BE Safety vid - info, and suggestions wanted please.

kerilli

kerilli

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I received an email about my/our comments on the other thread. Paul Graham of BE says that, firstly, "the making of the film was at no cost to members", so that's a big plus for those who commented about our money being wasted etc.
They made a conscious decision not to use footage of 'real riders' doing it badly, as it would make it harder in future for those riders to get owners and rides, and sponsorship. (hmm, can't help thinking this is slightly missing the point, surely we are talking Safety and therefore being shown ones faults, and shown how to improve, is more important... we aren't talking about being rubbish at dressage after all, it's a bit more vital than that!)
I still think they could have found riders prepared to attend a training session and willing to have it video'd and used. Oh, well...
Right.
Also, he has asked me to ask you to brainstorm and be positive and proactive, instead of criticising (as ever... oops, i'll take that one on the chin!) So, practical ideas which you think will make a difference, a list of 10 things to present to BE that are cost neutral to members, that promote safety and will actively encourage people to seek coaching assistance to improve how they ride cross country.
Over. To. You. Lot.
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*sticks thinking cap on*
I'll chuck one in first:
Suggest that everyone asks a friend to video them and watches it, ideally perhaps with horsey friends, and begs them to be brutally honest and to offer cc. The video, and a critical/educated eye to watch it, is the MOST invaluable tool imho.
 
A very simple idea that costs nothing- check riders place the saddle BEHIND the shoulder blades when tacking up. Time and again at BE events (and elsewhere) i see saddles sat on top of the shoulder blades. This restricts movement and can cause the horse to stop/jump awkwardly. It is dangerous when jumping down drop fences too, for the riders balance and the horses comfort.

Not sure if thats exactly what you were wanting but even paying attention to a small detail like this would improve safety by having a happier horse able to use its full range of movement and a rider in better balance to the horses body.
 
teddyt, i echo that one. also, it puts the saddle and rider too far up the horse's body, which makes it very hard to have an effective driving seat to a fence, since you are more than 2/3 forward... even with a secure seat and powerful legs you are just perched in the wrong place! much more likely to have a stop because you're ineffective, and much more likely to fall off if you do have a stop, because of where you're sitting.
nice one!
 
a 'how to' guide on different types of fences eg you often see posts on here asking how to jump a corner, how to get a coffin canter so maybe a how to ride a...

trakhena
bank
open ditch
corner
conbination etc something like that might help people at lower levels who hadn't even thoguht about riding those type of fences any differently to a regular roll top.....

I know that video covered those types of obsticles but it just said this is good this is bad, it wasn't instructional
 
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a 'how to' guide on different types of fences eg you often see posts on here asking how to jump a corner, how to get a coffin canter so maybe a how to ride a...

trakhena
bank
open ditch
corner
conbination etc something like that might help people at lower levels who hadn't even thoguht about riding those type of fences any differently to a regular roll top.....

I know that video covered those types of obsticles but it just said this is good this is bad, it wasn't instructional

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Yeah, or even a series of books
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It could include tips from top riders such as at fence X slipping reins, or something else
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I liked the old junior accreditation system.
I'm in favour of everyone having to be assessed by a BE accredited trainer before being allowed to start BE.
I remember my accreditation with Caroline Creighton- it taught me a huge amount and she was able to recommened what level I should start at and where good runs would be.
 
Not sure if this would cost too much, but a video of a good trainer/rider walking the viewer through a course. Maybe pick popular, actual courses at the lower levels which would help people get into good habits re safety early on. A bit like a masterclass but without the horse/rider (to save on money and avoid the issue of embarassing people by showing their mistakes). He/she would talk about angles, approaches, strides, speed, etc.

Would there be any use in that?
 
Right apologies if this ends up a long one but . . . . .

I assume this video was aimed at me, as I've been stopped XC this season and asked to retire (it's definitely NOT something I'm proud of but in this situation entirely relevant, but please don't judge me on this it was a one off incident and since then I have tackled the problem and safely completed another 3 runs on top of several others before then) but in all honesty the video is completely missing the point. I think we all know how we should ride and see certain riders eg WFP who are most of the time perfectly balanced etc. and aspire to ride like them. It's not that we don't realise how we should ride more than that we don't know how, however much I'd love a little book to read that made you ride like a pro I know it ain't going to happen
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It's more down to as you say getting someone to video us, for self analysis on top of plenty of regular lessons. Personally I think BE should be encouraging us to attend training sessions, both practical and theory, they have organised specifically aimed at a grassroots member. I know some people say it's down to us to organise our own training but for the price we pay it would be nice if they did some sort of area training style thing on a weekend monthly through the winter.

Secondly I would like a guide, booklet style thing on when to retire and call it a day. In my experience this year my horse was going too fast as he'd slipped and minorly (sp?) studded himself but I made entirely the wrong judgement and continued despite having difficulty to steady up and get the line I wanted to each fence. I now know at this point I should have retired and regret not doing so. Basically just stating the basic things that you'd think are downright obvious but on the day you just hope they'll go away. eg. lack of confidence, struggling with the ground, slipping and a bad fall.

And perhaps also a booklet on fitness - we all know the speed is 450 mpm but do we all take into account steadying up for fences when we train our horses? This would hopefully discourage approaching fences at speed in order to make the time.

Oh and btw they are more than welcome to come and film my collecting ring falls next season if they'd like a video on how not to do it
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[ QUOTE ]
a 'how to' guide on different types of fences eg you often see posts on here asking how to jump a corner, how to get a coffin canter so maybe a how to ride a...

trakhena
bank
open ditch
corner
conbination etc something like that might help people at lower levels who hadn't even thoguht about riding those type of fences any differently to a regular roll top.....

I know that video covered those types of obsticles but it just said this is good this is bad, it wasn't instructional

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sorry...wasn't there videos done by Lucinda Green etc on this...and there are lots of books (WFP, Blyth Tait...etc)

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I would LIKE to say...
No-one allowed to spend money on expensive and unnecessary kit - 5-point breastplates, single flap saddles, £100 breeches, Patey hats, expensive Italian boots etc. etc. - until they can demonstrate that they are good enough that the money wouldn't be more wisely spent on XC lessons. Am beginning to despair that the brand new £400 boots could have bought 10 XC lessons with a BE trainer instead yet no-one sees it that way.

Unfortunately I'm as guilty as most on most counts. It does strike me as laughable though that when I'm dressed for dressage I'm probably wearing £500 of kit when the equivalent in lessons would have served me much better
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BE should be encouraging us to attend training sessions, both practical and theory, they have organised specifically aimed at a grassroots member. ..... if they did some sort of area training style thing on a weekend monthly through the winter.

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What they should do is a shorter (eg 2.5 hours - 1 hour ridden, 1.5 theory) more regular (eg monthly) and widely sprerad (in every county) version on their BE CDT days. I went on one earlier this season because I thought it would be a good kick off to the year, and it was mega, BUT at £70 a pop I won't be doing one again next year, if they did a cheaper version of this so you could do a few through the winter, the instructor could get to know you and your horse this would help inexperienced riders progress ready for the season start.

I went on one to see what it was like having BE-ed for 5 seasons on 2 different horse I wasn't sure how much I would get out of it, but I came away with a note book full of notes on every aspect of the sport.
 
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BE should be encouraging us to attend training sessions, both practical and theory, they have organised specifically aimed at a grassroots member. ..... if they did some sort of area training style thing on a weekend monthly through the winter.

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What they should do is a shorter (eg 2.5 hours - 1 hour ridden, 1.5 theory) more regular (eg monthly) and widely sprerad (in every county) version on their BE CDT days. I went on one earlier this season because I thought it would be a good kick off to the year, and it was mega, BUT at £70 a pop I won't be doing one again next year, if they did a cheaper version of this so you could do a few through the winter, the instructor could get to know you and your horse this would help inexperienced riders progress ready for the season start.

I went on one to see what it was like having BE-ed for 5 seasons on 2 different horse I wasn't sure how much I would get out of it, but I came away with a note book full of notes on every aspect of the sport.

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That's the sort of thing I mean but couldn't remember what they were called
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I would really like the chance to go to one of these but I somehow don't think they'll let me skip school for it plus I'd have to travel miles
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a 'how to' guide on different types of fences eg you often see posts on here asking how to jump a corner, how to get a coffin canter so maybe a how to ride a...

trakhena
bank
open ditch
corner
conbination etc something like that might help people at lower levels who hadn't even thoguht about riding those type of fences any differently to a regular roll top.....

I know that video covered those types of obsticles but it just said this is good this is bad, it wasn't instructional

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry...wasn't there videos done by Lucinda Green etc on this...and there are lots of books (WFP, Blyth Tait...etc)

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well then if the leg work has been done for them maybe all BE need to do is endorse those books?....

*rushes for pen to scribble down a how to xc book coz it looks like a potential money spinner!*
 
yeah I would love to see regular training sessions around each county - kinda like PC style where it could end up being cheaper and you get to know a group of friends in your area
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and you get to know a group of friends in your area
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that would be mega as even though roughly local people seem to compete at local events I don't REALLY know anyone that local to me that does BE.....BILLY NO MATES!
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If BE could foster a better sense of community then tips, training, advise would spread quicker throughout the BE community and that would probubly reduce the risk of people training alone thinking they are ready entering a totally inappropriate event/level and having an accident.

The most help and feedback about BE events and courses I have ever had has been since I joined the HHO forum this year before that I was just going by the mag and what I knew of events from previous years!

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Jules, build a better sense of community to pool the knowledge of all riders to raise awareness, and riding capability accross the country!

Are you with me comrade?
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the LG book is the best for a "XC how to" imho, it was my BIBLE when i stepped up to Int and then to A, as my trainer very rarely walked courses with me - once or twice ever i think, he just couldn't be bothered, great choice!
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the other thing i wanted to suggest at the BE Safety meeting, but wimped out as i thought i'd already said far too much (moi?!), when they were talking about Rider Reps, the proposed Coach Reps, etc, was that I used to just ask a pro if i was worried about how to ride a particular fence. as long as you make sure they look as if they have a few minutes spare, and you ask nicely, i've found that 99% of people are very willing to help. i thought BE could really encourage this, ask all the Pros to be as approachable and helpful as possible if someone does ask them for advice. the Rider Rep system isn't enough, one person who also happens to be riding is rarely going to be in the right place at the right time with a spare 5 mins, imho. but if we could have ALL the Pros (and all experienced riders really) as willing advisors, how much better would that be?
maybe i'm living in cloud cuckoo land with that one, but i received such helpful advice from some absolutely wonderful riders who were so generous with their time. (especial thanks to a certain Mr Mark Todd... but i won't tell that story again...!)

the idea about regular regional training sessions is a really good idea, for riders and for spectators.)

GB, i'm with you about all the gear and no idea... just couldn't resist the lure of all that lovely kit at the time though!
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and i've always been guilty of spending loads of time and money on dr and sj training, and pretty much just getting on with it as far as most of my xc training, because it was always my best phase by far... oops. and i really didn't know i wasn't good enough at the time, because it felt great (because i didn't know any better!) and it was working well enough. this is a big problem, bet i'm not alone with that one...
LG clinics are always worth the effort, as are Ian Stark's, but many of the others i've been taught by really weren't that great... that's the trouble too, just because someone is a great rider does NOT make them a great instructor (in any discipline), and what motivates 1 pupil might not work with another - some need encouragement, some need a rollicking, etc etc etc.
 
My suggestion would be for BE to take maybe three or four riders of mixed ages/abilities but who basically have fundamental problems or those probs which have been identified as compromising safety etc...
These people are videoed at the outset, problems identified, then they undergo a course of instruction to help overcome these problems -including exercises to go away and practise... They are videoed at each training session, highlighting improvements ..areas for more improvement etc etc... This would form a video diary which people could follow and hopefully learn alongside..

It would not be a negative (or should not be) experience as the whole purpose is to move people forwards and demonstrate how training benefits the individual etc. etc.

..and I would be happy to volunteer and even pay for the training!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I liked the old junior accreditation system.
I'm in favour of everyone having to be assessed by a BE accredited trainer before being allowed to start BE.
I remember my accreditation with Caroline Creighton- it taught me a huge amount and she was able to recommened what level I should start at and where good runs would be.

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i totally agree with this. it came up at the Safety Meeting, and believe it or not was firmly vetoed, because IF someone passed a rider as, say, "good enough to go and do BE100 in their opinion" and then that rider went and had an accident at BE100, they would be able to sue the accrediting trainer, as somehow responsible for what happened...
*wanders off muttering about this ridiculously litigous society where nobody seems capable of taking the blame for their own cock-ups or misfortunes any more...*
it's a miracle we're all allowed to go xc at all any more...!
 
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My suggestion would be for BE to take maybe three or four riders of mixed ages/abilities but who basically have fundamental problems or those probs which have been identified as compromising safety etc...
These people are videoed at the outset, problems identified, then they undergo a course of instruction to help overcome these problems -including exercises to go away and practise... They are videoed at each training session, highlighting improvements ..areas for more improvement etc etc... This would form a video diary which people could follow and hopefully learn alongside..

It would not be a negative (or should not be) experience as the whole purpose is to move people forwards and demonstrate how training benefits the individual etc. etc.

..and I would be happy to volunteer and even pay for the training!

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great idea Vrin, i think this would have to be only for those willing to volunteer and also to PAY for the training, as BE apparently don't want to spend Members' money on this...
 
I applaud BE for attempting to do something about the safety issues in the sport by putting more of the onus on the rider. However, the video does not address so many of the issues (hooking, going too slowly into a fence, unfit rider/horses). It also doesn't take into consideration that different horses need to approach jumps in different ways to be safe!

I am not competing at BE and won't do for a while because I haven't got enough experience to deal with different problems/react to different situations on a xc course at the moment. However, I'm a real eventing geek and read lots of books, watch old footage etc, but absolutely nothing improves my riding more than lessons (and being a geek I make copious notes after them!)

Even at my low level, the video didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know/couldn't have already seen. The only way I can see myself being ready for BE is by attending things like clinics/training sessions, where I learn not only from constructve criticism of my own riding on my own horse, but also by watching others 'getting it wrong' and how they are told by a trainer to react/improve their jumping. Having the opportunity to discuss problems etc with other riders at a similar level would be fantastic.

Sorry - that ended up really long!
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Going against the grain here, I actually thought the video was very good, although aimed at the beginner rather than the amateur.

What I liked about it was that they showed the good riding with the bad, although I would have prefered it if they had used amateur riders, because obviously the pros are good!

What I really wanted to see was the looking at jumping too slowly (like dunaguer at burghley 2008) and the dangers of that - they could use videos from thrills and spills dvd.

I thought it was actually very informative, although for combination fences it just did speed and not collection - something very important.
 
I think the community idea is key - most sensible people appreciate constructive criticism.

The booklet idea is great, books by famous riders are all very well, but they're a commercial enterprise for that rider and usually not cheap. Be could even publish guidelines (that word again) on XC riding as downloads from their website - it would be cheaper.

How about some sort of mentoring system? Its basically what we all do for each other on here, could BE keep a list of individuals willing to offer tips, advice and maybe visits and companionship at events. No one need be an expert, just another set of eyes. I'm sure a lot of us would be willing to help out someone local, give them advice on appropriate events and be a friend if they were attending the same competitions.

How often have we realised we'd been parked next to a fellow HHOer *after* the event. BE just needs to provide a method of communication....
 
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I applaud BE for attempting to do something about the safety issues in the sport by putting more of the onus on the rider. However, the video does not address so many of the issues (hooking, going too slowly into a fence, unfit rider/horses). It also doesn't take into consideration that different horses need to approach jumps in different ways to be safe!

I am not competing at BE and won't do for a while because I haven't got enough experience to deal with different problems/react to different situations on a xc course at the moment. However, I'm a real eventing geek and read lots of books, watch old footage etc, but absolutely nothing improves my riding more than lessons (and being a geek I make copious notes after them!)

Even at my low level, the video didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know/couldn't have already seen. The only way I can see myself being ready for BE is by attending things like clinics/training sessions, where I learn not only from constructve criticism of my own riding on my own horse, but also by watching others 'getting it wrong' and how they are told by a trainer to react/improve their jumping. Having the opportunity to discuss problems etc with other riders at a similar level would be fantastic.

Sorry - that ended up really long!
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I think you must be my twin...!
 
Course walks with higher level riders. I think they do this at Training level, but why not at Intro and PN too? I'd pay a couple of pounds to do a group course walk with someone comepeting at a higher level, and saves you then having to be brave and ask a pro or someone random if you had a dedicated person?

I also like the idea of a mentor type person for first timers and/or people going up a level for the first time- that way you could check that they understood the safety rules such as leaving the course at walk etc if they are new to BE? Also gives them a point of contact?
 
Another thing that it did not include was seeing a stride, I know of someone who rides a little 14HH welsh BE and cannot for the life of them see a stride but will not take advice form anyone, at an event this year she took out a whole stride to an Intro table that was very wide and the pony only landed a foot out from it. Fair enough if you then accept your mistake but she then bought the pro pic of the pony taking off, from miles out.

Another person nearly had her horse fall jumping out of the water and came back to the lorrys telling people how well she'd done to stay on when you actually look at the pictures she took a stride out and the horse ends up with all 4 of it's feet within a square foot.
 
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