BE -Calling Dressage Stewards/Organizers !!!

TGM said:
I think the reason that people have taken issue with the OP are:

1. She is putting the blame on the organizers and stewards (and these are people who are usually unpaid and hard-working and without whom the eventers would not be able to enjoy their sport), rather than focussing on competitors taking responsibility for knowing the rules. I agree it doesn't take long for a steward to mention about jackets, but where do we stop - do we also have to make sure they know not to start before the bell, that they mustn't use their voice during the test, etc., in addition to the normal procedures of checking they have taken off boots/bandages, dropped their whips and all this while other people are queueing up to ask where their arena is, are we running on time, how many to go before them, can they slot in later because the lorry broke down etc. Most stewards are helpful and friendly and will help lone competitors by removing boots, holding whips etc., if asked, but they shouldn't be castigated on a public forum if they omit to remind competitors that they can remove their jackets in hot weather!

!
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Yes it takes a lot of hard working people to make it work, but it is also expensive for the competitor. They are not getting anything for free!

Other disciplines do not feel the need to check boots/bandages, whips, etc...this is left to the judge.

Too much nannying perhaps?;)
 
TGM said:
I think the reason that people have taken issue with the OP are:

1. She is putting the blame on the organizers and stewards (and these are people who are usually unpaid and hard-working and without whom the eventers would not be able to enjoy their sport), rather than focussing on competitors taking responsibility for knowing the rules. I agree it doesn't take long for a steward to mention about jackets, but where do we stop - do we also have to make sure they know not to start before the bell, that they mustn't use their voice during the test, etc., in addition to the normal procedures of checking they have taken off boots/bandages, dropped their whips and all this while other people are queueing up to ask where their arena is, are we running on time, how many to go before them, can they slot in later because the lorry broke down etc. Most stewards are helpful and friendly and will help lone competitors by removing boots, holding whips etc., if asked, but they shouldn't be castigated on a public forum if they omit to remind competitors that they can remove their jackets in hot weather!

2. She is making it out that the wearing of jackets for dressage in hot weather is a health and safety risk, which seems weird when we know that the competitors have to then go onto complete a XC course in a body protector. (If someone's health and/or fitness isn't good enough to cope with the heat, surely it is better to find that out during the dressage than when they are halfway round a XC course!)

If the OP had just posted along the lines of "Just to let people know, they can ask for permission to ride without jackets without being penalised", it wouldn't have sparked such discussion!
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Agree!
 
B-B said:
Other disciplines do not feel the need to check boots/bandages, whips, etc...this is left to the judge.

Too much nannying perhaps?;)
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Damn this forum! I just typed out a long reply and lost it... :mad:

The short of it was, and I have stewarded for BE dressage several times, that the ultimate responsibility lies with the competitior to know the rules. (I read the rule book cover to cover when I joined BE!)
We can help people, but only if they want to be helped or ask for help!
 
B-B said:
Yes it takes a lot of hard working people to make it work, but it is also expensive for the competitor. They are not getting anything for free!

Other disciplines do not feel the need to check boots/bandages, whips, etc...this is left to the judge.

Too much nannying perhaps?;)
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It is expensive for the competitor but volunteers give up a whole day/w/e for nothing but the love of the sport or to help a friend so that competitors can partake in their sport. The world doesn't owe competitors and very little is free. Riders do it because they want to compete, it is their choice - pay for your hobby and abide by the rules or don't play!!

Tack regulations are far less in other disciplines so it is easier to check although it is a steward/vet that makes boot and leg checks in show jumping, not the judges. Dressage judges still keep an eye on the riders and make a closer check if they think they need to.
 
Am I the only one here who has 2 jackets? A tweed one for cold weather and a lightweight plain one for hot weather?

OP asked why people were wearing tweed in hot weather. Why indeed! I wouldn't dream of wearing tweed in hot weather!

I find it bizarre that you need sleeves for SJ but not for XC. Why's that?
 
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oldvic said:
I don't see what BE has to sit up and listen too. It is quite permissible to ride without jackets with the BE steward's approval. They are not going to say no when it is very hot/humid. The actual temperature is irrelevant, it is the humidity that is the problem. Having said that, nobody had a problem in Hong Kong, Atlanta or Barcelona which get far hotter than here, so it doesn't need to become the norm, just for really hot/humid weather. Equally long sleeves for xc are not compulsory, just recommended, so there is no problem there. Therefore I think BE have the balance between upholding standards but being sensible.
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The comparison with sports professional is I am afraid quite ridiculous. Most BE members are amateurs and many are teenagers with bodies that react faster and much more adversely to overheating conditions. The stewards approval is unnecessary red tape that leads to confusion. What do you do in practice? you get a certain % of riders to ask before the stewards react. No, the practical and common sense approach is for the organisers and stewards to make a decision.

As I said, BE can carry on ignoring the problem, or recognise that the weather is changing and do something about it. It is a very simple issue of risk and liability management that is practiced by millions of organisations and companies around the world. Simply ignoring the problem or passing the responsibility to the riders will not wash in the case of a serious incident.

BTW There seems little point in prescribing other safety equipment for riders, when the biggest safety concern on a hot day could be through inadequate dress code.

regs

Richard
 
MagicMelon said:
In the US, I watched at a SJ event with top level riders - ALL of them wore a smart stock shirt, no jacket. It was practical to do so and IMO looked so much better for it.
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Jumper riders are allowed to wear polo shirts during the week, even in the main ring, but still have to wear "formal" dress on the weekend/for Stake classes. Hunter riders ALWAYS have to wear a jacket, as it's like showing and appearance counts for a lot.

There are also a few "alternative" (read unrecognised/unaffiliated) sj competitions that, because they are not bound by National/FEI rules encourage riders to compete in polo shirts, usually in their farm colours or similar. So like xc colours.

Btw, I'm surprised they don't take tack check a bit more seriously here - you wouldn't go to an event or a dressage competition in North America without having your tack checked by a designated Steward. BUT, in line with FEI regs it's now permissible, even preferred, to have the check done after the test.
 
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rvb99 said:
The comparison with sports professional is I am afraid quite ridiculous. Most BE members are amateurs and many are teenagers with bodies that react faster and much more adversely to overheating conditions. The stewards approval is unnecessary red tape that leads to confusion. What do you do in practice? you get a certain % of riders to ask before the stewards react. No, the practical and common sense approach is for the organisers and stewards to make a decision.

As I said, BE can carry on ignoring the problem, or recognise that the weather is changing and do something about it. It is a very simple issue of risk and liability management that is practiced by millions of organisations and companies around the world. Simply ignoring the problem or passing the responsibility to the riders will not wash in the case of a serious incident.

BTW There seems little point in prescribing other safety equipment for riders, when the biggest safety concern on a hot day could be through inadequate dress code.

regs

Richard
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The steward's approval is not unnecessary red tape. There has to be a degree of uniformity and it need only take one person to ask. In practise it will probably be a rider or one of their team asks the chief dressage steward who radios to the BE steward who will give the answer straight away. If their is no regulation then people will just not bother, standards drop and the discipline required of a sportsperson is out the window. Before you say that we are talking about amateurs, ALL sportspeople need self-discipline especially in a high risk sport and they need to take responsibility for themselves, not just what they wear but in how they ride i.e. safely.
BE are not ignoring the problem because there is a contingency for very hot weather so the dress code is not inadequate.
 
Am I the only one who thinks this thread has become ridiculous. Nobody has said that BE refuse to allow jackets off in hot weather, so why say BE needs to wake up to the hotter weather we now have in the UK.

I like BE events because of the traditional wear, I like PC because of the tradition and I like hunting so shoot me FGS!

I dislike the often long an unkempt hair at BS but have no beef with those that choose to wear it like that.

Read the rules, stick to them if you don't like them don't participate (please)!
 
oldvic said:
If their is no regulation then people will just not bother, standards drop and the discipline required of a sportsperson is out the window. .
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I never suggested no regulation, I suggest a single decision made by the organisers so that everybody is aware and their is no confusion.

Again you seem to mix-up those people performing a sport on part time basis and children with fully trained sport s professionals Clearly, there is limited understanding of the physical differences , which is rather worrying.
 
NR99 said:
Am I the only one who thinks this thread has become ridiculous. Nobody has said that BE refuse to allow jackets off in hot weather, so why say BE needs to wake up to the hotter weather we now have in the UK.

I like BE events because of the traditional wear, I like PC because of the tradition and I like hunting so shoot me FGS!

I dislike the often long an unkempt hair at BS but have no beef with those that choose to wear it like that.

Read the rules, stick to them if you don't like them don't participate (please)!
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Dress code comparisons with BS has nothing to do with the underlying issue, which is one of safety It is upto BE to come up with a suitable polcy that is easy to administer, maximises safety and still meets an acceptable dress code.

This is a very very simply issue of risk and liability management. Ignore it at your peril. Change will happen, it is just a case of whether it is forced by an incident and the insurers, or whether it will be properly considered and managed by BE.
 
Hang on a minute, I thought this thread was about giving/getting permission to not wear a jacket at BE? Since when 'risk and liability management' come into it..?

I expect it is the same for BD and BS re jackets in hot weather. Someone has to be the one to make the decision. Why are eventers any different to dressage riders or show jumpers?
The mind boggles at some of the reactions on this post. If it is a very hot day and you don't want to wear your jacket then ask, it really is that simple! As mentioned before, if you can't make it through a 5 min test without getting heat stroke then how are you expecting to make it through the XC without hospitalisation??

Perhaps we should all take up knitting, at least if it's too hot/too wet you can just carry on indoors!!! ;)
 
I, too, can hardly believe how this thread has somehow turned into criticism of BE and threats about liability and risk management. :O :O
fwiw, i have NEVER been out of breath after a dressage test, however hard i've had to work, although i've been a bit sweaty...! otoh a xc round on a v hot day will leave me dripping with sweat and sometimes a bit out of breath. if anyone really thinks that

"the biggest safety concern on a hot day could be through inadequate dress code"

then words almost fail me. if a rider is not fit/conditioned/hydrated enough to stand a 5 minute dressage test in a jacket, they're definitely not fit enough to go xc in the same conditions!

there is a policy, riders can ask, if they don't know the rules that is their problem... i don't see what more there is to it? BE are NOT forcing riders to swelter in jackets on a hot day!

btw, there are a lot of more pressing safety issues than whether someone has a jacket on for dressage imho...
 
kerilli said:
I, too, can hardly believe how this thread has somehow turned into criticism of BE and threats about liability and risk management. :O :O
fwiw, i have NEVER been out of breath after a dressage test, however hard i've had to work, although i've been a bit sweaty...! otoh a xc round on a v hot day will leave me dripping with sweat and sometimes a bit out of breath. if anyone really thinks that

"the biggest safety concern on a hot day could be through inadequate dress code"

then words almost fail me. if a rider is not fit/conditioned/hydrated enough to stand a 5 minute dressage test in a jacket, they're definitely not fit enough to go xc in the same conditions!

there is a policy, riders can ask, if they don't know the rules that is their problem... i don't see what more there is to it? BE are NOT forcing riders to swelter in jackets on a hot day!

btw, there are a lot of more pressing safety issues than whether someone has a jacket on for dressage imho...
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This is a matter of life and death, and riders can't be seen taking responsibility for their own welfare! Jeez, kerilli... :P
 
Lolo said:
This is a matter of life and death, and riders can't be seen taking responsibility for their own welfare! Jeez, kerilli... :P
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I risk death at the horse eating pots of flowers around the dressage arena. Can I have these removed under H&S...?! Im concerned for my welfare
 
I don't think I haves mentioned anywhere whethernthis is limited to be or to dressage. Clearly many of the comments show a naive understanding of heat effects, particularly on kids, and an even greater naivity in the obligatory responsibilities of the organisers. The repeated claims about a rider having the ability to ask permission will not transfer
responsibility.
Finally this thread let's me start as a newcomer to understand how much BE is dominated by people that are living in the previous century in respect of management and organisational practice. Despite the ridicule and the heads in the sand , the first accident
will dominate policy from then on. I'm sure it will be a great laugh.
 
Erm re; The long sleeves/short sleeves thing; I used to do BE xc in a t shirt, so I don't actually think there is a rule about sleeves, or there wasn't when I did it.
I am not really that old (honest) but tbh I wouldn't turn out at a show/event/competition with a shirt/tie/stock and jacket regardless of the heat. I can't honestly see that riding a 6 minute dressage test with a jacket is such a tribulation. Get a grip for God's sake if you don't like the dress code or expected standard of turnout then don't bother going.
It is respectful to the judges to make an effort with your turnout, and if you haven't enough pride to look smart then perhaps you need to look at a different sport
 
Yet again, the visual image before safety. Are you a medical professional? Clearly not, because most people will not recognise they have heat exhaustion until they actually collapse!
 
The respect for judges thing has been mentioned several times.

It has absolutely no bearing on the marks and the judge is writing up one sheet while the writer is trying to find out if the next rider is who they are supposed to be. The test is started...the judge has approx 7min to give you a reflection of your test in words and numbers and is writing up the summary while the next rider approaches....

They also have to keep an eye out for whips, boots, etc.

7mins.

They are focused on the way of going accoriding to the scale of training which do not mention turn out. There is nowhere on the sheet to deduct or award marks for turn out and are looking for the higher mark. So if its a 6/7 they are trained to go UP to 7.

Ask how many were plaited and how many were not at the end of juding up to 40 horses without a couple of short breaks not long enough to make it across the field to stand in line at the portaloo, and they wont be able to tell you. T

Unplaited does not mean dirty and scruffy - not sure what the Whittakers would make of that idea!

But then you all knew that .
 
B-B said:
So you are a judge?

They do the same for BE as they do for BD - within the rules.
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no, but i have written for a lot of judges.
they keep an eye out, and will do something about it if they think there is an infringement.
dressage stewards usually do a quick visual check too... i was told to when i did it.
they used to check the bit manually but i for one wasn't too happy about them sticking their hands in other people's horses' mouths and then in my horse's mouth straight afterwards, chance of spreading infection etc.
 
kerilli said:
no, but i have written for a lot of judges.
they keep an eye out, and will do something about it if they think there is an infringement.
dressage stewards usually do a quick visual check too... i was told to when i did it.
they used to check the bit manually but i for one wasn't too happy about them sticking their hands in other people's horses' mouths and then in my horse's mouth straight afterwards, chance of spreading infection etc.
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So you should also know that the judge is checking more than the rider, as they do for BE and BD.

Strange that only BE need to do this sort of thing at every comp. Especially in view of the comments above about it being the riders job to know and abide by the rules....then not trusting them to do so!
 
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rvb99 said:
I don't think I haves mentioned anywhere whethernthis is limited to be or to dressage. Clearly many of the comments show a naive understanding of heat effects, particularly on kids, and an even greater naivity in the obligatory responsibilities of the organisers. The repeated claims about a rider having the ability to ask permission will not transfer
responsibility.
Finally this thread let's me start as a newcomer to understand how much BE is dominated by people that are living in the previous century in respect of management and organisational practice. Despite the ridicule and the heads in the sand , the first accident
will dominate policy from then on. I'm sure it will be a great laugh.
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first of all, NONE of us on here speak for BE, so i have absolutely no idea what you are going on about... if you have a genuine concern then perhaps you should raise it on the BE forum, or contact someone direct at BE.

i hate to say it, but accidents don't dominate BE policy much, at least in my experience of the sport. this is a RISK sport. people die doing it, and yet the sport rolls on... and the same risks are still there. i've been at an event where we still jumped the jump that someone died at earlier in the day. that's a fact of the sport. so, imho fussing about riders getting overheated really won't impress those of us who have been involved in the sport long enough to have seen some terrible things happen, and yet the sport rolls on. sorry.

it all comes down to RIDER RESPONSIBILITY (or perhaps parental responsibility if we are talking about children), and it is the rider's responsibility to be hydrated enough, fit enough, dressed appropriately, etc.
 
rvb99 - Are you talking about the wearing or not wearing of jackets on a very hot/humid day? Because if you are, you don't seem to be making much sense..

BE do allow you to ride without a jacket for dressage and show jumping so I fail to see how 'there will soon be an accident that will bring in a new policy'..?
Eventing has been going on for years, and on hot summers days too. I remember competing on the hottest day back in 2003 (it was 37.5 degrees that day!) and I don't recall any serious incidents due to the heat..

Perhaps you could share with us what steps you would suggest BE take regarding 'risk and liability management' when it comes to the wearing of jackets on a very hot day..?
 
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