
Firstly well done for doing so well coping in the heat - with help? Lucky you!! And such considerate owners.

You are clearly not a first timer so not needing the advice on what you can and cannot do.

Stewards have not been attacked. Would adding a comment to the BE website (as mentioned above) equate to abuse?

Where do Doris and cakes come into it.

Edited to add... And sorry to disappoint!
 
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oldvic said:
With regard to stocks and show jackets, the purpose of a stock is to support your neck. A silk stock is not that expensive and cooler than a cotton or polyester one. If it is that much of a hardship to wear one then wear ratcatcher with a collar and tie. Jackets are now made in modern materials that are lightweight and easy to wear. If you are worried about a little rain then maybe you should take up an indoor sport.
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Its nothing to do with being worried about rain, its the fact that in every other sport, their clothing is very practical - its made specifically of very high tech fabric etc. in a style which doesnt restrict what they're doing. A silly stock which does nothing to "support the neck" - as if a piece of material could stop you getting say whiplash or a broken neck. Jackets have come on a bit over the years but are still not nearly modern and lightweight enough - they still restrict movement (well perhaps the horrifically expensive ones dont but many of us cant afford those). WHY cant we ride in a short sleeved shirt with stock? In my opinion that is still smart and far more practical in hot weather. In the US, I watched at a SJ event with top level riders - ALL of them wore a smart stock shirt, no jacket. It was practical to do so and IMO looked so much better for it. Our sport is still seen as "stuffy" and "snobby", the sooner we embrace modern standards the better.

With regards to the plaiting thing - I definately think that the overall picture DOES have an effect on marks given. How can you not subconciously expect an immaculate, well turned out flashy type to be better than a scruffy, dirty horse? I used to get really good marks on my Welsh Cob who had so much presence, he was dark bay and looked flashy - whereas my little unassuming grey never gets great marks even though he is accurate and consistent. I remember with my Welsh in a test once, I did everything late as he was being so strong (we must have missed every marker!) and it felt absolutely dreadful, yet we won the class with some utterly ridiculous 80%! Looks DO matter in dressage.
 
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I think rules regarding turnout should be far more relaxed. I have ridden in really hot weather in a jacket and without a jacket at BE. It's not just a matter of only having the jacket on for 6 minutes. You have to take on and off number bib - which may not go over hat, & it's not safe to take jacket off whilst on board. So you have to get off, and it's just a faff tbh.

I also cannot afford these fabulous modern fabrics which people are talking about and only have a heavy wool hacking jacket, so being able to warm up and ride without it is a godsend.

I cannot for the life of me see what protection a layer of thin cotton will provide to your arms either, so have always been flummoxed by the long sleeves thing.

Bring on the day we can have dark johds I say!!
 
The thin layer of cotton really does help. Wish I had photos of the poor kid that fell off at a SJ rally last year. She was wearing her PC t shirt, and she fell and skidded on her left side- her entire arm was covered in scrapes and friction burns. Long sleeves rip first, so at least your skin doesn't! Wouldn't jump without at least elbow length sleeves (upper arms are more delicate).
 
When I did steward for dressage at BE, tack checks were always manadatory, as was the quick reminder about boots/whips and tail bandages. Always happy to remind as I know from experience, if you are on your own and focusing on the test, tail bandages can be forgotten (coughs gently!).

Know its off tangent but I still don't understand why people are pressing to NOT make an effort when the compete. Part of BE is the sheer spectacle of it and whatever BE event I have been to, I have always been impressed by the high turnout of horse and rider. I hate it when I have been out to a BSJA show and a large majority of the riders just look plain scruffy and dirty (at the lower levels - not so farther up the scale). BE kit tends to be workmanlike so its not done to the latest/flashiest piece of equipment but people put effort into look smart. Realistically, most one horse amateurs may only run - what 8 - 10 times in a season? It used to cost me nearly £200 per time out 5 years ago as I had to pay for lorry hire so you can be sure I wanted to make the most of it. I now have a trailer but with the high cost of petrol, am nearly back at what it used to cost me to rent a space on a box.

And even when back in the dark ages when I first started out competing, if it was really really hot, I never had any problems asking to remove my jacket..
 
madhossy said:
I sometimes do BD without plaiting, did some BE without plaiting and regularly do RC without plaiting. And I'm never the only one. I don't see what the big deal is.

A clean brushed horse looks perfectly nice to me.

And having written for some dressage judges in the past, they told me they didn't care a fig what people did, they weren't marking them on turnout after all.
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I know this is off topic to the original post, but I absolutely agree 100%

A clean brushed horse with a neatly pulled mane is still a horse, isn't it?! Why do people feel so strongly that they have to 'look the part' when what is being judged is the way your horse has been trained? There is a difference, though, in turning up with a scruffy unbrushed horse covered in stable stains to one who is clean and well-presented but simply not plaited.

giveachance said:
And anyone who has that much of an issue with taking twenty mins to plait a horse should hog it!!:D
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It takes me 45 mins to plait. Granted I don't do it that much, but I HATE it with a passion, and I certainly don't want to hog my horses' manes thank you - they have lovely, neat manes which suit them fine as they are, no need to roll them up into silly little balls! (I know you were being tongue-in-cheek with the hogging comment!)

siennamum said:
It's not just a matter of only having the jacket on for 6 minutes. ........
I also cannot afford these fabulous modern fabrics which people are talking about and only have a heavy wool hacking jacket, so being able to warm up and ride without it is a godsend.
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No, precisely, it isn't. If you are on your own, or have a horse that needs to be kept working, it may well be that your jacket is either on for the entire warm-up + test, or off.

Ditto with the heavy wool jacket, I find it extremely uncomfortable in the heat. I am one of those riders however, who would most definitely ask if I could compete without it if the weather conditions warranted it.

However, I really don't see why so many have taken issue with the OP. On Sunday at MK, when we went to report to the (very friendly) dressage steward, we were told 'oh by the way, you don't need to wear a jacket'. This took her oh, all of about 4 seconds to say and was much appreciated, although we had already realised this was the case by looking around us.

OP is pointing out that a lot don't seem to realise that it is an option and instead suffer on in the heat, warming up (probably without a helper) and getting hotter and hotter. Yes, they should read the rules. No, it isn't the responsibility of the steward to tell them the rules..........
But it doesn't hurt to be friendly and helpful does it?!
 
Jul said:
However, I really don't see why so many have taken issue with the OP.
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I think the reason that people have taken issue with the OP are:

1. She is putting the blame on the organizers and stewards (and these are people who are usually unpaid and hard-working and without whom the eventers would not be able to enjoy their sport), rather than focussing on competitors taking responsibility for knowing the rules. I agree it doesn't take long for a steward to mention about jackets, but where do we stop - do we also have to make sure they know not to start before the bell, that they mustn't use their voice during the test, etc., in addition to the normal procedures of checking they have taken off boots/bandages, dropped their whips and all this while other people are queueing up to ask where their arena is, are we running on time, how many to go before them, can they slot in later because the lorry broke down etc. Most stewards are helpful and friendly and will help lone competitors by removing boots, holding whips etc., if asked, but they shouldn't be castigated on a public forum if they omit to remind competitors that they can remove their jackets in hot weather!

2. She is making it out that the wearing of jackets for dressage in hot weather is a health and safety risk, which seems weird when we know that the competitors have to then go onto complete a XC course in a body protector. (If someone's health and/or fitness isn't good enough to cope with the heat, surely it is better to find that out during the dressage than when they are halfway round a XC course!)

If the OP had just posted along the lines of "Just to let people know, they can ask for permission to ride without jackets without being penalised", it wouldn't have sparked such discussion!
 
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With apologies to all who know me, I think I must be a dinosaur :) As a BE steward/PC committee member/ex-competitor, I would just like to say the following:

Competitors should ask if they want to take their jackets off. It is not for anyone else - official or otherwise - to act as their nanny and second-guess their wishes. There are more pressing H&S issues than jackets in hot weather, and as has already been said, you are not talking about spending hours in the jackets. Frankly, unfit and overweight competitors are far more of a worry (and I speak as an unfit and overweight (ex) competitor!)

Plaiting is a matter of respect for the landowners, the organisers and your other competitors. It's the same as hunting.

There is nothing wrong with insisting on certain standards of dress - it doesn't need to be expensive or brand new, but clean and in keeping with the norm.

And don't get me started on coloured tack or bling....

Right - I'm back off to my cave now. Anyone care to join me?
 
The system of dress will eventually be forced to change. Summers are getting hotter and sooner or later there will be somebody with serious heat exhaustion. Perhaps only when there is an accident will BE and other associations sit up and listen.

Here in France we are often confronted by very high temperatures variations (we've competed in 39degC), but common sense prevails and dress codes can change ad-hoc. FFE approved short sleeves in summer and FFE approved waterproof jackets in winter - simple , pragmatic and FFE make some money out of it.

Apologies in advance, but my relatively short exposure to competing in the UK suggest that it is run by a fairly conservative bunch that are resistant to change of any type, even if the need is blindingly obvious.
regs Richard
 
rvb99 said:
The system of dress will eventually be forced to change. Summers are getting hotter and sooner or later there will be somebody with serious heat exhaustion. Perhaps only when there is an accident will BE and other associations sit up and listen.

Here in France we are often confronted by very high temperatures variations (we've competed in 39degC), but common sense prevails and dress codes can change ad-hoc. FFE approved short sleeves in summer and FFE approved waterproof jackets in winter - simple , pragmatic and FFE make some money out of it.

Apologies in advance, but my relatively short exposure to competing in the UK suggest that it is run by a fairly conservative bunch that are resistant to change of any type, even if the need is blindingly obvious.
regs Richard
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I don't see what BE has to sit up and listen too. It is quite permissible to ride without jackets with the BE steward's approval. They are not going to say no when it is very hot/humid. The actual temperature is irrelevant, it is the humidity that is the problem. Having said that, nobody had a problem in Hong Kong, Atlanta or Barcelona which get far hotter than here, so it doesn't need to become the norm, just for really hot/humid weather. Equally long sleeves for xc are not compulsory, just recommended, so there is no problem there. Therefore I think BE have the balance between upholding standards but being sensible.
 
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